georgia_verrells Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 <p>Hi,<br><br />I finished High school last year in Australia. I got great grades and moved to London, I have been working for almost a year at a financial firm opening accounts.. I can't see myself here for the rest of my life as my passion is more creative..<br>I have been thinking about going to uni to study photography or marketing. I realize that if I study photography it will be hard to make money etc although this is my passion.. I know if I study marketing and work in an office I could make decent money but is that what I want? I don't want to go to uni for 3 years doing photography and fail at that..<br>My portfolio is here www.flickr.com/georgiakatee let me know what you think. Or maybe I should major in marketing and minor in photography? But I don't know if that will be enough to make a career out of photography if that's what I choose..</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelChang Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 <p>Hi Georgia, there's an old saying that might help you decide: "I've been rich and I've been poor. Rich is better". :-) </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonybynum Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Today, more than ever, photography and the business of photography is a system. A system of parts and pieces that interconnect to create one whole system and without any one part, you stand little chance of the system working, therefore the odds of earning a positive living from the arts is greatly diminished. I'll share with you a little insight into the real world from a "self made," full time professional "photographer . . ." You said, "I know if i study marketing and work in a office I could make decent money but is that what I want." If you want to make it, on your own in photography, meaning youre not shooting for someone else, you will have to become an office person. The truth is marketing, accounting, business, social media, all are critical aspects to any business. I put "photographer" in quotes because while I derive 100% of my income from selling my images, and shooting photographs, I spend a majority of my time doing non photography activities like marketing and working in an office - my office! I also put "self-made" into quotes too because while I've done it on my own, there is no way I could have done it without my clients trust, their generous support of me and my vissions and ideas, and a break now and then from friends I've met along the way. So, unless you plan to find a job as a photographer, which is not a bad way to make some money, in fact you may find you like photo journalism, or shooting for a particular company or brand, you better learn marketing, and office work and learn to do it better than you now do, and for more hours - fact! Plan on things being lean for awhile - after you get out of school - no matter what route you take. . . If i were going to do it all over again I'd go to college, learn marketing, business, computers, web, and social media, all the while I'd be knocking doors down trying to find internships, or ways to work with photographers you admire. . . The very best photography learning is done with people who are already successful at what they do . . . I missed the boat, I've never spent time working for successful photographers because I did it all organically and on my own. Not the best way to build a photographer business, or at least not the fastest. Knowing how to "win" and how to be "successful" is as important as the trade or business you're in. If you hang out with successful people, and watch and learn as much as you can about how they operate, you too can be successful . . . Good luck, I wish you all the best! Tony Bynum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_jones3 Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 <p>I agree with Tony. Formal training in photography would improve that aspect of a career in photography. However, there many capable photographers make a skimpy living because of poor business practices and a lack of personal discipline. There are others getting rich with more business acumen than photographic ability. A few of them are obscenely rich.<br> A degree in business gets you started in that career. Then it's up to you. Total failure is unlikely. You can get a fairly good education in the craft and art of photography online and elswehere at little or no cost. So have countless others: competition is fierce. Schools may imprint their students with a style unsuitable to many potential customers. Much of their training is invisible to most customers. You still have to learn how to interact with <em>your</em> own customers. Your photography and personality will be more important than a degree.<br> A good career lead to my early retirement. Photography was occasionly part of the job, but always a hobby. It's more fun that way. <br> Your portfolio has shots that should please the subjects more than satisfy commercial clients. The Devil is in the details. Backgrounds are important. Nothing in a photo should detract from the overall intent. If you post photos online for critiques, most people will compliment you on the photos they like and say little about shortcomings. It's the irritatingly honest people who can best steer you away from mistakes.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User_1172872 Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 <p>My advice: don't try to earn a living doing something that others do as a hobby.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariosforsos Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 <p>As someone who studied something completely different (and went ALL the way to a PhD doing so) and, moreover, someone who has since managed to not only maintain a full-time consulting job AND a full-time photography studio, I can tell you that studying photography in a university or a college or something is NOT the way I'd go. Let me explain (before someone jumps on me and starts hitting me over the head with a Leica):</p> <p>Photography you can learned by taking evening courses, by working as an apprentice, by reading, researching and, of course, shooting, shooting, shooting. And, believe it or not, you can become a very good photographer this way - assuming you're dedicated, passionate and hard working enough. Hell, Peter Hurley never studied photography and he's one of the most successful portrait photographers in the world (just a name from the top of my head - there are countless others).</p> <p>But, just like the other have already said, there is no way you can adequately and quickly enough learn all the other aspects of running a photography business on your own. You need proper, organised, more-frequently-than-not, classroom-based tuition, you need a learning regiment and systematic coverage of specific topics in ways they will remain with you for good. THIS is something you'd have to attend a college or a university to get. No matter what people say, you cannot learn accounting by reading a "for Idiots" book and you cannot learn marketing by reading a book or two or watching a webinar on photography marketing. It may seem that way, but it really is not.</p> <p>So, should you go for marketing? I really cannot tell you. Assuming that you've somehow secured enough funding to allow you to leave your job and attend a full-time degree, I would advise you to have a long, heartfelt discussion with yourself and see what's most important to you: self-fulfillment or financial security. Once you answer that question truthfully, you'd be able to put your money where your mouth is and choose wisely.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonybynum Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 dont try to earn a living doing something that others do as a hobby might well be good advise from a banker, but it fails to recognize that millions and millions of people have made their livings doing what others do as a hobby . . . in fact, more than ever people are doing just that. Foolish advise if you ever want to "make-it," as a photographer . . . Sure, it would be great to be wealthy and then become a photographer, few can even do that . . . The truth is if you want to succeed you better have every bone in your body ready for the jaws of life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_henderson Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 <p>You can take a degree in Marketing , be successful, and then if you want become a photographer later with some money behind you. The reverse does not work.</p> <p>That said, the right decision could be swayed in either direction by clear signs of exceptional talent, obvious to others apart from yourself. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drjoder Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 <p>I personally am happier with photography as a hobby--although I'd like to get to a point that I have a good reputation for fine art prints. By doing it as a hobby, noone tells me what, when or how to shoot...I create the images I want to create...I have no client to please but myself. I would not want to HAVE to shoot a wedding, or portraits, or buildings, or home interiors, or sports, or... </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig_shearman1 Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 <p>Georgia -- You absolutely, positively without any argument do have to go to college and get a four-year degree. In today's world a college degree is the equivalent of a high school diploma 20-30 years ago. No disrespect to carpenters, plumbers, electricians, etc., but you cannot get a decent professional job without a degree. But for many careers, it doesn't matter what your degree is in, just that you have one. So in that regard, if photography is what you want to do with your life, major in photography. The other side of the coin is that you don't need four years of college education to be a photographer. It's a skill you can learn on your own, or assisting other photographers. And a degree in marketing would give you the skills you need to market your photography business, in addition to being a good qualification for other marketing jobs if you don't go into photography. So my advice is absolutely go get the college degree regardless of what you major in.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_earussi1 Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 <p>The key to successfully working for yourself is self-promotion, so taking marketing may not be too bad a choice anyway as you can always apply what you learn to your own photography business later.</p> <p>But to make it in any art field, which are all overcrowded, you have to have a high technical skill level, your own "look" or style, and, most important of all, excellent people skills. So if you have the dedication to work really hard and love people then you should be able to eventually survive as an artist, though this could take many years to achieve.</p> <p>Also as one who started as self-taught and then (much) later took classes, you can get to a certain level on your own but the classes really do help and can accelerate your learning. So if you're trying to be as efficient with money as possible, start with self-education and some good equipment and then progress to classes later--even community college classes can help a lot. Also find some photography clubs or professionals in your area who are willing to help you.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayabel Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 <p>Get the education in Business and Marketing then go make your hobby the Business that Market.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve m smith Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 <blockquote> <p>You absolutely, positively <strong>without any argument</strong> do have to go to college and get a four-year degree.</p> </blockquote> <p> </p> <p>Really? I will argue against that.<br> </p> <blockquote> <p>you cannot get a decent professional job without a degree. </p> </blockquote> <p> <br> I am an electronic design engineer and I don't have a degree.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 <blockquote> <p>You absolutely, positively <strong>without any argument</strong> do have to go to college and get a four-year degree.</p> </blockquote> <p> <br> Like Steve, I will take issue with that. I know coders, marketers and photographers who are doing just fine without that. Also, I have met two guys, one deceased, Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, neither of whom got degrees and both had "decent professional jobs."</p> Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george_ghio Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 <p>2 cents worth:</p> <p>If you want to teach photography a degree would be a bonus but won't guarantee a job nor will it guarantee that you will be a good photographer. To paraphrase an old saying "Those that can, do. Those that can't, get a degree. <br> Given the world financial state my advice would be that you come back to OZ, get a paying job in Bendigo and do the Diploma of visual Arts course at the Bendigo tafe majoring in photography. <br> When you have finished you will still have a job and will have acquired the skills to be a good photographer. Greatness is either in you or not. <br> The arts course at BRIT is one of the best in the country and is very much hands on.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelChang Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 <blockquote> <p>"I am an electronic design engineer and I don't have a degree."</p> </blockquote> <p>Steve, in Canada, you need a degree in order to refer yourself as an engineer. An "Electronics Designer" is a more appropriate term for someone who isn't certified by a professional order of engineers. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelChang Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 <blockquote> <p><em>"Hi Georgia, there's an old saying that might help you decide: "I've been rich and I've been poor. Rich is better". :-)"</em></p> </blockquote> <p>I apologize for the apparently facetious remark. It was meant to be a play on words as "rich" can be measured by net worth, by happiness, or any number of ways depending on ones values. <br> <br> Your choice of marketing as an option couldn't have been by accident; there must have been some background to the decision that you found attractive in the profession in order to include it. <br> <br> You're young, and there are many professional choices where you can exercise creativity other than photography which you might not be aware of. Most college grad jobs available will require some level of creativity from which many are deriving job satisfaction from daily. If you're good at what you do, the sky's the limit on how far you can take any profession you choose. <br> <br> Here's an example of a young lady becoming Cadillac's senior designer at age 28. I'll bet she loves her job:<br> <a href="http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2012/05/25/how-i-went-from-art-school-to-gms-senior-cadillac-designer-by-age-28/">http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2012/05/25/how-i-went-from-art-school-to-gms-senior-cadillac-designer-by-age-28/</a></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve m smith Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 <blockquote> <p>Steve, in Canada, you need a degree in order to refer yourself as an engineer.</p> </blockquote> <p>If I was in Canada I would still refer to myself as an engineer if I was doing engineering work</p> <p>I have worked with some people with engineering degrees who I wouldn't trust to change the batteries in a TV remote control!</p> <blockquote> <p>Those that can, do. Those that can't, get a degree</p> </blockquote> <p>So it would appear!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelChang Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 <p>Steve, I know what you mean and do agree, but it's not about competence. It's about misrepresentation as engineers are regarded professionally in the same manner as physicians and attorneys. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_reynolds10 Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 <p>In any profession where aesthetics are at play I would avoid university like the plague. You will be taught by the unsuccessful (those who can`t - teach) who will take you on all sort of loop da loops and twist your mind around with academic politics. An alternative might be to take courses a la carte that cover the practical, technical aspects and then apprentice with a photographer successful in your area of interest: fashion, food, portrait, wedding, journalism - whatever. This would be a little like going through the narrow door and certainly a lot tougher than plunking down your cash, sitting in classes for three or four years to get a degree but I would suggest that your chances of success over the long term will be much greater. But then who knows - life is a crap shoot.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve m smith Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 <blockquote> <p>It's about misrepresentation as engineers are regarded professionally in the same manner as physicians and attorneys.</p> </blockquote> <p> <br> I think having an engineering (or law or medical) degree and being incompetent is also misrepresentation.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_jones3 Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 <blockquote> <p>You absolutely, positively without any argument do have to go to college and get a four-year degree.</p> </blockquote> <p>Absolutely, positively not so for some of us. I retired from a rewarding career at age 37 with no degree. A few college courses taken along the way were for my personal enrichment, and had nothing to do with the career. College came after retirement; it was more fun that way. Too many of today's young college students are bent on sacrificing their education in favor of having their fun now. Indeed, today's college degree amounts to little more than a high school education of a generation or two ago, and elementary school learning of an earlier age. One grandfather is said to have had three years of formal schooling (his grammer confirmed that) but was successfully involved in banking as well as his vocation of farming. John M. Browning is a fine example of an untrained engineer. Edison had little schooling. People blessed with the ability and motivation to analyze the requirements of a career can get ahead without much formal training. Many people have to be taught such skills to be competative. There is an old saying, "Give a man a fish, and he can eat for one day. Teach him how to fish, and he can eat for the rest of his life." Likewise, teach a man how to one job, and he can do just that job. Teach him how to think, and he can figure out many jobs. Much formal training teaches the job, but not how to think.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelChang Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 <blockquote> <p><em>"Much formal training teaches the job, but not how to think."</em></p> </blockquote> <p>Jim, the world has changed. A college degree is absolutely an asset to any young person today stepping into the competitive job market. The only exception appears to be in the arts where formal training means little in the real world, but that's more of an anomaly. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 <blockquote> <p>You will be taught by the unsuccessful (those who can`t - teach) who will take you on all sort of loop da loops</p> </blockquote> <p><br />This is an old stereotype that has never been true. It is almost impossible to make a living in the arts without either teaching or doing commercial work. If you don't want to do commercial work, teaching is a great alternative, especially for artists who enjoy it. </p> Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig_shearman1 Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 <p>Steve and Jeff -- How old are you?<br />For those of us in our 50s or older, you may have gotten your foot in the door when it was still possible to do so without a degree. But look at most job applications today -- most are done online, and the section for education is very black and white. You have a degree or you don't. And they get processed by computer before any human looks at them. If you don't meet the requirement for a degree your resume doesn't get looked at. Even if it does get to a human, as time moves forward, more and more of the people making hiring decisions are of the generation where a degree was standard and expected. <br />Yes there are some incredibly talented people like Bill Gates and the late Steve Jobs but they are few and far between. And there are people who have started their own businesses -- photographers and others -- who don't have to answer to an HR gatekeeper. But I stand by my advice to young people -- get the degree.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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