Mentors

[Norma Desmond]

<p>M, my best mentoring interactions have come over the phone once I've sent my mentor a photo. I have also found email a lousy method of communication, though I use it sometimes myself. My mentoring relationship involves being asked a lot of questions, and there seems to be an advantage for a dialogue to take place as opposed to a more one-way communication. Tone of voice (which you still get over the phone) helps a lot in overcoming the disadvantages you talk about in not having face-to-face interactions. I know what you mean about that. Even over the phone, honestly, we've had some real miscommunications at times. Interestingly, though, in the long run, some of those miscommunications have led to some epiphanies for me, since we seem to have the perseverance and trust to work through the misunderstandings and even the hurt feelings at times. The gut-check moments, the uncomfortable moments, the sensitivities all come with the territory when getting involved in the more personal, more expressive side of photograph-making.</p>

<p>Yeah . . . cropping . . . I generally leave that to the PN crowd to obsess about. </p>

[m_stephens]

<p>Fred G.,<br>

Got a darned good laugh there - thanks. When it comes to cropping, I ask my wife - she's an art director. </p>

<p>I am simply not a phone person. For me, 30-seconds is a long call. When the phone rings, I cringe. I'm too visual of a communicator to make phone chatter work for me. Hell is a smart phone.</p>

<p>I had a mentor when I started my first business. I was about 24, he was in his late 60s and had been a very successful entrepreneur. Yes, we talked about business details, but more importantly about how to tackle life in such a way to make the other details work. I guess you would say it was a broader scope than simply teaching.</p>

<p>If I made it sound like I was looking for "photography lessons", that's not it at all. And I certainly have no interest in becoming a professional photographer - I am retired. I am looking for a broader perspective on really working through the art & life intersection so that I can make my path more direct to the discover of whatever it is I am trying to work out through my photography (that's why initially I assumed this to be a "philosophical" question).</p>

<p>I'm sure this is simply personal style and preference on my part, but there is no substitute for in-person discussion. Having a nice stack of prints and my marked up work to pour over, and reference work going back decades - I don't think that's going to happen on email, or telephone for me.</p>

<p>I was hoping others had some experience with being a protege, and would offer up how it helped their photography (or not). I suspect others get stuck too, even after many years of photography. I want to be sure I am going in the most fruitful directions.</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p>As ironic as it may sound, to be honest, the visual is not always the best or only route to awareness in photography. In terms of the mentoring interaction, sometimes being encouraged or even loosely forced to articulate things has been very helpful to me on the visual stuff. An important question to ask of myself or allow myself to be asked by others is "What are you wanting to express?" That can be a very hard question to address. And until I put it into some kind of words I may not be able to create a meaningful or effective or descriptive vision for it. That's not to say the words will substitute for the photo or the vision or capture everything the vision will eventually convey, but the words can help me not be in denial and can help me not avoid more depth. Forcing an articulation of at least some extent of feelings can push me to visually express something. Some of the biggest breakthroughs come when I realize I am actually NOT expressing visually what I feel. It's easy to side-step that or be in denial about it if I de-emphasize articulation too much.</p>

<p>On a more specific level, M, you said something in the "experiment" thread that caught my attention:</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>Which is to say they [my photos] are methodical attempts to verify the premise that "this subject is interesting."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Two things that stand out to me here are the idea of "methodicalness" and even more importantly the emphasis on subject. Any quote, of course, has limits but a lot of the oft-repeated ones have something deeper to say than what might appear on the surface. One that comes to mind in this light is Winogrand's . . .</p>

<p><em>"Photography is not about the thing photographed."</em> and <em>"The photograph is a thing in itself. And that's what still photography is all about."</em></p>

<p>Now you'd rarely if ever catch me saying what photography is all about, and my subjects (usually people) are very significant to me, of course. But a recognition that there are some vital ways in which photographs are separate and separable from the subject and that a subject-dominant approach could stifle the breadth of how we see and make photographs can be pivotal and inspirational.</p>

[AlanKlein]

<p>I'm open to mentoring right now. Anyone wanting to help me improve either in technique or vision or both, please go to my PN or Flickr site and comment on a picture or two. You can send me an email if that's more to your liking. Maybe we can strike up a relationship and regularly mentor each other. I'd be grateful!</p>

<p>Josh, if your listening, this might be a way to improve the Critique formula here. Set up a page where people can list their names and desires in looking for a mentor that could expand the critique section and improve everyone's photography.</p>

<p>Thanks. Alan.</p>

[luis_g]

<p>Having been on both sides of mentoring, in my experience, there are many paths available depending on the energies on both sides of the equation. It can be stacked on one end, the other, or anywhere in between. It can be very visual, or not. Casual or intensive. Open or taciturn. One or two way communication. Free or expensive. Whether or not it will work depends on those involved, where they come from and where they're at during the interaction. Remember, synergy can be explosive.</p>

<p>One of the best, most sought-after photography mentors I've ever known, a man with a long history in photography, who's known many of the greatest photographers of this generation and the one before, does mentoring via email, web and sometimes phone, is expensive, very demanding, will work you to death, rendering brief but incisive critiques, often disregards questions, does not do workshops, and is worth every cent. (He is also booked and has a waiting list with paid-up non-refundable deposits, so don't ask).</p>

<p>One thing to keep in mind is that mentoring is not like hiring a caterer and selecting from a menu. If you knew exactly what you needed, you wouldn't need outside help. Some of the most successful mentors are not kind and gentle and handing you things on a silver plate.</p>

<p>As the song goes, you can't always get what you want, but if you try real hard, you just might find you get what you need -- sometimes.</p>

<p>Ps. Don't waste anyone's time unless you have an open mind and are ready to learn. </p>

[alan_zinn]

<p>After moving to a new area I was pretty much in your same quandary - wandering with no affinity base or guru until I made a concerted effort to do something about it.<br>

My solution was to take an arts oriented class with the potential to keep me fulfilled for a long time. The instructor is a patient nurturing mentor to us all. Another highly valued mentoring environment came with a long association with a coop gallery. I have just recently been accepted as a member of a local coop.<br>

Another approach for you might be a salon. If you know other people who share your interests, form a small select group. With a salon you gain the synergy from the participants. Start with two or three other people at a coffee shop. You can invite notable and accomplished guests at a more formal setting like a library. I participated in a photography salon for over twenty five years until I moved away.</p>

[m_stephens]

<p>Alan Zinn,<br>

Thanks. The salon idea is another good one. Not quite the same as a mentor, but also a means of getting deeper levels of feedback than just "cropping 101**."</p>

<p>**I notice that cropping comes up as a joke reference fairly often here too, as it does in just about all photography circles. In the past few years hearing lots and lots of cropping comments during critiques I reckoned that usually there is a disconnect between what the photographer thinks is the subject and what the viewer sees as the subject. When someone suggests a radical cropping to me, I take it to me that I didn't do a good job selling my idea of the subject - the viewer isn't seeing it and wants to make a new subject. </p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p>M, I wouldn't take the cropping thing very personally. It's just the easiest and most superficial thing to focus on and that's about as deep as most people get.</p>

<p>Also, notice that suggested crops usually make a photo look more like other good photos. They most often take away a sense of individuality or personality in favor of a kind of mass-approved view, but then again a lot of critiquing unfortunately does that, missing the point completely. Hopefully, mentoring is a little more individualized and sophisticated.</p>

[m_stephens]

<p>Fred G.,<br>

"Hopefully, mentoring is a little more individualized and sophisticated."</p>

<p>You nailed it there. Our (my) normal critiques at club meetings and such are more superficial and technique oriented. "Could the foreground be sharper?" - that sort of thing. It doesn't really assess whether or not any particular vision or communication is working or not. And that's the way it was designed - not as an in depth thing. And of course, I am so far into my own deep well that I think it is all working perfectly - even if it is falling flat on its face! </p>

<p> </p>

[Norma Desmond]

<blockquote>

<p>And of course, I am so far into my own deep well that I think it is all working perfectly - even if it is falling flat on its face!</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yes, I hate to say it, but some good mentoring can help you become more . . . ahem . . . objective in looking at your own work. :-)</p>

[jainamishra]

<p>A suggestion :<br /> Could Photo.net consider putting up a "matchmaking" page where Mentors & Mentees could meet?<br /> <br /> People looking for mentors could put up a a profile / portfolio etc and prospective mentors could take it up from there.<br /> <br /> And then the relationship could evolve from there.</p>

<p>Somewhat like the classifieds section - except that the goal here is a long term one. <br /> <br /> Possible?</p>

[aplumpton]

<p>Finding an artist-photographer who can help with your artistic approach (that is, exclusive of the more technical side of photography) is not easy. Many are very engaged in their own creativity. I joined recently a group of some sixty local artists of many different types of expression and also have the ears and eyes of a few artist friends (sculptor, poet, painter) who engage in other art media than the photograph. It may not be as pertinent as the first-mentioned type of mentor, whose sustained interaction could be gold to an evolving photographer, but members of the art group and those friends are often good sources of interaction when I want to get critical feedback on my projects or series of images. In such cases, one has to expose himself to hearing things that can rock previously held conceptions. A sense of equilibrium is necessary as well, as creativity is ultimately a very personal activity, and many who have succeeded have held strong and independent notions of their approach and practice. The importance is to obtain feedback and advice to help you in what you want to create, and not what some art movement or other photographer suggests that you create. </p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>Can some one give a detailed example showing how a mentor directed them or informed of an approach toward photography they hadn't considered before that made an improvement or changed some specifics that lead to something clearly caused by the use of a mentor?</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p>Tim, good mentoring is a substantial, sophisticated, and ongoing relationship and activity.It's often not about specifics as much as gestalt.</p>

<p>Early on, I would talk about the stories of the people whose portraits I was making, yet I was doing a lot of close-ups and wasn't actually showing much of the story, environment, or context. My mentor had no particular agenda regarding how I approached my portraits, other than wanting me to find my own way and voice. He would ask me questions about what stories I felt I was telling or showing and would elicit from me thoughts on how I could reinforce that and perhaps show more of what I was talking about. Eventually, this led to my pulling back more, including more context and surroundings, working with pose and gesture.</p>

<p>At a certain point, he also started talking a lot about dynamics and movement (not just blur, but a sense of movement, including the viewer's eye movement around the photo). Also, the difference in feel between a static and a more dynamic photo.</p>

<p>The two photos that follow are, first, an early one, a candid, somewhat static, somewhat removed b/w street portrait, and then a later portrait of someone in his house, which I consider more engaged, more dynamic, and to have more of a narrative. I figured out how I wanted to get there. He helped me zero in on where I was going. It was not a matter of specific direction or suggestions but more about his ability to empathize and help draw me out . . . patiently.</p><div></div>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>Brilliant and clear explanation, Fred. The before and after photos really helped.</p>

<p>That's pretty much how I figured it worked but wasn't sure on specific approaches and limits that distinguish teaching from mentoring without being distracted by the concern on when it may drift into an ego massage on both sides.</p>

<p>Photographer's mentor almost sounds like an image language shrink or therapist for lack of a better description.</p>

<p>Thanks for the clarity, Fred.</p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>Another question, Fred. Did you find it necessary for your mentor to have established credentials in the field of photography? Degrees? References? Any other documentation?</p>

<p>Or did you only rely on this person's work?</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p>Tim, credentials wouldn't matter much to me one way or the other. His work is work I happen to appreciate and like a great deal, but it is his empathy with what I am doing and his skill as a mentor and communicator that has been significant. Most importantly, his perceptive eye usually convinces me that he sees well and also sees well beyond the surface of things. He seems intuitively to understand and relate to photography and is able to convey that and share it with me. Even when he talks about other photos, his insights usually ring very true to me, though he tells me I'm the better wordsmith.</p>

<p>There is a reciprocal therapeutic relationship between us for sure.</p>

<p>We each have strong egos and our own insecurities as well, about which we try to be honest. We butt heads now and then (less now than then) and trust each other enough to work through it, even when difficult. We've known each other for a long time, which has helped establish the relationship and keep it evolving.</p>

[chelsea]

<p>Mentors....I've been lucky, had a whole bunch of them, helped me with a wide variety of aspects, from composition and lighting to the technical how to use the camera and lenses. I've cultivated friends in our local camera club, people in my own life, and have found several here at p.net and on another site. Some are pros, some not. All of them have been very helpful over the years, and I've tried to share what I've learned or what tips I've found in return.</p>

<p>Tim asked for specifics, a couple examples: there are a couple people in our photo club who share my love of nature photography, we've gone "out in the field" a few times together. I'm good at finding things, and they showed me ways of using different angles, lighting, and lenses for better views of a subject. Someone I got to know on another site used to travel back and forth from the States to Toronto, often stopped by my house to visit and look at images on my computer. H e taught me many things about photoshop, helped me learn how to use my new digital camera, and some tips on photographing tabletop still images. I had taken a basic course in photography at the local college many years ago, that gave me a good general understanding of how the camera works, and how to compose and shoot a photograph. From there I've sought out people who could help improve in technical and artistic aspects.</p>

<p>The suggestion has been made to set up something to team up mentors with people looking for mentoring. Something I really miss on this site was the "live chat", I made some friends on there, we discussed all aspects of photography, you got instant feedback. The internet has provided me with resources wayyyyy beyond anything I could get locally.</p>

[luis_g]

<p><strong>Tim - "</strong>That's pretty much how I figured it worked"</p>

<p>That's how it works sometimes, but you are making a mistake in assuming that's how it works every time for all people. Or that is how it will be for you. It is going to work in ways you cannot imagine or begin to understand, and that is to the good.</p>

<p>As to credentials, I know another ex- LIFE magazine photographer who has extensive credentials, many ultra-well-known photos, is widely published, etc., and I wouldn't want him for a mentor. I had an uncle who recently died, a lawyer and university professor who never photographed other than family snapshots, but was a life-long mentor, a man of few but incisive words. Many of his life lessons affected my photography in ways I am still beginning to understand.</p>

<p>In my experience, my mentors did/do not just guide me in the present and in person, but inject things that I was not ready for at the time, but that in the future are triggered and unfold into very useful stuff. Now that I mentor others, I find myself doing the same thing, planting seeds for the future.</p>

[steve m smith]

<blockquote>

<p>Way too much tweed for me.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Too much? Not possible!</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>Another question, Fred. Did you find it necessary for your mentor to have established credentials in the field of photography? Degrees? References? Any other documentation?<br>

Or did you only rely on this person's work?<br /><br /></p>

</blockquote>

<p><br />Actual results and actions trump credentials every time. </p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<blockquote>

<p>Or that is how it will be for you. It is going to work in ways you cannot imagine or begin to understand, and that is to the good.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Great, Luis. I'm looking forward to being a mentor.</p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>D'ya think I'ld make a good mentor?...</p><div></div>

[alan_zinn]

<p>Just for the hell of it I googled "mentors":<br>

<a href="http://www.inc.com/guides/growth/24509.html">http://www.inc.com/guides/growth/24509.html</a></p>

<p>...and " finding a muse":<br>

<a href="http://blogs.hbr.org/schrage/2012/01/need-innovation-inspiration-ge.html">http://blogs.hbr.org/schrage/2012/01/need-innovation-inspiration-ge.html</a><br>

<a href="http://strandsofpattern.blogspot.com/2012/03/personal-muse-hotline.html">http://strandsofpattern.blogspot.com/2012/03/personal-muse-hotline.html</a><br>

Seems like good "Earn big bucks at home!" occupations.</p>

<p><em>Who ya gonna call?</em></p>

 

[m_stephens]

<p>I don't imagine there is a mentoring credential is there? I think the point it to find someone who has accomplishments you already respect.</p>

[luis_g]

<p>Look on Angie's List.</p>