The story behind the image - helpful or not?

[profhlynnjones]

<p>To Steve Gubin</p>

<p>Steve are you related to my brother and sister photographer friends in and from Milwaukee?</p>

<p>Lynn<br>

lynn@austincc.edu</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>The photo Fred posted needs no words it speaks volumes.</p>

<p>To add words takes away from a pwerful image by a lesser Art.</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>It is a stand alone it need no emotions, words, feelings....</p>

<p>It is a photograph powerful in its own story...do not degrade it.</p>

[jonathancharlesphoto]

<p>@<a href="../photodb/user?user_id=499395">Allen Herbert</a> - I agree it's a powerful image, but are you saying that the title "Dad" adds <em>nothing</em> to (or even degrades) your appreciation of it?<br>

I am interested that you find it so, but for me it gives an extra dimension of significance and allows a deeper understanding of the situation and the person portrayed.</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>"but are you saying that the title "Dad" adds <em>nothing</em> to (or even degrades) your appreciation of it?"</p>

<p>　<br /> No, not really, althought in the broader sense of the Photograph it could be anyones Dad...that is part of its quality it,it transends beyond more that just a family Photograph..I think the fact that it was Fred's Dad has enabled them to connect with deeper feelings and understandings which is reflected in the Photo.</p>

<p>　<br /> In in a more general way what I'm saying is....</p>

<p>Does a poem of words need a Photograph to illustrate it? Equally does a poem of light need words to illustrate it?</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>" I agree it's a powerful image"</p>

<p>Why do you think it is a powerful image? Let us share our thoughts.</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>Is there a story behind the photo... or, just a nice image of the ravages of time from a bloke you like.</p>

<p>Does it tell you anything about the Photographer and Subject...is it a poem of light ,or, just a nice photo which you like.. because.</p>

<p>Pray do tell.</p>

[jonathancharlesphoto]

<p>It's powerful firstly because it affects me emotionly. It's often a challenge to analyse the phenomenology of an artwork, but here goes...</p>

<p>It's more than just a snap of an ill old man - though this is in itself an unusual start and more original as a subject than most photos on p.net. the subject presents an unvarnished openness to the photographer (and through him to us priveleged viewers). His expression says that he accepts his situation with peace even though he would rather it were different. The quiet wisdom of the soul contrasts with the crumbling body and possibly deteriorating cognition.</p>

<p>The composition is beautifully balanced: he is placed slightly to the right, facing to the right so there is more space behind him than ahead (like his life) but overall it is a centred layout which has the semiotic of stasis - he is not going anywhere, suspended in this moment, boxed in by the surrounding door frame. His body, distorted by the wide-angle perspectiveand supported on the medical contraption appears nothing like the normalactive physique he once enjoyed. The lighting picks him out in heroic Caravaggio-style chairoscuro, again contrasting with, and transcending, his rather pitiful physical state.</p>

<p>"I think the fact that it was Fred's Dad has enabled them to connect with deeper feelings and understandings which is reflected in the Photo."... and alows us to see that.</p>

 

[jonathancharlesphoto]

<p>(apologies for the typos)</p>

[dan_south]

<p>Background information on the subject can enhance the experience of viewing the photo. As a photographer, I also enjoy reading about what was going on during the shoot. Does this mean that the image is inferior in some way, i.e. that it doesn't stand on its own? Maybe in some cases, but not necessarily. Photos present only so much information in their motionless, soundless, two-dimensional frame. The back story offers additional information. Regardless of how good (or bad) the photo might be, the back story will add a dimension to our understanding of the image. If that also enhances our viewing experience, so much the better.</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p>Jonathan, I appreciate the way you've approached the photo. It's great to hear your thoughts. It's funny, I had taken a bunch of pictures of my dad before this, while he was bent over his desk praying. At one point, he looked up at me with a smile and said very casually and with his usual sense of humor, "What the hell are you doing?" He couldn't imagine that I'd want pictures of any of this! Once I had his attention, I asked him to roll back to the doorway so I could take one more. He obliged. I had been thinking about taking this shot the night before because I had seen the previous day how great the lighting and framing would be. He chuckled again when I knelt down, as if I were doing something so strange. He would not be one to play to the camera, so I loved the way he just looked off to the side and I snapped. One shot. This was taken about 3 years ago. He's still doing OK at 87. Cognition is sharp but he's losing his voice due to M.S. and so it's getting harder and harder for him to communicate, which is a real drag. He's really quite a guy.</p>

<p>_____________________________</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>Does a poem of words need a Photograph to illustrate it? Equally does a poem of light need words to illustrate it? --Allen</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Allen, for me it's rarely a question of <em>need</em> and more a question of want, desire, and what works at any given time. Whether a title and/or accompanying text works with a photo is situational, not universally welcome or distracting.</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>"It's powerful firstly because it affects me emotionly"</p>

<p>And to my mind that is what a strong photograph does...or, works the viewers imagination. Thanks for your input,Jonathan ,it was very good and revealing.</p>

<p>Vids, still photographs, discussions...the ins and outs about a particular war zone, and the whys and wherefores we are constantly assaulted with until we reach a state of numbness.</p>

<p>　<br /> Perhaps just a small number of still photographa of a particular war zone, with no words, just the photographs which are displayed in silence each for a minute would really sink the message home.</p>

<p>The emotions,imagination, finally would be able to live and breath and see.</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>Do you really need the background the story about this young lady....does not the photograph tell all...</p>

<p>Do you really want to murder her for some belief, cause, or, whatever.</p><div></div>

[Norma Desmond]

<p>You continue to miss the point, Allen. It's not a question of need. Actually, I might find either her story or the story of how this photo came about to be very interesting. But, no, of course I don't NEED it. The NEED thing is an artificial limit you're imposing. Only you are talking about it. The rest of us are talking about text and titles accompanying photos and the role that can play.</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<blockquote>

<p>Do you really want to murder her for some belief, cause, or, whatever.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>It's interesting that even you chose to accompany your photo with this statement, which certainly puts a spin on the photo. I don't think you NEEDED to say this. I simply think you wanted to. I take it at face value and appreciate it as your accompaniment to your photo.</p>

<p>Only if I were a really weak character or easily-distracted viewer would what you said detract from the photo.</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>" But, no, of course I don't NEED it. The NEED thing is an artificial limit you're imposing. Only you are talking about it. The rest of us are talking about text and titles accompanying photos and the role that can play."</p>

<p>Sorry, Fred. I can't help but be naughty...is it six of the best or can I just do some lines? Is there not a strong connection between need and a want...are they not similar desires in many ways?</p>

<p>' The rest of us are talking about text and titles accompanying photos and the role that can play."</p>

<p>Really,Fred. I thought that was what I was talking about and the need for them.</p>

<p> </p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>Sorry, if i've upset you or anyone else.</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>I don't NEED it. The NEED</p>

<p>Okay, no need to shout.</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p>Allen, you haven't upset me and you have nothing to be sorry for.</p>

<p>I just think your views on this topic are narrow and too universal, as if this would apply to photographs as a whole rather than it being dependent on the photo and the accompanying title or words.</p>

<p>And, as I pointed out above, even you accompanied your photo by some verbalized thoughts, which don't in any way detract from the photo. And I don't think you did it out of NEED.</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p>I use caps for emphasis when I'm too lazy to hit the Italic button. I'm not shouting.</p>

[jonathancharlesphoto]

<p>Rather than getting too caught up with particular words, I think there i scommon ground: that photos (or other art works) <strong>can</strong> stand on their own but in some cases the background story adds a perspective which gives the image more meaning. My own view is that the more a photo depicts a real-life scene the more it benefits from the additional info but the more it's abstract or allegorical the less this matters and the <strong>lack</strong> of info is actually helpful as it lets the viewer's mind wander over different possibilities. Obviously it also depends on the viewer's preference and way of looking but if not wanted the information can be ignored.</p>

<p>I have been interested to hear the different views (and welcome more)...</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>" a perspective which gives the image more meaning"</p>

<p>Hmm, but doe not a powerful photo really need a perspective to give it more meaning? Are we not too far under the sway of prose..... to except a photo that is able to tell its own story without the paint by numbers scenerio.</p>

<p>Is it a lesser Art.</p>

<p>Does it need or want......</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<blockquote>

<p>Hmm, but doe [sic] not a powerful photo really need a perspective to give it more meaning?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yes, <em>in some cases</em> a powerful photo can gain a lot more meaning accompanied by prose. Consider a lot of documentary work, but many other photos as well <em>may</em> be made richer by accompaniment.</p>

<p>.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Are we not too far under the sway of prose</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I'm not. Are you?</p>

<p>.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>to except [sic] a photo that is able to tell its own story without the paint by numbers scenerio.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Perhaps a lot of the prose you read is of the "paint by numbers" sort. That's a shame. That's not my experience.</p>

<p>.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Is it a lesser Art.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>No.</p>

<p>.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Does it need or want......</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Sometimes it needs. Sometimes it wants. And sometimes that's just the way it is.</p>

<p> </p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>"Hmm, but doe [sic] not a powerful photo really need a perspective to give it more meaning?" Allen</p>

<p>"Yes, <em>in some cases</em> a powerful photo can gain a lot more meaning accompanied by prose. Consider a lot of documentary work, but many other photos as well <em>may</em> be made richer by accompaniment." All Fred.</p>

<p>　<br /> Documentry,Fred, maybe. But only maybe....the words, the words, oh, there's a photo....read the words... sort of forgot the photo...there's a thought.</p>

<p>　<br /> "Are we not too far under the sway of prose Allen<br /> <br /> I'm not. Are you?" Fred</p>

<p>　<br /> Open ended question...are you sure? Allen</p>

<p>　<br /> Perhaps a lot of the prose you read is of the "paint by numbers" sort. That's a shame. That's not my experience.</p>

<p>　<br /> But to be honest Fred you like the chat ...sort of important to you...from my experience with engaging with you...<br /> 　<br /> "Is it a lesser Art.<br /> No" Fred.<br /> 　<br /> Why?.<br /> 　<br /> "Sometimes it needs. Sometimes it wants. And sometimes that's just the way it is." Fred.</p>

<p>　<br /> 　<br /> Sort of agree; but bottom line if it can't stand alone...well, what is it.<br /> 　<br /> 　</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<blockquote>

<p>bottom line if it can't stand alone...well, what is it.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Of course, no one here said any photo "can't" stand alone. Again, that's simply your own bias speaking. What I would say is that if a photo "doesn't" stand alone, it's a photo accompanied by a verbal or written story or title, that's what it is. </p>

<p>Think of it like this. Is a photo only a photo if it's not matted and framed? What does it become when we add a mat and a frame, and maybe even some gallery lighting? If we add those things, does that mean the photo must not have measured up to begin with? Sometimes the frame is a complete distraction, sometimes a frame really solidifies and completes a photo. Hanging a photo on a wall can change it so much compared to how it looks when we see it on a monitor, for example. Text can do the very same thing. Or text can be a disaster.</p>

<p>I keep an open mind. And I like to play with photographs in many different ways.</p>