Erratic behavior from a Nikon F5, F6, F4 - in particular

[jay_drew]

<p >Erratic behavior from a Nikon F5, F6, F4 - in particular</p>

<p >Hi all </p>

<p >Has anyone experienced erratic behavior w/ an F Nikon that was due to 'operator error'?</p>

<p >I just got a new (to me) F4. At 1st it seemed to work fine. Then it became unusable in "A" & "S" modes exposures (w/o film, ASA set to 400). Sometimes it would give an unending exposure until I would switch it off. Other times it would make a long exposure & close the shutter by it's self. Other times it would give a short exposure that seemed to be about right for settings <1/2 sec. It acted the same regardless of Matrix; Spot; or Center Weighted.</p>

<p >It also made no difference which film advance mode it was in. </p>

<p >I think it seemed OK w/ manual everything.</p>

<p >It totally refused to AF W/ 2 different AF-D lenses, & AF modes. </p>

<p >I haven't tried it in either "P" modes.</p>

<p >The 1st things I did was to test the 4 batteries w/ a ZTS MB-1, All 100%</p>

<p >The 2nd thing I did was clean all the contacts, including the lens contacts, the battery contacts</p>

<p >BTW all this odd behavior was w/ 3 different AF lenses. </p>

<p >I swapped out every part I could think of w/ my solid proven F4.</p>

<p >The only thing that occurs to me is that I may not have reseated a "B" or "E" screen properly, which I did swap. Could this be the cause? </p>

<p >I should clarify that it either seems to totally work or it totally doesn't work, as in nadda, zippo, zilch.</p>

<p >I went out for a few hours, & when I returned, I turned it on & it started AFing & AEing in "A & S" & seemed to be working fine.</p>

<p >Kinda reminds me of when Clic & Clack have a caller that their car won't act up when they get it to the mechanic.</p>

<p >I'm hoping that I’ve made an error, but if not then I want to return it. I'd like to know for sure.</p>

<p >Any help very much appreciated, Jay Drew</p>

[JDMvW]

<p>Well, I don't know the F4 et al. cameras (they haven't got cheap enough used for me yet), but I'm a novice to Nikon AF shooting and had problems with my N2020 and N8008s (=F801s) because<br>

you have to make sure that <em>all</em> the "knobs" and settings are set the proper way. I got "cross-controlled" (as they say in aviation spin training) with different knobs and such on different parts of the camera not agreeing, forgetting to change back the shutter mode, etc. Leaving the front lever on M, well you get the picture. </p>

 

[michaelchristensen]

<p>I don't have my F5 or F100 books handy, but assuming that the manual knobs and switches all work .. I would reset the camera to its' default settings in the menu. See if that causes the "erratic operation" to go away/correct the situation .. with the F5 you can remove the screen and check the electrical contacts .. the camera works with the screen removed .. then re-seat the screen .. and try again.</p>

<p>You could also take your camera to a camera retail store and plug on one of their new lenses and see if the camera recognizes the lens properly .. really, there are many things that can cause erratic behavior .. poor electrical contact, moisture/humidity where it should not be ..or an electrical short or defective capacitor ..</p>

<p>The exposure problem may be a response to changing light .. sometime making a long exposure .. you might want to look at the top screen or inside the viewfinder to see if the camera is changing ISO without you wanting it to do so .. that would account for exposure behavior and shutter timing .. if you have a light meter you could run some tests to see how your meter is reading the light vs. your camera .. for such a test I would set the camera to "center-weighted" mode .. point the camera and light meter to different areas and compare the reflective light readings on the light meter and that on the camera .. don't be too concerned if they don't show the exact same readings .. be concerned that they show that they show unequal variations in response to the same lighting condition .. ie do they change +/- 1 or 2 stops in agreement with each other... or does the camera want to expose wildly different that the hand held light meter .. just a thought to get you troubleshooting.<br>

If ambient light is constantly changing, you can use a regular light bulb .. center weighted meter for this exercise. Just trying eliminate some of the uncontrollable variables .. <br>

PS: are you sure you don't have the "self timer" set when the shutter is released? ISO/ASA setting constant .. and did you use an air blower around the switches to dislodge the dust bunnies, etc.</p>

[Michael R Freeman]

<blockquote>

<p><em>The only thing that occurs to me is that I may not have reseated a "B" or "E" screen properly, which I did swap. Could this be the cause?</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>No. The focusing screens in the F4 are "dumb" (no electronic contacts), the AF module is in the bottom of the mirror box and the screen is not in the beam-splitter light path, and a properly functioning F4 should autofocus with <strong>no</strong> focusing screen in place.</p>

<p>Sometimes a built-up static electricity charge can cause weird electronic malfunctions (page 110 in the user manual), and the cure is to remove the batteries and let the camera sit for a while to dissipate the charge. </p>

<p>I'm not sure why you mention the F5 and F6 in your thread title and first line of your post, as these are completely different beasts from the F4, and they have nothing to do with your problem (and it seems to have thoroughly confused Michael C.). :-)</p>

[Jerry_]

<p>What type of batteries are you using? NiMH cells? If so, the voltage is <strong>not = to 1.5v per cell</strong>. On some Nikon F5 and F100 camera bodies, not exactly the *right* amount of 1.5v cells made for poor camera operation after a couple of frames. It's been years since using a F4 body, but it sounds like a similar issue....</p>

<p> </p>

[Michael R Freeman]

<p>Jerry might be on to something as an additional factor potentially contributing to your problem, particularly since it sounds like you are using the 4-cell MB-20 battery pack (<em>"...1st things I did was to test the *<strong>4*</strong> batteries"</em>). That battery pack should only be used with alkaline or L91 Lithium batteries. Peak no-load voltage on fully charged NiMH AA cells is only 1.35~1.4V. Not a problem with the 6-cell MB-21, but they really shouldn't be used in the MB-20.</p>

[richard_meyers]

<p>For a 25 year old used camera, the most likely cause is failure of one of the electronic systems. Especially, if cleaning the contacts (did you use electronic contact cleaner?) and replacing the batteries doesn't help. Even though the F4s had the same knobs in the same places as the F/F2/F3, it was an electronically controlled camera.</p>

[david_carroll4]

My F4s (6x AA MB21 battery pack) has a switch which is

set according to the batteries used (switches between "KR-

AA" and "LR6"). I presume this switches in a resistor or

something to compensate for the different output voltages

of standard alkalines vs lithiums (mine uses alkalines and

set to "LR6"). I'm not sure how important this switch is, but

it might be worth checking.

[bebu_lamar]

<p>I need to ask the OP a couple of things. <br>

When set to S, where is the dial is set at and what is the shutter speed display in the viewfinder?<br>

When set to A, what is the shutter speed display in the viewfinder?</p>

[jay_drew]

<p>JDM von Weinberg wrote:<br>

<a href="../photodb/user?user_id=1841065">JDM von Weinberg</a> <a href="../member-status-icons"><img src="../v3graphics/member-status-icons/sub7.gif" alt="" name="graphics3" width="16" height="16" align="BOTTOM" border="1" hspace="2" vspace="1" /></a><a href="../member-status-icons"><img src="../v3graphics/member-status-icons/3rolls.gif" alt="" name="graphics4" width="16" height="16" align="BOTTOM" border="1" hspace="2" vspace="1" /></a>, Aug 21, 2012; 12:09 a.m.<br>

Well, I don't know the F4 et al. cameras (they haven't got cheap enough used for me yet), but I'm a novice to Nikon AF shooting and had problems with my N2020 and N8008s (=F801s) because<br />you have to make sure that <em>all</em> the "knobs" and settings are set the proper way. I got "cross-controlled" (as they say in aviation spin training) with different knobs and such on different parts of the camera not agreeing, forgetting to change back the shutter mode, etc. Leaving the front lever on M, well you get the picture.<br>

I really like the concept of "cross-controlled". Knowing that term will help me from now on. Honestly it will help me that such a condition can exist. I mean I guess I've know it @ some level but now it's much clearer. Thank you<br>

I would imagine that I'm probably not correct about this, but it seems to me that the only 2 ways get cross controlled conflict w/ a F4 is to not have the the f-stop @ the smallest (biggest #) when in "S" or "P" modes which I never use. The 2nd way is w/ the non AI button pushed w/ an AI or newer lens mounted. Than can also happen w/ a F3. (Please don't ask me how I know.)<br>

<br /><br /></p>

[JDMvW]

<p>Most people here have been around long enough not to ask "how do you know this?"</p>

<p> </p>

[jay_drew]

<p><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=5994753">BeBu Lamar</a> Wrote:<br>

<a href="../photodb/user?user_id=5994753">BeBu Lamar</a> <a href="../member-status-icons"><img src="../v3graphics/member-status-icons/1roll.gif" alt="" name="graphics5" width="16" height="16" align="BOTTOM" border="1" hspace="2" vspace="1" /></a>, Aug 21, 2012; 09:43 p.m.<br>

I need to ask the OP a couple of things. <br />When set to S, where is the dial is set at and what is the shutter speed display in the viewfinder?<br />When set to A, what is the shutter speed display in the viewfinder?</p>

<p>Lever is @ "S" The speed dial is set @1/15sec, ASA100<br>

At this very moment I'm aiming the F4 @ a diffused lamp shade. The display is not dancing around. The lever is set "S" The bottom LCD is showing the spot meter symbol, (It's set to spot, so good) it's reading 1/20 sec, to 1/125. Depending on the part of the lamp shade it is aimed The lens is set to the orange (smallest f stop, largest #) no f stop# is displayed, & the "A" is showing, ) but the lever is set to "S" (bad). (bottom LCD) I don't know what f-stop it thinks it should be. An accurate Pentax digital spot is reading between (from the darkest part of the lamb shade, EV 11 to EV 13, the lightest part) which is 1/15sec f11 to 1/15sec @ f22. Both are set to ASA 100. It is refusing to auto focus in either S or C. Oh well @ least it's not flickering various stuff.<br>

I switched the lever to "A" & set the f stop to f5.6. In the lower LCD, it indicated Spot, correct, shutter speeds 1/30 to 1/250sec & "A" In the upper f-stop window f5.6 shows. Of course Pentax still reads EV 11 to 13 which @ f5.6 come out to be 1/30 to 1/125 sec. The 1/125 to 1/250 difference is insignificant. Now if it were this stable & accurate all the time, I wouldn't be complaining. BTW there is zero correction set on the knob & in the viewfinder.<br>

Thank you, JD<br>

<br /><br /></p>

[jay_drew]

<p >Jerry & Michael wrote:</p>

<p ><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=96425">Jerry Litynski</a> <a href="../member-status-icons"><img src="../v3graphics/member-status-icons/sub10plus.gif" alt="" name="graphics6" width="16" height="16" align="BOTTOM" border="1" hspace="2" vspace="1" /></a><a href="../member-status-icons"><img src="../v3graphics/member-status-icons/1roll.gif" alt="" name="graphics7" width="16" height="16" align="BOTTOM" border="1" hspace="2" vspace="1" /></a>, Aug 21, 2012; 09:15 a.m.<br>

What type of batteries are you using? NiMH cells? If so, the voltage is <strong>not = to 1.5v per cell</strong>. On some Nikon F5 and F100 camera bodies, not exactly the *right* amount of 1.5v cells made for poor camera operation after a couple of frames. It's been years since using a F4 body, but it sounds like a similar issue....<br>

<a name="00ak8h"></a><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=533353">Michael R. Freeman</a> <a href="../member-status-icons"><img src="../v3graphics/member-status-icons/hero.gif" alt="" name="graphics8" width="19" height="16" align="BOTTOM" border="1" hspace="2" vspace="1" /></a><a href="../member-status-icons"><img src="../v3graphics/member-status-icons/1roll.gif" alt="" name="graphics9" width="16" height="16" align="BOTTOM" border="1" hspace="2" vspace="1" /></a>, Aug 21, 2012; 09:43 a.m.<br>

Jerry might be on to something as an additional factor potentially contributing to your problem, particularly since it sounds like you are using the 4-cell MB-20 battery pack (<em>"...1st things I did was to test the *</em><strong>4*</strong><em> batteries"</em>). That battery pack should only be used with alkaline or L91 Lithium batteries. Peak no-load voltage on fully charged NiMH AA cells is only 1.35~1.4V. Not a problem with the 6-cell MB-21, but they really shouldn't be used in the MB-20.<br>

<br /><br /><br>

Jerry & Michael<br>

I use Duracell Ultra AA, tested on what I believe to be a very reliable tester (The ZTS-MBT-1) per Ken Rockwell. I know that sometimes he's a bit full of it, but it this case I believe him.<br>

Thanks for the thought, JD</p>

[jay_drew]

<p >Richard Meyers wrote:</p>

<p ><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=473463">Richard Meyers</a> , Aug 21, 2012; 10:22 a.m.<br>

For a 25 year old used camera, the most likely cause is failure of one of the electronic systems. Especially, if cleaning the contacts (did you use electronic contact cleaner?) and replacing the batteries doesn't help. Even though the F4s had the same knobs in the same places as the F/F2/F3, it was an electronically controlled camera.<br>

<br /><br /><br>

I used fresh 99% Isopropyl on a clean rag following brushing w/ a fairly stiff nylon brush, always brushing away from the camera interior. I don't own a well working air puffer. I must remember to get a new one. The 2 I have do not work very well these days. I know that contact cleaner would be better, but I think new 99% Iso Alcohol should be good enough.<br>

I doubt it's 25 years old due to its high S/N. There were several mid-production improvements made over F4s long production run. S/N > 25XXXX had all the mid productions improvements, which was a large part of the reason I got this particular one. However it did come from Florida, & that is likely to be the reason for it's troubles.</p>

<p >Thanks for your comments, JD</p>

[jay_drew]

<p >david carrol wrote:</p>

<p ><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=5179791">david carroll</a> , Aug 21, 2012; 07:02 p.m.<br>

My F4s (6x AA MB21 battery pack) has a switch which is set according to the batteries used (switches between "KR- AA" and "LR6"). I presume this switches in a resistor or something to compensate for the different output voltages of standard alkalines vs lithiums (mine uses alkalines and set to "LR6"). I'm not sure how important this switch is, but it might be worth checking.</p>

<p ><br /><br /></p>

<p >I have a F4s & I know where the switch you refer to is. I don't think it exists on the F4 (plain no letter after the 4). If it is somewhere else on my F4, I would like to know where it is. I prefer the smallest F4 because of it's smaller size & lighter weight. And the hit in reduced frame capacity & speed isn't enough to justify using a bigger F4. The plain F4s are hard to find in the US. They mostly come from the Japan retail market..</p>

<p >Thank you, any info as to the existence / location of this switch much appreciated, JD</p>

[jay_drew]

<p>I forgot to mention that shortly after my 1 post, it started acting up again. Since then It has had periods of working or not as the Gods see fit.<br>

Jay Drew</p>

[Michael R Freeman]

<blockquote>

<p><em>I have a F4s & I know where the switch you refer to is. I don't think it exists on the F4 (plain no letter after the 4). If it is somewhere else on my F4...</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>There is no switch on the 4-cell MB-20 pack because AFAIK Nikon intended for it to only be used with 1.5v alkaline cells.</p>

[jay_drew]

<p>Michael<br>

I think you are correct, that makes sense.<br>

Thanks, JD</p>

[Michael R Freeman]

<p>Battery packs and other sundry aside, it sounds to me like your "new to me" F4 has some very flaky electronics and should be returned.</p>

[bebu_lamar]

<p>Now Jay, the display you have in A mode seems to be fine so when you push the shutter release does the shutter actual timing seems to agree with what's in the display?<br>

I don't think your camera ever switched to S mode even though you set the the mode dial to S. The F4 would automatically switch to A mode if the lens you use is not a CPU lens. I know you use AF lenses and all AF lenses are CPU lenses but may be the F4 lens to lens mount contacts are dirty.</p>

[jay_drew]

<p >Michael & BeBu<br>

I think you are correct, I've returned it.<br>

I've cleaned both sides of the lens contacts twice. I think it's a total goner. It hasn't auto focused for some time, although it did when I 1st got it.<br>

Also I made a post apologizing for the confusion of mentioning F4, F5, & F6 in the OP, but somehow it didn't make into the posts.<br>

Thanks so much to everyone for all the kind help, Jay Drew</p>