Thom Hogan Declares D800 "Not Recommended"

[jeremy_wakefield]

<p>Well I ordered the D800 about 3 weeks ago. It had the AF issue. I sent it back for a replacement and the second body had it too. In addition the second body had another AF issue which was worse. I don't know if my experience is common or not but this is the first camera I've had problems of this nature with.<br>

A number of highly respected people have noted the same issue so I know mine wasn't an isolated case. Nikon are claiming no knowledge and, as Thom rightly says, will pay the price.<br>

I'm waiting until Nikon sort it out before ordering again and I applaud Thom Hogan for his stance.<br>

William</p>

 

[james_symington1]

<blockquote>If you receive a camera that is not functioning properly, you can return it to the selling dealer for an exchange or refund or Nikon will correct it under the terms of their warranty. What more would you like them to do?</blockquote>

<p>That's the point though Elliot - I took my D800E back to Nikon <em><strong>3</strong> </em>times and each time they came back saying it's fine. It was only the retailer that managed to solve it by finding another D800E. If people are having this kind of pushback on the AF issue (which I haven't tested for - don't know what I would do if I found it) which does seem to be relatively common then Nikon need to realise that there is something amiss in their process.<br>

I am no engineer but if my original D800E was really within tolerance then I might venture to suggest that those tolerances are too wide for a camera like the D800E.</p>

[ant_nio_gomes]

<blockquote>

<p>I'm going to have to change my review to <strong>Not Recommended</strong>, <em>and it will stay that way <strong>until such time</strong> as it becomes clear to me that all new cameras coming into the US are free of the left AF sensor programming problem</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p><em><br /></em>It seems that Thom Hogan his changing his review solely due to the way Nikon is handling the situation and not because he considers the camera as a bad one. <br /> Being an event with a solution and considering the price of D800 he also considers that Nikon should pay for the consumer expenses, as well as showing some fear that this can affect the brand in the future.<br /> So Nikon can solve the situation and we should accept that as a writer of books for Nikon's cameras users Thom Hogan may wish to avoid people coming back to him saying they bought the camera based on his recommendation and now they're suffering the problem. But, on the other end, nothing prevents anyone from buying this camera, betting that they will not receive a copy with the problem or expecting Nikon to solve it if they are not lucky.</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<blockquote>as if it were Justin Bieber talking, and you say simply, this is a cretin and he knows nothing about photography</blockquote>

 

<p>Now, be fair, I have no idea whether Justin Bieber knows anything about photography - knowing nothing about <i>singing</i> on the other hand... But let's not pick on the poor girl.<br />

<br />

I think Thom's being quite clear: lovely camera, but there is a known issue affecting some subset of cameras (and Thom did ask his readers for feedback, it's not just his cameras) and Nikon's handling of this may not be satisfactory to potential purchasers. Perhaps "not recommended" is a bit harsh, but it's a public way to express the frustration of a number of Nikon customers, and it seems a pretty balanced way of trying to get the attention of someone who can change Nikon's attitude, to me.</p>

[ilkka_nissila]

<p>I think the problem is that online, even a small percentage of defective cameras gets a lot of attention on gear-oriented sites such as dpreview. On this forum, here on photo.net, most posts and discussion are between regular posters - it is a smaller community, and therefore the incidence of any particular manufacturing/calibration problem would likely to be small, if the problem's real world incidence is small. On the other hand I can imagine someone who has a problem might be tempted to vent over it to Thom or on dpreview forums rather than just dealing with it by having Nikon service it. However, the problem with having the quiet approach to fixing the problem is in this case that Nikon repair centres were initially unable to fix the problem, leading to a situation where there is a clear problem and Nikon is unable to solve it because of incorrect calibration procedure / data, after which the affected users were of course unhappy, as sometimes their cameras came out worse than when they were sent in (the nikongear forum has a discussion on this).</p>

<p>From Nikon's point of view the problem is that if the calibration problem affects 1% of the cameras sent in for AF issues, how can they make a statement "we have had a calibration problem with some D800 units, please send in your camera if you think it is affected by it" when it will only mean they will be flooded with cameras to "repair" when in fact only a small fraction of the cameras sent in have this particular problem for real, and most cameras sent in do not have it? Some of the procedures shown online for "checking" if a user has this problem are not correct, and will lead to people sending in cameras which are in fact working correctly (there is a widely spread video which basically leads to the users that follow its testing procedure to believe their camera has a problem whenever there is significant field curvature in the lens, which is a common thing and not a "problem" that can be fixed). I think Nikon simply cannot issue such a statement for practical reasons, nor should they.</p>

[paul_k1664875007]

<p>It seems to me TH is adopting slowly adopting the strategy of another 'well known' writer on the net, (and therefor automaticall an expert?) namely KR, who like TH is lately turning from an avid fan of Nikon to a grumpy critic of the brand (although I give TH more credit on his reviews, as KR admits he writes them without sometimes even having used the item concerned).</p>

<p>Having a firm base of dedicated readers, now becoming 'critical' produces additional extra traffic, and of course that's a main income source for these kind of sites of self declared experts.</p>

<p>I have been using a D800 for a couple of months now, and while the camera did have a backfocus problem when first used out of the box (which I probably could have fixed with the AF fine tuning, but was swiftly and without costs fixed by Nikon in the Netherlands), I have not encountered any problem with the AF as such with the individual AF (or leftside only) AF point(s).</p>

<p>As a major part of my photography is catwalk (long lenses, shallow DOF and fast moving subjects under not always perfect light) I have found out the hard way the D800 takes very critical and carefull shooting, and the slightest sloppyness with the AF while taking the picture is punished unforgivingly.</p>

<p>It focusses exactly where I put the AF point, and unlike the D3, does not allow any careless shooting or I simply don't get the picture in focus where I want it. And yes, it put's high demands on the glass used, which eg forced me to (after almost twenty years) say good bye to my trusty old 2.8/80-200mm AFD (second generation push pull) zoom, as the softness when shooting wide open could no longer be masked or compensated in any way.</p>

<p>But when the AF is right (which fortunately is steadily improving significantly as I, even after over 30 years of using Nikon, AF for close to twenty years and digital for almost ten years, get learn to handle the camera better) the extra pixels do pay off and translate in incredibly detailed pictures, for me never experienced before in my years of shooting castwalk (where the high ISO used to translate in not always the best detail and image quality)</p>

 

<p>So in my experience while it's quite possible there are some QC problems with some of the (judging by the many reports on 'faulty' samples) widely sold and used D800 (which BTW surprises me a bit based on the many reports of people who have not been able to get one, but that's a different story). for me the D800 is he best Nikon I'm using at the moment.</p>

<p>Sure, there are some (hopefully initial) problems, but that also happened with the D1, D2H, D3, but eg also D70 and D200, and going back futher in time also with nowadays 'classic' camera's like the F100, and which I trust will be solved by Nikon in time as has also been the case with the other cameras (don't forget the D800 has only been on the market for a couple of months).</p>

<p>And otherwise vote with your feet. I get the impression many new users don't have a big collection of Nikon glass etc. so swithing (back?) to another brand should be easy and not as traumatic as for long time Nikon users (who don't seem to complain that much about the latest gear anyway)</p>

 

 

[ShunCheung]

<blockquote>

<p>Well I ordered the D800 about 3 weeks ago. It had the AF issue. I sent it back for a replacement and the second body had it too. In addition the second body had another AF issue which was worse.</p>

</blockquote>

<p><a name="00ae8C"></a><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=2292967">William Scott</a>, I am glad finally someone provides first-hand experience here.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>although, Shun, dude, did it ever occur to you Nikon's making sure you get the good stuff?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Obviously all test samples photo.net/me receive come from Nikon USA. Whether they have checked them before sending them out I don't know, but the D800 test sample I got started with shutter actuation #1. Therefore, I know that it was not used after leaving the factory.</p>

<p>My D800E is the 7th Nikon DSLR I bought. All 7 are random samples from stores. Since I am not an NPS member, I orderd my D800E from my local store just like anybody else would have done, and it took them almost two months to get it. Nikon USA would have no idea that particular camera would come to me.</p>

[Peter_in_PA]

<p>If you are a respected internet reviewer who encounters a good deal of anecdotal evidence that there is a problem with a product and you say that you don't recommend it based on that, that seems like a sound practice to me. A LOT of people read Thom, evidently, so maybe this will get Nikon's attention if this is, indeed, the problem it seems to be.</p>

<p>At the very least they will need to address it better than they have done so far.</p>

[anuragagnihotri]

<p>I don't know if there's a problem with D800 focussing. Looks like there is, in all probability. <br>

But hat's off to TH for downgrading the D800 to 'not recommended'. In the end, it will be good for consumers. <br>

On KR: Ha ha....forget KR, SH is the new KR :) :)</p>

[robert_k1]

<blockquote>

<p>I am well aware that over on DPReview's Nikon Fourms, the D800 AF issue, especially concerning the left AF points, have been discussed to no end since April. However, here on this very Nikon Forum, I don't recall reading all that many complaints about it.<br>

[snip]<br>

In comparison, there are a lot of complaints about D7000 AF errors and D300 problems.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I'm a long time Nikon customer, and only pay attention to reviews of gears I use or intend to purchase. Questions:</p>

<p>- What other Nikon bodies other than these had as many AF issues reported? IOW, did the reports started with these bodies? When a machine becomes exceedingly sophisticated and complex, flawless design, manufacturing and testing can be challenging. Intel paid half a billion dollars for their floating point fiasco.</p>

<p>- By comparison, are there as many AF issues reported on Canon bodies?</p>

[anuragagnihotri]

<p>There's a follow up post on Thom's site, very relevant. Incase you want to read it. <br>

Basically he says, no one will buy a used D800 because they will doubt it to be defective. And it will be hard to sell it because people will think its defective. <br>

And all this because Nikon has not said anything...it they have a stand on it, there will be lot of clarity. </p>

[richard__]

<p>Michael, one only needs to be following their current, ongoing problem to get a feel for Howard's statement:<br>

<br />Government panel blasts lack of 'safety culture' in nuclear accident<br /><a href="http://ajw.asahi.com/article/0311disaster/fukushima/AJ201207230081">http://ajw.asahi.com/article/0311disaster/fukushima/AJ201207230081</a><br /><br /></p>

<blockquote>

<p> "Japanese cultural phenomenon of denying mistakes (or manufacturing defects)"<br /><br />Howard, painting broad strokes without factual support in this specific instance isn't very helpful. <br /><br /></p>

</blockquote>

<p>What this means for the ongoing reports of the D800 Autofocus problem, and a solution to those remains to be seen.</p>

[ariel_s1]

<p>Of course Nikon will take care of the issue, if there is one with your camera. Whenever there have been issues with previous cameras, Nikon has been willing to fix the issue without complaint; that's what a warranty is for. Look at Thom's review of the D200 for example. Back when the camera was released, I'm sure that banding and encrypted white balance were a very real issue, just like how in the 1950's, nuclear attack from Russia was a very real fear. However, looking back on it with the gift of hindsight, we see that while there were some issues with the D200, not everyone had them, and those that did got their camera repaired. Overall, it was not worth getting worried over. Either take the chance by buying one of the initial batches, or go enjoy yourself for a few more months until all of the vigilante testwork has been done. Heck, Nikon has already officially released a fix for this D800 issue, and it doesn't even involve changing any physical components!<br>

http://mansurovs.com/nikon-d800-asymmetric-focus-issue<br>

If you took your camera back before, as mentioned, it was likely before Nikon was able to form a cohesive strategy on what exactly was wrong with their cameras. It seems to me that Thom is just doing this so that when the problem is fixed, he can parade around this older post and claim that he was able to bully Nikon "into their proper place." Too bad they've already moved past this.</p>

[orcama60]

<p>Thom never said the D800 is a bad camera. I do believe it is a great camera BUT we are not discussing here if it is bad or a great camera but the way Nikon is handling the issue that has been already posted in this thread. We buy cameras and lenses based on other photographer's experience on the field and testing. For example, everybody knows the 70-200 f/2.8 VR II is an excellent lens; it has been "marked" by all the owners as an excellent lens. You buy that lens base on those reviews or usage that others do on the field ... not just because Nikon is saying : "this is the best lens ever .. lalalala "<br>

Same thing with cameras. On theory, the D800 is a great camera,( if the camera is working properly, it is the best ever and I do not have any doubt about it ) but some of them and we don't know how many, came faulty. Now, that is not really the problem because we know that some equipment may be faulty out of the box. The problem start to arise when you send the camera back, you pay ( when you should not ) for shipping and handling, wait about 2 other months to receive it back from Nikon and then, still the camera is not working properly. So how do you think that you should feel if you were the one on that situation ?<br>

I am a Nikon customer since 1988 when I bought my first camera, the great N8008. I would not like to receive a faulty camera in the first place, second, I would not like to pay for shipping and handling ( where is the great customer service that in this country US, we are used to ? ), third, I would not like to wait 2 months for my camera back and fourth, I would not like to receive the camera back in the same condition. Do you call that a great experience as a customer ? No. Because of this, the D800 is not the best equipment to buy ... UNLESS you test it before you buy it. You don't know if the camera you are buying is either working or not as expected. There is a deep doubt !!<br>

I do believe that Thom is making us a great favor here. He is not saying don't buy it, he is giving us some information about this camera that should make us more cautious when going to the store to buy the camera. Finally, it is up to you or us if after too many testing that he and others made already, you decide to ignore other's experience and buy the equipment. <br>

Nikon is not giving us trust on this particular equipment. Question is, would we face the same issue with the upcoming D600 or D400 ? We don't know because we have a doubt already and from customer service standpoint it is not a great idea that a customer feels like that. Nikon is loosing some kind of credibility here. Obviously, Thom is saying "not recommended" cause you may or you may not be a winner when you buy this camera. Now, again, it is up to you if you want to go for and ignore what he said. Personally, before I buy any photography equipment, I do review, I do ask ( I have used this forum to ask questions before ), I test and I wait some time waiting on other's experience and finally I decide to buy or not. <br>

Thanks God that we have professionals like Thom helping us to make a right decision. I wonder how many of you have bought stuff based on his opinion, cameras, lenses or his books ? But now that he is saying something "bad" about the D800, we do not like it.</p>

<p> </p>

[Rene11664880918]

<p>"Japanese cultural phenomenon of denying mistakes (or manufacturing defects)"<br>

What does that mean?? When Japanese people have a problem with whatever product they choose, they go back to the store and get it replace or fix. While the product is being fixed they relax and have a beer..... That is a big difference with the US.... In the US everyone is so spoiled and people like to complaint, get upset about very simple things and end up having a heart attack.....<br>

So you guys just relax.... enjoy life.... TAKE PICTURES and be happy....... I recommend you guys come to live in Japan for 2 or 3 years, maybe you would learn something.</p>

[stevenseelig]

Couple of things:

 

Can some describe a poor mans test to demonstrate the left autofocus issue?

 

I did my first dark church shoot this past week with my D800. The images are fantastic (I have been, shooting D700 for the past several

years to add some perspective to my impression of fantastic). I would sure hate to send the D800 back!!

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>Rene' - I can't vouch for a Japanese company. I've worked for other companies with parents in Asia, and I've been warned (and seen) that there is a culture of not reporting bad news to management (or to anyone outside an immediate group). Once a problem does reach management, the fix tends to get implemented extremely quickly (compared with the possibly endless meetings and blame assignations that might happen in some Western companies), but I can take time for an issue to pass the threshold for it to be acted on. That doesn't make things better or worse than other cultures (and may not apply to consumers), but there <i>is</i> a tendency to behave slightly differently.<br />

<br />

I've no evidence of whether this culture may apply to Nikon or car manufacturers, or in fact to any Japanese company (and I bear in mind that Japan is more "Westernised" than some countries in its geographical proximity), but if it <i>is</i> an issue, I suspect Thom's stunt (I use the term without prejudice) might be beneficial. Especially since he actually held a poll and found out how many of his readers were having problems, rather than relying on rumour.<br />

<br />

On the other hand, I'm quite sympathetic to Nikon that they don't want an influx of fully-functioning D800s. That probably doesn't mean that it would hurt them to make public an accurate test procedure and admit that a small number of products have a problem.</p>

[Rene11664880918]

<p>Andrew.... I think any company in any part of the World act the same way. A new product comes out and for sure there are always some bad units. Usually they will fix it but they won't go around accepting there is something wrong with their line up.....<br>

After I bought my first DSLR (D80) my super Windows computer couldn't handle the files... kept freezing and I decided to give Apple a try.... Well, I bought a 15" MacBook Pro.... problem fixed. 2 weeks later I put a DVD on it and guess what? The MBP wouldn't read the DVD. I got in my car, expended 3 hours of my time, gasoline and around 40 USD on freeway toll. I showed them what was going and they just gave me a brand new MBP. Instead of complaining about it, I drove back home and I was really happy that they were so nice and gave me a new lap top. In 2010 I bought another 17" MBP but this time I customized it. So it took around 3 weeks to arrive from China. Finally it came, I turned it on and discover a brown spot the size of a quarter in the middle of the screen. Called Apple and they told me that if I wanted a new one I had to wait 3 weeks again.... that wasn't nice coz I was leaving to the UK within a week. Also they told me they could fix it and check it and I could be sure I wouldn't have a problem with it. They picked it up Thursday and I got it back on Saturday. Again, I was so happy about it..... I didn't run to the net to find other people complaining about this problem. I also didn't think anything bad about Apple. It was just a coincidence that I had a problem each time I bought a lap top from them. After that I bought 2 more lap tops and I had no more problems.</p>

<p>But I notice that Nikon users are different.... to me it seems that even if they don't have a problem with their cameras, THEY WANT TO FIND ONE..... and they keep checking and listening other people with problems.... I find it funny....</p>

[Barry Clemmons Photography]

<p>I have both bodies and have had no focus issues at all. Since getting them I have shot a wedding and several portrait sessions. I also have several large prints on my walls from a recent trip to Yosemite where I used the D800E and probably every focus point in the viewfinder. Those prints stand out from all of my others. I know for sure that the left focus points were used several times. As others are pointing out, Thom Hogan is not criticizing the D800 as much as he is criticizing Nikon for how they are handling the issue. Apparently I am very fortunate to have received two good bodies. The problem for Nikon as I see it is that every shot made with a D800/D800E (and other future bodies) that is not blindingly sharp will be blamed on the camera, when in fact in a lot of cases other issues will be to blame.</p>

[lex_jenkins]

<blockquote>

<p>"It seems to me TH is adopting slowly adopting the strategy of another 'well known' writer on the net, (and therefor automaticall an expert?) namely KR, who like TH is lately turning from an avid fan of Nikon to a grumpy critic of the brand (although I give TH more credit on his reviews, as KR admits he writes them without sometimes even having used the item concerned).<br>

"Having a firm base of dedicated readers, now becoming 'critical' produces additional extra traffic, and of course that's a main income source for these kind of sites of self declared experts."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>This pretty much says it all.</p>

<p>Given the context of the entire review, Hogan's article and caveats are valid. But he's also engaging in more hyperbole for the sake of generating buzz and traffic.</p>

<p>Seems to be working.</p>

[Mike D]

<p>I use a D800 with 200-400 and don't know if I have this problem because the AF (single point) seems to work great. However, I do like Thom's articles because he includes the business side of the issue. I was at a Nikon seminar a couple months ago and 2 Nikon representatives were laughing about how often Thom is wrong about Nikon equipment. I kept my mouth shut because Nikon gives me no pathway to future product introductions and I learn more from Thom about Nikon than I will ever learn from Nikon. Even automobile manufacturers provide hints to the public on upcoming models. </p>

[jeremy_wakefield]

<p>While I personally congratulate Thom on his stance and believe it is probably quite a powerful step in concentrating Nikon to give a bit of clarity to the situation, I am really saddened by the whole situation. When I used the centre AF point, those to the right of it, or Live View to focus the D800 it was absolutely superb.<br>

While I was extremely tempted to ignore the issue and hope Nikon would sort it if I sent it back. I wasn't really made to feel confident when I spoke to them though. They just said they'd never heard of this issue and when I pointed out it was splattered all over the internet their reply was that they didn't read reports online. This seemed to confirm a number of reports that Nikon weren't really throwing their full weight behind sorting this out for customers.<br>

TBH if they'd said " Sorry you've had this problem. A small number of units are affected but we understand the cause and are able to fix it" I'd have happily sent it in. But they didn't and the number of people saying their fixes weren't fixes at all is disappointing. So I played safe and sent it back. £2,600 is a lot of cash to take a punt with!<br>

In the end I've decided to hold fire until there seems to be a solution. There is not the slightest doubt in my mind that once Nikon sort it ( as I'm sure they will ) I will bite their hand off for this camera.</p>

<p>William</p>

[peter_petrov1]

It would be probably easier if we accept what Thom is: Internet troll

<p>This is the case at least 50% of the time when he writes something on his site. Same as Ken Rockwell, only Ken is much more funny to read because - unlike Tom - he clearly says "I am doing this for fun, don't take me serious".

 

<p>So let's just ignore ignore trolls, not feeding them is the best approach.

[Peter_in_PA]

<p>Boy, no offense to some of you, but calling Thom an internet troll is frankly ridiculous. He brings a LOT of balance to even his positive reviews, and his information is very useful, whether you agree with it or not. He has never steered me wrong.</p>

<p>KR, on the other hand, is pure entertainment that occasionally gets it right.</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>Peter: I think that's harsh. There's quite a lot of useful information on Mr Rockwell's site, but it's clearly buried under the proviso "if you have the exact same requirements that I do (this week)", which makes it difficult to recommend to novices. Thom seems somewhat more balanced, or at least internally consistent. I'm much happier to read "I've seen some problems, do with that information what you will, I feel obliged to warn my readers" than "this piece of camera kit is absolutely perfect". It's not like he's hiding his reasoning. Sure, I'm happy to believe that Thom will gain from the publicity, but if that gets the problem fixed, I won't begrudge him. I'm off home from work to find out whether my camera is one of the happy few.</p>