Research/Compatibility: Older 4x5 Lenses?

[mark_tucker2]

I have been reading this forum for several weeks now. I'm just

amazed at all the various lenses that are available for the 4x5

cameras. (I'm used to Hasselblad 202, where I'm limited to

about five lenses, Thank God).

 

My new passion is the uncoated/primitive/historic lens style. With

all the combinations out there, how do you guys keep up with it

all? How do you know whether one barrel lens would mount into

a shutter? Are you all dependent on Steve Grimes?

 

For example, I found this page today, and I'm pacing the floor

with excitement, like I've found the new Titanic or something:

 

http://www.jay-tepper.com/lenses.html

 

Take just the very first lens for example; a 1.8 view lens!

Incredible! (If I go to buy one of these on this page tomorrow, and

one of you has beaten me to it, I'm showing up at your door).

 

Also, I ordered today a new Copal3 shutter from Steve Grimes.

My plan is to make my own single-element lens, and then

somehow glue it or mount it to this shutter.

 

Are there books or guides to show which of these crazy historic

lenses fit which shutter?

 

Thanks,

Mark Tucker, http://marktucker.com/

[edward_kang]

Mark,

 

Large format lenses don't need to start at f/1.8. This is because virtually all photographs are taken around f/16 to f/32, if not for sharpness, for depth of field.

 

As for barrel lenses, packard shutters. You just don't stick shutters into them. You can packard them yourself.

 

On ancient glass - you're walking into seldom-wandered territory. The way is frightful and oftentimes fruitless. You may be better off buying a cardboard box and a pinhole. Good luck though if it works out though. Your work may be next to Sally Mann or Mark Eschbaugh.

[jason_greenberg_motamedi]

In my very limited experience, very few older lenses actually fit into modern shutters w/o serious amounts of work. And since I don't have a lathe at home, I can't do this work. I just paid a chunk of money for Mr. Grimes to mount a 8" f/2.9 Pentac into a shutter. He does good work.

 

I do however have my own solution, which sort of works... I have one of those weird iris thingys which hold barrel lenses mounted on a Packard shutter, it works ok, although its pretty ugly. Maybe some day I will mount it on a big no. 5 shutter.

[mark_tucker2]

Honestly, I think I do things quite differently from most of the guys

here. I actually *do* shoot wide open as a rule, so that's why that

1.8 lens got me excited. (My main lens is a 152 f2.8 that I shoot

wide open).

 

I had a feeling I was venturing into uncharted territory with these

old lenses. One thing I'm not willing to do is work with some

old-style shutter; the shutter must be new and accurate, and not

force you to go to "T" to open the lens to focus. But I'm very willing

to have the lens be funky and "uncosmetic" as long as it works

properly under pressure in a job.

 

I much prefer buying an old used lens, rather than a new one,

'cause it's already got some mojo on it. But when I see these old

brand names that I've never heard of, and talk of flanges, and

barrels and the like, it scares me off a bit, if I felt like I really

needed to depend on it for a job.

 

Any resource manual info, or links, would be appreciated. The

Search is on!

 

MT

[robert_kennedy]

Seriously, either get a Packard or, if you don't need the movements, get a Speed Graphic.

 

Old glass that was never intended to be mounted in a shutter will not take well to it. Mounting a shutter is NOT an easy task. You have to calculate how to mount the shutter, and everything must be precisely aligned. This is why Steve Grimes is so valued. He knows how to do this. And he does it well.

[jim_galli4]

Hi Mark. Just some random thoughts to stimulate yours. You'll find out quick enough that almost nothing fits in anything. You'll also find out that the old funky glass is gosh darn sharp but flat from flare. Probably not what you had in mind. Also, I wouldn't rain on your parade for the world but how will you know what your aperture really is with that nice reliable perfectly timed shutter? Buy lots of Polaroid 55 while it's still on the shelf. A couple of possibilities for you though. You'll find that the old lenses that have air spaces between elements usually are simply threaded together. Group to group. So if it's the unsharp funk that you want, experiment with different combinations of what's already there. Like take group 2 of 4 out and put it back together and see what it does. Heliars are great with no back groups at all. The main thing is to have some fun. Also have a look at ortho/ lith graphic arts films. APHS from Fr**style Sales Co. They're cheap, and so slow you don't need a shutter, just a lens cap or a black derby.

[mark_tucker2]

To Jim Galli, (A Man After My Heart):

 

Killer answer! I know that you know what I want. I'll go tomorrow

to our old camera store and dig around in the bin and see what's

down there. Maybe that, plus the Flea Market this month.

 

That's the way I discovered the PlungerCam; I just took my

camera body to the store and held up loupes til I found one that

focused, then went to work on it to get it mounted.

 

I actually bought this Cambo reflex viewer thing with my Ebony,

and it wasn't two days before I'd taken the thing apart, trying to

make the magnifier in the reflex viewer be a lens. It's actually

quite nice, just holding it up. I'm waiting on arrival of another

Linhof board, so I can officially mount it (with LiquidNails of

course). No shutter there either, but thinking I could make some

kind of aperture out of cardboard to get it stopped down enough.

Maybe even a series of apertures that could be taped on in

various lighting conditions.

 

I gotta have a modern shutter, 'cause you know I'll want to use

this for a real job sometime, and I've gotta be able to count on it.

 

Thanks, Mark

 

Plunger: http://marktucker.com/plungercam/

[dan_fromm1]

I recently did a google search for that useful compendium of knowledge the lens collector's vade mecum. Failed to find it, so I can't direct you to a source. If you can get to the LUG or RUG I think that Marc Small can direct you. The vade mecum is a labor of love on CD by a couple of mad and very dedicated englishmen. A huge catalog, partially raisonne, of some of the lenses some of the major manufacturers have produced. Inconsistent, infuriating at times, invaluable. If you can find it, get it.

 

About what fits what. Um, when in doubt think sneaky front mounting. If it can be done at all -- some lenses are just too big for it -- it need not be very expensive. Two basic options, a sleeve that holds the lens and somehow screws into the front of the shutter or a sleeve that holds the lens on a board in front of a Packard or a focal plane (think Speed Graphic) shutter. Its more elegant if the sleeve is threaded to accept the lens, but if need be the lens can be held in place with set screws. Be careful doing this last with old lenses in brass barrels, the brass can be very thin. MUCH less expensive than the surgery needed to put a lens properly in shutter and it works.

 

Have fun.

[jnanian]

if you don't need a flash sync, a speed graphic might work for you

-

just get a calumet shutter speed tester to see what your curtain

is falling at ...

you won't have spacing problems putting the whole lens ( cells

AND barrel) infront/behind a shutter (like you would mount a

packard shutter). no harm done experimenting a little with

junque lenses. if you get clipping, flare or vignetting, you might

actually like the way it looks.

otherwise mr. grimes is a alchemist, and will probably give you

ideas / suggestions you hadn't thought about.

[john_kasaian1]

Mark, Great question! What about this----since you want a modern accurate shutter, get ahold of something like a copal, prontor or late compur, the bigger the better, and a length of Schedule 40 PVC pipe big enough so you can cut threads on it to screw into the front of the shutter, leaving about a half inch sticking out that you can plumb these terriffic old lenses to. Theres lots of plastic do-dads, slipjoints and stuff that would fit, or you could just liquid nails that puppy in situ. I wouldn't think having someone cut threads onto plastic pipe would be an expensive job. Just a thought. Good luck!

[jim_galli4]

Hi Mark. See, twisted minds think alike. Another oldie but goodie to look for are lenses with "waterhouse stops" That way you can put any diabolical thing that will fit into the clip slot for an aperture. jg

[jason_greenberg_motamedi]

The Vade Medcum can be purchased here:

 

http://www.mwclassic.com/acatalog/MW_Classic_Cameras_VADEMECUM_CD_ROM_157.html

[donald_miller1]

If it were me, I would go a spend my bucks on a new Ebony...then get that new number 3 Copal and figure out how to screw one of those old green smallish coke bottles to it...for a really unusual effect...develop that puppy in Pyro...print in on a breadwrapper coated with platinum and forget the darn gloves ...don't mind the brown fingernails...the old lady will think that they are kinda cute in a cavemanish sort of way...

[tim_atherton2]

you might just want to convert your Hassy to using something like the Plungercam...

 

http://marktucker.com/plungercam/index.html

[john_kasaian1]

Its me again. I was thinking you can probably cut your own threads into plastic pipe if you can find a nut with the same inside diameter thread as your copal(or what ever else you want to use) Just grind a taper on the pipe to get the nut started, turn the nut with a wrench until it cuts the mount of thread you'll need, cut the un-needed tapered part off and back off the nut: sha-zaam! If that dosen't work you can have S.K.Grimes make you one out of brass or aluminium!

[mark_tucker2]

This letter arrived this morning from Mr. Grimes in Rhode Island.

I have never been to Rhode Island in my entire life, but isn't there

just something in each of you that makes you want to drop what

you're doing and drive there today and see his machine shop?

Yes, I know, I understand; I feel the same way. But in a way, I

never want to meet him; I just want to picture him as this lively

old man with a long white beard, who sits by a northern-facing

window all day long with a stained apron, and who just drills and

tinkers and messes with old lenses. At five pm, he has one

glass of rich red wine, then some little dwarfs come in a

horse-drawn carriage and take him home; way way high in the

mountains...-MT<P>

 

--------<P>

 

(snip)<P>

 

<I>Thanks for being in touch -- I cannot stress to you too much

the value of experimenting with Plus Spectacle lenses. Some of

these early single meniscus lenses are, in fact, spectacle

lenses since that's what opticians in those days had to work

with. <P>

 

To approximate the obtainable speed from a spectacle lens use

the formula: DF=FL Where D is the diameter in millimeters of

the aperture (45mm in the case of a Copal #3) and FL is the

focal length in millimeters. Two +4.0 spectacle lenses used

together (one in front and one in back of the shutter) would yield

a "Periscop" lens of 125mm focal length at f 2.8. Spectacle

lenses are available up to 70mm in diameter which would yield

a 125mm lens of f 2.0 if used in a larger shutter. Single element

spectacle lens blanks are readily available in "powers" up to

+10 (100mm focal length.)<P>

 

The lenses you cite are more valuable for their provenance than

their practicality. Looking at the samples of your excellent work I

am sure that you would benefit from experimentation. <P>

 

In addition to spectacle lenses (which can be used to

manufacture a repeatable product which I am interested in,

naturally) there is a world of miscellaneous "found" lenses of

various powers. We can get really zany with stuff like this. A few

years ago I helped a photographer by the name of David Zadig

with a similar experiment. It was written up in PDN but I forget

the issue etc. He has since moved to Norway and settled

down.<P>

 

I am enthusiastic about experimenting with these but need and

value the input of an artist such as yourself. <P>

 

Price to re-mount one of the cited Pictorial lenses to shutter (with

the limitation of 45mm full aperture of the shutter) would be

about $200.00 and duplicate the performance of the lens in its

original lensbarrel.<P>

 

</i>

 

-------------<P>

 

(end snip)<P>

 

In this day of faxes and emails and space travel, it's just weirdly

comforting to know that there are guys like him, sitting by a

toolbench, working with real tools, and real grease, working with

a bunch of other crotchety old men, who sit around bitching

about their wives and their relatives. <P>

 

My grandfather died several years ago, but I think I've found an

"honorary grandfather" to replace him, (at least in my mind).<P>

 

(With my luck, the guy's probably about 24 years old in real life,

with some MBA from Harvard, who had some grand scheme of

starting this fake "old world business". He probably works out of

the back room of some Kinkos, somewhere in a flourescent-lit

strip mall somewhere in Cleveland).

[jim_edmond2]

Mark,

 

In the spririt of the Plungercam, I think you want to follow Steve Grimes' advice. There was an article about building these type of lenses in the July/August 2002 issue of View Camera magazine called "Hand-Assembling Lenses for the View Camera" by John Siskin (800-894-8439 for ordering back issues).

 

I enjoyed looking at the photos on your website (Joe Clark lives on!), and look forward to seeing what you do with the Ebony.

[john_kasaian1]

Mark, as you've discovered, machinists are an interesting lot. About eight years ago I had to take a chunk of Super Cub to a shop in Belgrade Montana where the only factory jig without a waiting list was available. As I drove up to the farm house I was greeted by several dogs and a right jolly ol' elf who directed me to the barn "out back." He proudly gave me the tour of his shop--- it was a very old worldly craftsman kind of place, full of a mixture of industrial revolution era stuff and the WW2 surplus Milspec looking things---until we came to a door where there was an incredible racket coming from behind the door. The fellow handed me a pair of hearing protectors before we went inside where I found a computer operated machine that would take, bend, stamp and mill pieces of steel and spit 'em out onto a pallet. It looked like something out of James Bond! "This is how we make slot machine parts!" he shouted above the noise. He had a contract for an Indian casino. If you ever want to spend an interesting afternoon, take a machinist out for a cup of coffee---and prepare to be amazed!

[mark_tucker2]

To John Kasaian,

 

Yes, that "perception" of what you do, and how you work, is so

important. No matter what machines they used, it was important

to do it in a barn "out back".

 

Once I switched over to a digital darkroom about four years ago, I

always have seemed a bit of a fraud. My pictures are funky, and

scratchy, and organic, but I secretly do everything I do with a

big-ass G4 Mac, an Imacon scanner, and an Epson 9600. My

studio is pumped to the max with cable modems, I'm FTPing

pictures out across the country, sending emails, and geeked out

like nobody else I know.

 

Since prints out of the Epson printer have such a negative

connotation about them, "because they were done with a

computer", I always thought it would be best to build a set in the

front part of the studio -- there would be hay on the floor; an old

8x10 enlarger with sparks coming out the top; a bunch of old

men with those head-mounted magnifying glasses walking

around; and then there'd be a mannequine of me, behind an old

11x14 Deardorff studio camera.

 

If you found the secret trap door, under the hay, you walk down

some steps to the germ-free sterile environment where I actually

did all the work. Flourescent lights, sodium vapor, stainless

steel appliances, the full Monty. There I'd be, sitting behind the

Mac, with my dorky glasses on, drinking coffee, still single, a box

of Kleenex sitting on my desk, scanning the web for 35-year old

women who still might want to have a baby...

 

Like in The Wizard of Oz, it's all an Ilusion.

 

-MT

[Troll]

Get a GraFLEX (not a Graphic).

[david_goldfarb]

Recognizing the need for a modern shutter with accurate speeds, you still might consider a Packard shutter to experiment with different lenses and mock-ups, then have Steve Grimes make up real adapters to use the lenses that you really like in your modern shutter(s). I have a big Ilex #5 shutter with threaded adapters so that I can use three different lenses on it, and you could do the same with a Copal #3.

 

I handy thing that I've found for really big old portrait lenses that can't be mounted in any modern shutter is a front-mounted leaf shutter. It has three set screws to attach it to the front of the lens, and three settings--I (about 1/15 sec.), B, and another setting to open the shutter for focusing, and is operated with a bulb like a Packard. I don't know the manufacturer or how old it is, but hunt around and you may find one.

[dan_fromm1]

Further on David Goldfarb's suggestion, if you're lucky you'll find a Thornton-Pickard roller blind shutter that's big enough. As he suggested for his huge leaf shutter (Luc, maybe?), these too can be put in front of the lens. And if you're a real barbarian (I am, you should see some of the lovely gear I've dismantled) you can make the equivalent from a Speed Graphic.

[colin carron]

The lens collector's vade mecum can be obtained from Dr Neil Wright. He can best be contacted through the MPP users group website at :

 

www.mppusers.freeuk.com

 

The vade mecum comes on a CD and in Acrobat pdf format.

[robert_a._zeichner1]

Now don't laugh guys, I have on numerous occasions, taped lenses to a shutter by using the lens flange. I had just gotten a old Wollensak 15" Apo Raptar and wanted to use it on an upcoming trip. Having no time for having an adapter made, I simply taped the flange to the front of my Copal 3 with a dozen or so small strips of 3M 235 black photographic tape. It would't exactly pass seismic tests, but there was ample adhesion to keep the lens "mounted" for the entire trip without a problem. Smaller lenses could first be mounted on some 1/8" thick chipboard available at art supply stores. A cheap compass equipped with an X-acto swivel knife works very well for cutting holes in this material. Paint or tape black with 235 and then tape the cardboard flange to the shutter.

[mark_tucker2]

I got the Cambo reflex viewer mounted onto the Ebony. Who

knows what kinda lens is in that viewer, but it feels like about f2

or f2.8. No shutter, so I'm just putting cardboard over the lens,

pulling the dark slide of the Type55, and then let it stay open for

about a second. Pictures look nice so far, blurry on edges and

sharp (kinda) in the middle. I'm clearing the negs now, to scan

them.

 

MT<div></div>