Going under 1/30 on a 50mm lense

[kayla_kuris]

<p>Hi,<br>

I know that as far as shutter speed goes, you're not supposed to go under the reciprocal of the focal length of your lens or else you'll probably get a shakey image.<br>

Last week, I put 400 iso film in, which I thought would be sufficient for indoor photos. To my surprise when I got the pictures back, quite a bit were way underexposed, even with the lens wide open to f/2 and the shutter speed at 1/60. I'm finding it quite difficult to get picture exposed correctly in lower light.<br>

Yesterday I made an idiot move and loaded some Kodak Ektar 100 into my camera. I mostly shoot pictures inside, rarely outside, but still would like to experience the fine grain of slower films. Is it possible for me to go under 1/30 for shutter speed? Any tips overall? I'm getting a flash unit for Christmas, so I'm assuming that will help big time. I'm also getting a Yashica Mat EM, and apparently the focal length for that is 80mm. Would I need to lug a tripod around for that all the time?<br>

Any help is appreciated, thanks in advance. Sorry if this was difficult to follow</p>

[William Kahn]

<p>Kayla, if you're doing a lot of shooting in low-light conditions, a tripod would be a great investment. I lug one everywhere I go, as well as a monopod for those situations where using a tripod isn't possible. One of the problems with shooting with the lens wide open like that is that your depth of field is measured in fractions of an inch. So, unless you're shooting two-dimensional subjects, something will be out of focus. A tripod allows you to shoot at shutter speeds well below 1/30 with smaller diaphragm openings, and still achieve good exposure with low-ISO films. Yes, lugging a tripod around can be a royal PIA at times, but the payoff is worth it.</p>

<p>By the way, the 80mm lens on the Yashica MF camera is the "standard" lens for medium format, the same way the 50mm lens is the "standard" for 35mm (and full frame DSLR) cameras. All that means is that the same exposure rules apply to both. Of course, the MF camera is bigger, heavier, and less easy to use for handheld shooting. Did I mention using a tripod? ;-)</p>

[Alan Marcus]

<p>Setting the shutter speed to the reciprocal of the focal length is just a rule-of-thumb. This rule is not engraved in stone. Shooting at 1/30 sec. or 1/15 sec. is routine for many. This is just a matter of practice. Practice of breath control. Practice of proper camera holding and shutter release technique. Learn to use doorways and columns. Watch a pistol match, they practice the same techniques. With practice you can go to 1/8 second or maybe 1/4 second. Subject movement is another subject. Become an observer of sports subjects for moments when they pause for a moment. </p>

[john_stockdale2]

<p>Slow fine grained films can be very tempting, but, depending on the light level, what you gain in smooth grain you can easily lose in unsharpness due to camera movement and less depth of field if you have to go to full aperture.<br>

About underexposure: are you using a light meter?<br>

Professional photos are often good because of elaborate lighting setups. Your flash will certainly help in indoors shots, but your photos will tend to have a look about them because of the directional light for a simple flash setup. Read about "fill flash" which is just a bit of assistance from the flash to augment the ambient light. Some flash units are better than others (types of adjustments and control) so find out about what you think will work best for you and let Father Christmas know.<br>

The Yashica TLR will be a delightful camera, but for hand held use in indoor light it's not the easiest to use. 35mm cameras have an edge in that they generally have bigger apertures compared to the TLRs, such as f2 or f1.4 compared to f3.5 or f2.8. Also, the longer focal length of the TLR gives less depth of field. One advantage though is that because they don't vibrate, you can get away with hand holding slightly longer shutter speeds than SLRs. A speed of 1/30 is quite doable. Slower you might get away with. Some people are better at it than others.</p>

<p>For anyone doing their own black and white processing, the larger negatives are delightful.<br>

I haven't addressed all of your questions. Others with different perspectives and experience will chime in with further comments. Good luck.</p>

[starshooter]

<p>There are not any rules. There are suggested guidelines that work in many cases, that's all. I knew a professional photographer who could hold a camera with a long telephoto, a 500mm lens, still enough to shoot at 1/15 of a sec. Not every shot, but enough so he got what he wanted. Maybe he studied zen, who knows. There are many ways to brace yourself when shooting at a slow shutter speed including using the camera strap, putting your elbows on a ledge, plunking the camera down on a fence. Whatever works. It took me, personally, a long time to be able to shoot at slower speeds, handheld, because I have a tendency to "bang" the shutter. But I did learn how to stop doing that.</p>

[simon_hickie1]

<p>All good advice, especially using a tripod. I find a monopod gives about an extra stop to a stop and a half of handholdability (with good monopod technique). But at f2, not only are you going to have limited depth of field, but also the lens will not be giving its best - around f4 to f5.6 on a 50mm will be there or thereabouts.</p>

[kayla_kuris]

<p>Thanks for the responses and advice so far everybody.<br>

I live in a rather bland and boring area, and I don't travel that much anymore, so I get most of my pictures by bringing my camera to school. So, I wouldn't really be wanting to lug around a tripod in the school hallways. I'll work on tying to steady my hand a bit more.<br>

I'll see how this roll of Ektar comes out...<br>

I'm assuming it's very difficult to get an image out of slide film indoors. I'm interested in trying some slides, but I have limited outdoor subjects! Oh, well.</p>

[William Michael]

<p>It is most <a href="../photo/10738709">definitely possible for you to make images at very slow shutter speeds</a>: as already mentioned the techniques take practice.</p>

<p>There are a few other elements to your question:</p>

<p>Firstly - inside some typical lighting we’d expect during the day (sunny day – diffused window light) would allow ISO100 film to be used and you could be shooting around 1/15s~1/200s @ F/2 – depending on the orientation of the house and the time of day, etc. However at night-time the light level could reasonably drop by maybe 8 Stops (under the incandescent lights inside) – which really makes ISO100 Film not an option for hand held shooting.</p>

<p>Secondly – recognise that UNDERexposing any film, but ESPECIALLY high ISO film, will result in the appearance of MORE grain – so if you do use high ISO film, don’t crib on the Shutter Speed and as a result underexpose.</p>

<p>Thirdly – recognize that by buying a tripod (or not and just getting better skilled at Hand Holding) and shooting at slow shutter speeds – is possible to reduce the CAMERA SHAKE but you still might capture SUBJECT MOVEMENT. For example a small child sitting (about 2~3years old) shooting at 1/125s in available light - it is very likely one will capture SUBJECT MOVEMENT.</p>

<p>Fourthly – using a Flash will in many (most) shooting scenarios, ARREST the capture of both Subject Movement AND Camera Shake; and if ‘Dragging the Shutter’ technique is employed – one can still capture much of the AMBIENT room light to add ‘feel’ to the Photograph.</p>

<p>Fifthly – unless you use Correction Filters (which will rob you of more Shutter Speed) daylight balanced film shot under indoor artificial lights will render a colour cast</p>

<p>Sixthly – using a DSLR to practice all these techniques will render review of your practice very quickly and efficiently.</p>

<p><a href="../photodb/folder?folder_id=964622">As can be seen here - shooting inside under low light with a 50mm lens</a> - the Photographer chose to use an high ISO and NOT use very slow shutter speeds - mainly to avoid capturing SUBJECT MOVEMENT.<br />Also you might note: using the lens close to wide open, not only reduces the DoF but also results in not the umtimate Image Quality (as already mentioned by Simon).</p>

<p>WW</p>

[SCL]

<p>Most slide film is color balanced for sunlight, not fluorescent or tungsten light...although you can get filters to somewhat correct the colors. No, by the way, it is not difficult to get an image out of slide film indoors, I'm not sure where you got that misimpression. Generally, though, slide film shot indoors is done so with flash....otten bounced off the ceiling rather than shot directly at the subject. Since it appears you're new to medium format shooting, you may find your camera a bit of a challenge shooting handheld until you learn how to gently squeeze the shutter release and not move the camera. I much prefer using my mf gear indoors stabilized either on a steady surface or a table tripod or a full tripod. Many of my shots are in the 1/4-1/2 second range, and for me that is waaaaay to slow for me to handhold a mf camera. OTOH, I can usually do ok with a 35mm handheld t 1/15 sec., but I've built up my muscles and breathing over the years doing a lot of target shooting (gun not camera). The best advice is for you to practice, practice, practice...learn and modify your techniques until you are comfortable in almost any situation. BTW, you say you live in a bland and boring area....unless that is inside a cave which you never leave, you need to discipline yourself to find interesting things and perspectives to capture within your environment. For instance I went out yesterday in heavy fog to photograph trees in nearby fields and prkways and came back with some wonderful moody pictures. Last comment, from your original posting...learn how to meter or estimate proper exposure. There's no excuse for way underexposing a whole series of images.</p>

[kayla_kuris]

<p>Thanks again for the advice.</p>

<blockquote>

<p><em>No, by the way, it is not difficult to get an image out of slide film indoors, I'm not sure where you got that misimpression.</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>Oh. I just assumed that the very low speeds correlated to being difficult to use in indoor lighting.</p>

<blockquote>

<p><em>BTW, you say you live in a bland and boring area....unless that is inside a cave which you never leave, you need to discipline yourself to find interesting things and perspectives to capture within your environment.</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p><em><br /></em>Yeah, I definitely understand. I have very little creativity, and I don't go out at all, so I basically rely on other people or special events for taking pictures. I like using my camera, but only casually, as I don't really have the creative mind to do anything special with it.</p>

<blockquote>

<p><em>...learn how to meter or estimate proper exposure. There's no excuse for way underexposing a whole series of images.</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>My camera does have a built-in meter, but it's a little off. Surprisingly enough, the first time I ever shot film, the meter wasn't working so I just made educated guesses for aperture and shutter speed, and all the pictures came out with perfect exposure. Ever since I started using my meter I haven't gotten a perfect roll since.<br /> I'm not blaming it on the meter at all, I think most of the under-exposed pictures come from me unrealistically thinking I could <em>maybe possibly manage</em> to get a photo in low light, which obviously in some cases isn't possible. I keep on trying to tell myself not to take risks like that.<br /> Oh, well. I just don't think photography is the thing for me. I was getting rather excited about it because I thought it was a hobby I actually has potential in!<br /> Thanks for all the advice everyone!</p>

<p> </p>

[simon_hickie1]

<p>I learnt on a manual everything camera shooting slide film - no meter or focusing aids. It stood me in good stead for knowing when my meter on later cameras was lying. Try looking up Fred Parker's Ultimate Exposure Computer guide too.</p>

<p>On the creativity front, I fall into a similar mold, but I tend to compensate by trying to be technically correct and also concentrating on good composition. In the words of 'Galaxy Quest', never give up, never surrender. Don't worry about risk taking - no pain = no gain in this respect. I find just wandering round my home town photographing shop fronts can be quite interesting - it's amazing how business change over the years. I find black and white documentary photography fascinating too - try googling Walker Evans.</p>

<p>I note too that you are using film. This is good and bad. The bad side is that you can spend time and money in discovering what works and it can be hard to remember settings etc you used. When I got my first digital camera after 25 years of shooting slide film, it was a revelation. I could shoot anything and everything at all sorts of settings to find out what works for me and minimal cost per shot. Three months afterwards I got my first DSLR and never looked back. </p>

[simon_hickie1]

<p>I forgot, also look up John Gay (not the poet & dramatist), an Anglo-German photographer from the UK who photographed everyday things and scenes. </p>

[JDMvW]

<p>In the early days (and on the cameras Gene M. frequently shoots), many cameras had only two speed 'normal' and 'B'. On many of those the normal shooting speed was as low as 1/15 sec. and rarely faster than 1/50 sec. Of course the lens was a 75mm f/16 or such and the negative was the size of your hand. It's also true that close examination of old photographs will show many examples of camera movement blur. On the other hand, if you do look at Gene M's own pictures you can see how well someone can do at these speeds ( for a treat at http://www.westfordcomp.com/ )</p>

<p>However, it is possible to hand hold at 1/30 of a sec. IF you train yourself in how to hold steady (e.g., take a breath, exhale a little, hold, then shoot), brace yourself (aka "Swedish foreplay"*), and squeeze the shutter release smoothly, not jabbing.</p>

<p>_________<br>

* I AM Swedish, mostly, so am allowed to make ethnic comments on this. ;)</p>

[SCL]

<p>Kayla - DON'T GIVE UP SO EASILY! Lots of good advice from folks here, and we all want more young people to grow to love photography as much as we do. Here's a link to a free calculator you can carry with you for adverse lighting conditions (it uses Fred Parker's info), all you need is to print it out and use scissors to cut it out and fit it together (I laminated one years ago) <cite>www.stacken.kth.se/~maxz/files/<strong>jiffy</strong>.ps</cite> . Also, every photographer gets bored/burned out at some time. That's when you need to establish a discipline which forces you to shoot, even when you are having a hard time being creative. Here's how I do it. I tell myself..."you will go out today and shoot 1 roll of film (or its digital equivalent), and your only subject today will be: (fill in the blank from the below, as an example)". 1) Pictures of family and friends making duck faces, 2) Door knobs, 3) fence posts, 4) pictures in the fog or mist - any subject, 4) restaurant fronts, 5) signs......and so on and so on. You will be surprised by how these exercises will awaken the creative juices and provide inspiration to expand your horizons. Take things a step at a time, the world wasn't built in a day. Get friends and/or family to come up with ideas or help you out. Lastly, use PN to ask questions which occur to you...do a search first to see if they've already been covered. Good luck, and feel free to contact me directly if you would like additional specific pointers.</p>

[craig_shearman1]

<p>When shooting indoors under existing light, keep in mind that distance of subject from the light source has a huge impact on exposure. If, for example, there is a table lamp at one end of a sofa and your subject is at the far end of the sofa, you might pick up two or three stops just by repositioning the subject next to the light. If your light is a window, moving the person from the far side of the room to the window can make a huge difference. Even if they are close to the light source, moving them around so the light is hitting their face rather than their shoulder can make a difference.</p>

[simon_hickie1]

<p>Good advice from Stephen.<br>

I went for several months this year taking very few photos - I was more into playing music at the time. However, a trip out with my photography mates got things moving again. Right now, I'm stuck at home with a dodgy back, but I have a wedding reception to cover for my daughter's best friend. So I'm in my study playing with my kit, checking out flash settings, lenses etc. and hoping my chiropractor can start fixing things tomorrow.<br>

Here's a list of some things to focus on (pun intended)</p>

<ul>

<li>Textures (e.g. wood, water, fabric, metal etc.)</li>

<li>Patterns (man-made, by chance, deliberate, natural etc.)</li>

<li>Colours (complementary, harmonious, dominant, subdued)</li>

<li>Shape & Form (different shapes, shadows, direction of light, etc,)</li>

</ul>

<p>As Stephen says, set yourself a few challenges. <br>

On the kit front, the Minolta SRT101 was a fine camera in its time. If you know that the exposure meter is consistently a bit off, you can compensate for this in the film ISO (or ASA) setting. So, if your pictures are underexposed set the ISO setting a little lower - say 64 on an ISO 100 film or 260 on a 400 film.</p>

[William Michael]

<blockquote>

<p>I tell myself..."you will go out today and shoot 1 roll of film (or its digital equivalent), and your only subject today will be:"</p>

</blockquote>

<p>This is excellent advice. Do not underestimate the worth.<br />I believe one must WRITE down the challenge and also a time limit for completion.<br />Also I often write down a VERY limited number of shots allowed – I suggest you not do that, yet.<br />Start simple – just designating a subject only.<br /><a href="../photodb/folder?folder_id=912157"><strong>‘Make pictures of Fire Hydrants’</strong></a></p>

<p>Then add a twist:<br /><a href="../photodb/folder?folder_id=912127"><strong>‘Make a series of Self Portraits but with a unique twist’</strong> </a></p>

<p>Set a destination and provide scope to the exercise for creativity - I made this exercise more difficult byecifying a lens: this was at a stage when stipulated that I would only use a 50mm lens for three months - (for my personal work) - to re-hone my skills using a 'standard lens':<br /><a href="../photodb/folder?folder_id=933809"><strong>‘Use a 50mm lens before Sunrise – find a destination and not moving too far make a range of different images using different Techniques and different Subjects’</strong></a></p>

<p>Make the multifaceted challenges more difficult, technically:<br /><a href="../photodb/folder?folder_id=964622"><strong>‘Use only a 50mm Lens in Available Light, Indoors at a Party – the whole night’</strong> </a></p>

<p>And more difficult:<br /><a href="../photodb/folder?folder_id=972502"><strong>‘Make perfect exposures during the day of various Subjects without using a Light Meter’</strong></a> (these three extracts only):</p>

<p>WW</p>

[kayla_kuris]

<p>Thank you for the advice everyone. It's a lot of help. I shot the whole roll of Ektar and all of the pictures came out perfectly exposed and non-shaky, even when I had to go below 1/30. I'm impressed with the exposure latitude of Ektar, and how well it all came out.<br>

Here are a few of the pictures-<br>

http://s329.beta.photobucket.com/user/superdooperbrb/media/R1-04564-0018.jpg.html<br>

http://s329.beta.photobucket.com/user/superdooperbrb/media/R1-04564-0032.jpg.html<br>

http://s329.beta.photobucket.com/user/superdooperbrb/media/R1-04564-0003.jpg.html</p>

 

[William Michael]

<p>I particularly like the set shot of the record player in the field.<br>

Nice nuance to shoot vinyl, with film.</p>

<p>WW</p>

 

[simon_hickie1]

<p>Kayla, you have a good eye. Keep at it!</p>

[jcuknz]

<p> <em>Ever since I started using my meter I haven't gotten a perfect roll since</em><br>

The point here is that the meter is only guide and needs to be interpreted by the photographer. It wants to reduced the whole of the lighting range to an average grey and that is not what we want. The meter helps to overcome the wonderful ability of the eye to adjust quickly to the light level [ until one gets old like myself :-( ] and tells us what that average is and we should then take it from there and adjust setting to get the picture we want. A lot of the time there is no need to change but for those NBG shots it is likely you should have made an adjustment :-) </p>

[jcuknz]

<p><em>so I get most of my pictures by bringing my camera to school. So, I wouldn't really be wanting to lug around a tripod in the school hallways</em></p>

<p>In addition to learning to hold the camera steady there is also the option of looking and finding something steady to rest yourself and/or the camera to. a refinement of that is the mini-tripod ... I use a Slik 8555 which was in its day the cheapest and simplest of the Slik minis. These you can sit on something steady or else hold against a wall or post, whathaveyou.<br>

One problem I found that I couldn't get a horizontal shot while holding against the wall so I made myself an 'L' bracket ... this could have been bent from a photographers flash bar for holding the external flash to the tripod socket under the camera ... though I used a length of aluminium that I had.</p><div></div>

[jcuknz]

<p>I also frequently use the 10 second delay release and simply hold the tripod as firmly as possible to the wall during count down and exposure. If I had a film camera I would use a cable release.</p>

[bob_ogden]

<p>Or the self-timer...<br>

Even my old Nikon FTn has a self-timer.<br>

This is good advice and coupled with the advice to use a wall or post to steady the camera will help with slow shutter speeds. <br>

This was shot at 1/4 second. When a friend asked if I used a tripod, I replied, "no, I used a lamp post."<br>

<img id="yui_3_7_3_3_1355932052972_469" src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8205/8223896277_8fa3517ee9.jpg" alt="" /></p>

[User_6502147]

<p>You could use small beanbag, that's somewhat malleable to allow the camera to be supported in a vertical position (if needed). Yes, sometimes dealing with a tripod is a pain.<br>

Les</p>