Thom Hogan Declares D800 "Not Recommended"

[ariel_s1]

<p>William, you can't fault Nikon for not listening to the internet noise. As often as not, the noise is about something pointless that doesn't affect anything, such as the 70-200mm "flakes." They have identified the issues with the D800, as I posted in the link above, and are fixing the D800's now. Surprise surprise, the fixes took some time to identify and implement; they don't have the luxury of nameless people hiding behind keyboards to make claims at will.</p>

<p>Every new product goes through its teething issues, and by now Nikon has a fix for it. You wanted to be on the cutting edge; whether it's computers, cars, cameras, firearms, or any other product you are taking a risk by stepping up to a brand new product.</p>

[lisa_b4]

<p>More detailed info from Thom's blog:</p>

 

<P>

<I>

Sorry Lisa, you have copied a very large section from Thom Hogan's web site. That is in violation of Thom's copyright. Those who would like to read Thom's test procedure please visit his web site: http://bythom.com and read his comment from July 16. -- Shun

</I>

</P>

 

 

 

<!--

 

<p ><strong>1.</strong> <strong>The nature of the problem is simple</strong>: some AF sensors are providing improper focus information. This appears to be almost always the left side line sensors in the CAM3500 (the three center columns are cross sensors). In the two cameras I inspected, there was clearly something different in the left line sensors than I saw in the center cross or right line sensors. Depending upon how you test (see below), you can sometimes see <em>slight</em> differences between the right line sensors and center, but that's not the same thing as I saw on the two bodies in question: clear out of tolerance results on the left, while the center and right were basically as I'd expect them.</p>

<p >So what's the problem, really? The camera has internal tables that help it understand the actual position of each of the focus sensing modules. It uses that position data in the math that the camera performs to determine focus. It appears that in some cameras, this data needs to be redone. How the information got to be wrong in the first place, we don't know. I'd have to speculate that Nikon has at least one camera calibration station in the manufacturing facility that's putting incorrect information into the cameras going out. But that's pure speculation on my part. I can't think of another likely reason, though. Perhaps my imagination is off this morning and there's a different reason I'm just not seeing. But whatever the cause, Nikon isn't sharing that information.</p>

<p ><strong>2. So how do you test?</strong> You need a fairly large flat surface like a large wall. On that wall you need to put test targets. Star targets are <em>not </em>preferred. The left autofocus sensor that you really want to test is oriented to detect information vertically, and most star targets don't give you much of that. You want targets something like this (non-uniform bars with non-uniform spacing):</p>

<p ><img src="http://bythom.com/Images/aftest.jpg" alt="" width="200" height="127" /></p>

<p >The problem is more easily noticed in fast wide to normal lenses, so use a 28mm, 35mm, or 50mm prime. Which you use will dictate how big that flat surface should be and the size of your test targets (no, I'm not going to detail every last little bit, as there are too many combinations and permutations here). I'd argue that you should be placing your camera at a "normal" shooting distance. Some people are testing far too close. 6-10 feet (2-3m) sounds about right to me. Your camera needs to be level and parallel to the wall. That step alone can trip a lot of people up.</p>

<p >Assuming your setup and test charts are appropriate, the testing itself is simple enough. Shoot at base ISO and maximum aperture (preferably with a fast lens; slow lenses will mask the problem with depth of field). Turn off lens corrections if your camera has them (the D800 has Auto Distortion Control, for example). I prefer to shoot and evaluate raw files, but I don't see any real harm in using JPEG as long as you don't crank up sharpening, contrast, or other controls that may hurt your ability to evaluate the results.</p>

<p >Set the camera to Live View. Rack the focus to infinity manually, then use Live View autofocus to focus at the leftmost sensor position and take a picture, rack the focus to infinity and autofocus on the center sensor area and take a picture, and then rack infinity again and use the rightmost sensor area for the last picture (you're going to have to do some judging there, as Live View AF doesn't give you the 51 normal positions and is slightly different in size for focus). At the end of this step, you should have three reference shots (left, center, right). They should all seem to be in relatively good focus. If they're not, do not pass go, do not collect your $200.</p>

<p >Indeed, I should point out that in talking to a number of people about their "D800 focus problems" and their testing of it, many of those conversations never get this far in the testing sequence. They've done something wrong prior to this point, so we can't actually believe their results until we correct that. In this respect, Nikon's "contact us...so we can troubleshoot and advise on a resolution" comment is dead on. Assuming, of course, that Nikon gives the right troubleshooting information and advice, of course ;~).</p>

<p >Now do the same left, center, right test using regular shooting with the main phase detect autofocus system. Remember to rack the lens to infinity between each test. Compare these images against your Live View images. In the case of the two problem cameras I saw, center and right were close enough to the same between Live View and phase detect autofocus that I wouldn't quibble. But the left sensor had a very visible, large, and obvious difference. If you see that in testing your camera, contact Nikon and tell them what you found and wait for their response.</p>

<p ><strong>2.5. Should you Test? </strong>Yes. One thing that you don't generally see in other discussions of the problem is that you can't really ignore this problem if your camera has it. Why? Because the only safe way to use a camera that has the problem is Single Point autofocus using a known good sensor (e.g. center). Auto Area and 3D Tracking use <em>all</em> the focus points, so if one or more of them are out, you're going to get less than reliable focus results. Likewise, Dynamic Area is risky, too, because if the camera starts moving the sensor left to follow a subject, well, we all know what's out there.</p>

<p ><strong>3. What's Nikon's procedure?</strong> It appears that Nikon's response is this: they'll ask you to send in your camera if they're convinced that you may have a real issue. They'll put it through the new calibration test that's just been deployed to the subsidiaries and this will update the internal camera tables for the focus sensors. If that makes everything look good, they'll send it back to you and your camera should be fine. If there are still problems, they then have to examine a lot of other potential alignment issues (mount, mirror, sub-mirror, focus sensor module, etc.).<br>

<strong>4. Are new cameras okay?</strong> This new test appears to have been deployed in the last 14 days. One would hope that this also means that no new D800's coming out of the factory would need this procedure done, but there's no way to tell when your camera was made, so that information isn't overly helpful. I would basically say our recent holiday (July 4th) is a good point to orient from. If you bought your camera before that, I'm betting that some percentage of D800's will have the problem.</p>

 

-->

[stevenseelig]

<p>Well, I don't usually use my camera standing on my head, looking backwards, with my right thumb in my left ear and my left thumb in my left eye and grunting in a very loud voice on the 45 day of the month.<br>

And only if I put 1000 Thom's on the point of a pin....<br>

Oh.. and I almost 100% of the time use spot focus....<br>

Why is this discussion relevant, but more importantly why the global comment about 'Not recommended'? <br>

I am commenting in relation to Lisa's effort to actually post Thom's blog.</p>

[rossb]

<p> I will just go with Thom Hogan until I hear what Nikon has to say about it. Not important to me as I am not going to buy a new Nikon camera until they start selling parts to the small repair shops again. </p>

[gregory_fischer]

<p>Thom Hogan is not the only expert Nikon advocate to discuss the left sensor problem. In his subscription blog, <em>digLloyd Advanced Photography</em>, Lloyd Chambers provides very detailed examples of the left sensor problem in both AFS and AFC modes, shooting both natural planar targets (a detailed mural wall at Stanford) and Lens Align. Chambers is a very strong proponent of the D800/D800E, but his examples of a careful test show that the left sensors problem is not subtle when it occurs. On the real world murals, the center AF sensor is very accurate (in AFS mode), but the right side sensors are slightly smeared and the left side sensors are totally smeared. His results using AFC with stationary targets shows consistently worse focus accuracy, but again the problems are much worse on the left than the right. Chambers documents these focus problems with two of Nikon's better lenses - the 85/1.4G and 85/1.8G - tripod mounted, with several (refocused) exposures at each sensor position. In his examples, the problem is not subtle. Many of the left sensor-focused images would be unusable. </p>

<p>You can read some of Chambers' analysis in his public blog, using the link <em><a href="http://diglloyd.com/">diglloyd</a>, </em>but to get the complete analysis you have to be a subscriber to his subscription blog <em>digLloyd Advanced Photography. </em></p>

 

[alex_zepeda]

<p>Wow. Some of the responses make it seem like Thom's eaten your first born child or somesuch. To me, if all you're going to do is spew (or demand) praise for your brand of choice, you're just as irrelevant as someone who's only going to spew criticism. Just because you do not agree with his opinion or do not find it relevant to your use cases does not make the man a troll. FFS.</p>

<p>This is all the more interesting to watch as I've no skin in the game. Based on specifications alone, the D800 is not a camera I'm interested in buying. IMO it is priced very reasonably for its capabilities, but given that Nikon's traditionally anti-consumer stance (with its repair policies - both in terms of grey market repairs and in terms of not allowing independent shops access to repair parts, encrypting its white balance information, etc) I would fully expect perfection of the D800/E. That said, I wonder how many of you even read Thom's original review? It was, as far as I could tell, quite slanted in a pro-Nikon direction. Despite his note of abysmal quality control (most number of firmware bugs he's encountered, problems with AI lenses, etc) he still recommended the damn thing.</p>

[ariel_s1]

<p>Wow, am I invisible here? Ross, again, I posted a link detailing Nikon's response. How is that not clear yet? <strong>Nikon has responded</strong>. There is a response. Ming Thien reported this back in June, and Mansurovs reported it well over a week ago. You can verify it yourself by typing in "Nikon response D800 focus" or any other creative string of terms. Or, feel free to call NPS yourself and verify this. There <strong>was</strong> an issue, but it was fixed. Once they learned about the problem, they instated a repair protocol. This isn't the first time that a manufacturing defect happened with Nikon, and it's not like they are the only ones dealing with issues like this. They are fully fixing all DSLRs under warranty, as they always have when issues have popped up, so I really don't understand all this complaining. Can we PLEASE not have any more comments like "Well let's see what Nikon says" or "I wonder if Nikon will actually do something about this," because Nikon HAS said something about it, and they ARE doing something about this. Again, because it doesn't seem to be sinking in, Nikon is aware of the issue, and they are repairing the D800's asymmetric focusing issue with the left-hand focus points.</p>

<p>Alex, the issue with Thom is that he is sensationally overresponding to an issue with his camera. It's not about fanboyism; it's about Thom's pouty behavior. Read his D7000 review, for example, and he brushes off others' incidence of manufacturing defects with an "Hey, it has to happen to some, so tough, and most people complaining are probably misusing their camera anyway." Read the section in this review titled "A note on quality control:"<br>

http://bythom.com/nikond7000review.htm<br>

Yet, when his precious D800 has an issue (that again, Nikon has ALREADY responded to with a fix a relatively long time ago), he actually changes his official statement to "Not recommended!" Well, maybe Thom should practice what he preaches, because I think if he read his own D7000 review again, he might look at the D800 a bit differently. According to Ming Thien's blog, they have had a solution in place for over a month now, and Mansurovs picked it up a while ago as well. So, that begs the question, why does Thom think that Nikon is not dealing with the issue, when they clearly are? Does he believe that Nikon will continue to sell faulty D800's, with the executives sitting behind their desks and cackling at the grief that they will be causing their customers? I doubt he thinks that. Either, he is making his recommended/not recommended judgement based on faulty outdated information, not having talked to his NPS rep in the last month, or he just wants to make some noise and drive people to his site. Heck, as people said, it works for KR. That guy posts up whatever nonsense he's feeling that day, and the forums go crazy over it, sending more people to click to his website while he laughs all the way to the bank. Thom is overall a fairly reliable source of information about what's good or bad about a product, but he's really dropped the ball with this latest tantrum.</p>

[rossb]

<blockquote>

<p>Wow, am I invisible here? Ross, again, I posted a link detailing Nikon's response. How is that not clear yet? <strong>Nikon has responded</strong>. There is a response. Ming Thien reported this back in June, and Mansurovs reported it well over a week ago. You can verify it yourself by typing in "Nikon response D800 focus" or any other creative string of terms. Or, feel free to call NPS yourself and verify this. There <strong>was</strong> an issue, but it was fixed</p>

</blockquote>

<p> Sorry but I did not see your post. Sounds like Nikon is getting things in order. Since I do not want one I think I will skip calling NPS. </p>

[mike_vine]

It seems to me that Thomas Hogan should be taken seriously as a commentator of the Nikon product line - just look at

the breadth of material and the number of years he has worked at this. He is merely voicing his opinion that for the

present he cannot recommend this camera because of his understanding of the prevalence of the issue and more

importantly his perception of Nikon's response to the problem. For those of you who wish to ignore that opinion then of

course that is your choice but to disparage a commentator with Thom's track record as a serious and balanced

commentator just because you don't agree with his opinion rather demeans this forum. For me he has paid his dues to be

taken seriously.

[dan_south]

<blockquote>

<p>Dan -- the problem with dismissing the idea that we should be affected by our research you're fundamentally making an impossible argument. Think of the books you've read, the films you've seen, because of someone else's recommendation. It's the critic's job to be<em>convincing</em>. So either you can say the critic has no standing -- as if it were Justin Bieber talking, and you say simply, this is a cretin and he knows nothing about photography -- or, if you wish to dismiss the argument publicly, you have to make a convincing, informed argument against it.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I didn't say any of those things. I didn't dismiss Thom Hogan as a 'critic'. I don't go to movies or read books based on other peoples' recommendations. (I make my own decisions and selections.) And I don't have a whole lot of use for 'critics' one way or another.</p>

<p>When planning a purchase of photo gear I gather info from people like Thom (who gain early access to the gear), but their comments play a big role in my final purchasing decision. Reading firsthand accounts and looking at sample images is simply a way of gaining familiarity with a product before I have a chance to check it out in person.</p>

<p>I decided to buy <em>one</em> of the D800 models on the day that they were announced (I like high resolution cameras), but it took me quite a while to decide which model to go with. The final decision wasn't based on anyone's recommendation or editorial comments. I decided to get the D800 because I felt would be useful in the widest number of situations rather than the more specialized D800E. Did I make "the right decision"? Who knows? But I have an amazing camera in my bag now and I love using it and I love the images that are coming out of it. </p>

<p>Internet reviewers could not have made that decision for me. It just doesn't work like that.</p>

[francisco_salaquanda]

<p>It must be a bad batch for the US. I polled local dealers here and there are no reports of this issue. I also called a colleague in Australia who is close to Nikon there and again, no reported issues. Sales of the D800 are going gangbusters.<br>

Its hard to figure out as you would think that the software would be the same for all. Maybe not?</p>

[jeremy_wakefield]

<p>Ariel. The only link of yours I can see is to the Mansurovs article. This isn't a Nikon response. Ming Thein's experience is one customer talking to one Nikon service department and not a Nikon response. If you know of any response from Nikon and you have posted it I have missed it and I apologise. Would you mind posting it again please?<br>

<br />Also I wasn't saying the internet is all accurate. The point I made is that Nikon used the "internet tattle" argument to mask a known fact identified by many of their customers. <br>

As far as the bad US batch theory goes, not true I'm afraid. I know of several people here in the UK who have had this issue. I myself had it in two bodies as I pointed out in my response above.<br>

Some of the above posts remind me of what happens when you criticise Apple on certain forums</p>

<p>William</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>Ariel - I also originally didn't read the article you linked, although I now have, and it definitely says "there is no response from Nikon". I've already seen on a rumour site that Nikon have been able to fix this problem by reprogramming the AF sensors, as you report; I trust them to do that if my D800E has this problem (when I eventually get the chance to test it). To me, it's not a question of <i>whether</i> the problem can be fixed but of Nikon being proactive about ensuring that all D800Es out there are working as intended - which means providing clear user test instructions, free postage on servicing (<i>if</i> the user's test shows a problem), making sure that service centres know what to do, and admitting that there's an issue in the first place. This won't make a difference to the fact that I bought a D800E and will buy Nikon products in the future (Nikon are in credit from my perspective), but there's definitely some good will at stake.</p>

[jeremy_wakefield]

<p>Sorry I forgot to add in response to your comments, Ariel, than I <strong>did</strong> speak to NPS and far from confirming they had a fix, they denied the problem existed. Doesn't square with your view I'm afraid.<br>

In summary, the reason people are annoyed ( and the reason Thom withdrew his recommendation ) is that far from your comments being accurate, the opposite of all of them is true.</p>

<p>William</p>

[Nick D.]

<p>It is ridiculous call Tom internet troll, for reporting some camera problems. When Rob Galbraith reported autofocus problem with Canon 1D Mark 3, initial reaction was the same, it took time till Canon accepted that there is problem with some units and offered free repair.</p>

 

[rossb]

<p>I am confused with what is a Nikon response or not it seems. I guess since Nikon is not going to chime in here I will just go with Thom Hogan's review. </p>

[bruce_brown]

<p>If this were STAR TREK (it isn't) ... If we were on the Bridge of the Enterprise (we are not) ... If Mr Spock were On Deck and had read these many pages (don't think he has)... he would certainly be heard to say ... "FASCINATING."</p>

[ant_nio_gomes]

<p>It could be interesting to some people to go to TH's site and read his post "Why now, dated July 24th, and verify that the men is not criticizing the camera's quality.</p>

[rodeo_joe1]

<p>Having owned my D800 for just over 24 hrs, I now feel qualified to contribute a response. ;-)</p>

<p>I just read Thom's review, and I'm really not too sure what he's bleating about when he says "..it's the best of cameras, and the worst of cameras". IMHO the cheese hasn't been moved very far at all, it's just considerably more matured. It took me all of 5 minutes to work out how the new Liveview button worked, and it would probably have been a lot quicker if I'd bothered to read the manual. Apart from that everything fell to hand from using the D700 with hardly any head-scratching needed. The things that are different are, on the whole, improvements and handy new features.<br>

Only dislikes so far are the little plastic gizmo to keep the USB cable from pulling out of the camera - and the awful plastic-hinged fragile battery door, like on the D700. The sprung battery is a big improvement though. It can now be removed while the camera's mounted vertically on a tripod.</p>

<p>As far as I can see my D800 has none of the "widely reported" faults. Infinity focus is bang on with all my MF lenses, AF points act as expected, the mirror is pristine, the battery supplied wasn't on the blacklist and all the firmware is right up to date. In addition to that, the overexposure I consistently experienced with my D700 seems to be absent in the D800. Sorry if this sounds like I'm gloating, but I thought I'd add my (so far) positive experience as some small counter to all the moans.</p>

<p>However, if my collection of lenses is at all typical, I'm not surprised that people might be wondering if their camera's AF confirmation is wonky. Nearly every one of my wide-aperture MF lenses exhibits some decentring or a slightly tilted focal plane when pixel peeped at 36MP resolution. Basically the camera is totally unforgiving of anything less than a perfect lens, and unfortunately, perfect lenses having wide apertures are a bit thin on the ground. Even my little Series E 75-150mm zoom was a bit disappointing on the D800, although it produces apparently pixel-perfect sharpness on the D700.</p>

[ilkka_nissila]

<p><em>Basically the camera is totally unforgiving of anything less than a perfect lens, and unfortunately, perfect lenses having wide apertures are a bit thin on the ground.</em></p>

<p>I can't really agree with the first part: the D800(E) makes every lens produce a bit sharper images by increasing the total system MTF. I have a few lenses which have excellent wide aperture performance: 35/1.4 AF-S, 85/1.4 AF-S, 200/2 AF-S come to mind. No, they're not perfect but again they're better on D800(E) than on earlier cameras, even wide open. Also if f/2.8 lenses are included then there is a long list of lenses with excellent performance at f/2.8. (Remember, what counts is the performance in the final print, not on the screen at 100% which only the photographer sees).</p>

[ilkka_nissila]

<p>In practice getting the focus "just right" with f/1.4, f/2 etc. lenses wide open is very challenging and at least I'm back at taking a bunch of shots to get one that is "just right". But this is an issue somewhat separate from the optical quality of the lens (though optical quality does affect the ease of both auto and manual focusing). One lens that I've found to be brilliant in AF (on cameras including the D800) is the 70-200 II. It it is a tough challenge to meet if Nikon wants all their lenses to reach that level eventually.</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>On that note, I'm intrigued to read that Nikon are allegedly often testing edge focus performance with a 50mm AF-D lens. The G lenses, maybe, but wide open I'm surprised you can actually see anything closely enough to check focus with the 50 f/1.4 or f/1.8 AF-D. Maybe I'm confused. Short of picking up a Samyang 35mm, I think my tests are going to be limited to f/2.8 and my 14-24 - not that I've actually had the chance to turn the camera on yet...</p>

[ilkka_nissila]

<p>I find the 50/1.8 AF D autofocuses very accurately for a lens of this type; when I got the 50/1.4 G AF-S I tested them side by side and the f/1.8D's autofocus was much more accurate than the 1.4G which required LV MF to show the quality of the lens (I had the same experience with the 1.4D; it is better at f/1.8 than the f/1.8D but only if manually focused is this revealed). I don't know why... probably the higher contrast of the 1.8G is responsible.</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>I'm reasonably happy with the centre performance of the 1.8 AF-D, I've just never found the corners to be especially high quality, wide open. Everything I've read (I'm still thinking about buying) suggests that the AF-S version is somewhat better. I'm interested that there's an autofocus accuracy difference, but I'm still surprised that the edge performance of the AF-D is good enough for the problem, given that this specific test requires maximum aperture. Maybe the edge focus point is far enough from the frame edge that the AF-D's performance is still decent there.<br />

<br />

I'll give both my 14-24 and my 50 f/1.8 AF-D a go when testing the AF sensor (if I ever get to leave the office before midnight) and see how they look.</p>

[ilkka_nissila]

<p><em>I'm still surprised that the edge performance of the AF-D is good enough for the problem</em></p>

<p>But all the phase detect AF points are still in the "good" center of the FX image area... if you look at the MTF of the 50/1.8D you can see that the fall really starts after 10mm from the center of the image and it is quite gradual. The outermost AF sensor is about 9mm from the center (I estimated this from an image of the sensor locations posted online, so I didn't actually measure it from the camera).</p>