Best single landscape lens for a D800?

[studio460]

<p>Sorry, I didn't mean to sound condescending; I initially thought you didn't know. Oddly, it wasn't until the D800 was announced that I even considered buying a PC-E Nikkor. Now, I can't imagine shooting my wide-angle cityscapes and streetscapes without one.</p>

[scott_ferris]

<p>Robin,</p>

<p>Until very recently nobody would have been complacent enough to think they could take quality landscapes without movements. It is the recent introduction of high megapixel digital sensors that allow people to see their images at sizes they never print that makes everybody think they can shoot landscapes. </p>

<p>Tilt is not about getting the plane of focus where you want it as much as getting your lenses optimum aperture to cover your intended subject. If f8 gets me my equipments sharpest image, why would I use diffraction impaired f10, or f16? Why would I use hyper focal focusing, a technique that guarantees nothing is actually sharp? Why, if I am getting up at 2 in the morning to get to the perfect spot before dawn would I not want to realize the maximum potential of the capture technology I take?</p>

<p>What you say is as short sighted as saying, "I don't see the need for tripods, why do people get so excited about them?" Well, use one and see, it might open your eyes, it might not, but that doesn't mean others won't recognize the benefits, they are very real and not just for the limited reasons you think you know.</p>

[studio460]

<p>Certainly, shifting the plane of focus more easily permits you to use your lens' optimum aperture, a potentially critical consideration when shooting with a 36MP camera. Since most lens' sharpest aperture is only at f/5.6 or f/8, that's often not a small enough aperture to keep all desired elements in focus.</p>

[Mary Doo]

<p><< but I, personally, have only on a very few occasions wished I had one...bulky lens with knobs on it...>></p>

<p>... and more of a pain to use than some other lenses. It was always left behind after the must-have equipment have jam-packed my heavy bag - this "method" has become my test for "usability". For the little occasional advantage it has (yes, it was another one of those "compromises" one makes from time to time), I decided to sell mine and have not looked back.</p>

[scott_ferris]

<p>Mary,</p>

<p>I fully accept they are not for everybody, but if you have a high megapixel camera and want to realize anywhere close to its potential then you have to work for it. When I took the image above, I knew before I left my house what picture I wanted to take, I had one lens, one body, a cable release and a 15lb tripod.</p>

<p>As always, we make the choices on what compromises we want to make, I could have got a higher quality result using an 8x10 field camera, I could have made my trip much easier by using a P&S handheld. For me, and obviously that is very personal, the T/S lenses elevate the resultant quality to a high enough level to be worth it. Seeing as how the entire premise of the thread is a question on what is the best lens, or, what lens will get me the best result, for landscape images with a D800, there can be no argument that a T/S lens, with good technique, will maximise its potential.</p>

<p>Do they take time and skill to use? Sure, but when was quality landscape work an easy race. Does it have knobs on it? Yes, but so what, so does your camera, it is no more fiddly, bulky, complicated or involved to use than a good filter set. If you are not chasing your gears potential there is little benefit, if you are, T/S lenses will raise the quality of your result substantially.</p>

[Mary Doo]

<p><< <strong>Seeing as how the entire premise of the thread is a question on what is the best lens, or, what lens will get me the best result, for landscape images with a D800</strong>, there can be no argument that a T/S lens, with good technique, will maximise its potential. >></p>

<p>Agreed.</p>

 

[dcstep]

<p>Why aren't we talking about diffraction, given the small pixel size of the D800? I would think that a FF sensor with 21 or 22MP would be a better choice for landscape photography. Put a big ole 600mm f/4 super-tele on the D800 and shoot a frame filling bird wide open and the feather detail will knock you off your stool. OTOH, put a 17mm T/S lens on, put the rig on a tripod, stop down to f/22, lock the mirror up and remote release and the detail resolution will likely be dissapointing. I think it's the wrong body for that job.</p>

<p>See the diffraction limits of various sensor sizes and pixel densities at:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/diffraction-photography-2.htm">http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/diffraction-photography-2.htm</a></p>

<p>No lens is going to overcome the limits of diffraction caused by pixels that are too small.</p>

[scott_ferris]

<p>David,</p>

<p>I was.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p><em>"If f8 gets me my equipments sharpest image, why would I use diffraction impaired f10, or f16? Why would I use hyper focal focusing, a technique that guarantees nothing is actually sharp? "</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>Tilt lenses allow you to use your optimum aperture <strong>and</strong> get everything you want in focus, they don't overcome diffraction, they work around it.</p>

[dcstep]

<p>Scott said:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Tilt lenses allow you to use your optimum aperture <strong>and</strong> get everything you want in focus, they don't overcome diffraction, they work around it.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I've never worked with a TS. Can you get the flowers at your feet and the mountain two-miles away equally sharp?</p>

[scott_ferris]

<p>David,</p>

<p>Yes you can, as the image I posted above demonstrates, you can do that at any aperture from wide open to fully stopped down, but the "sweet spot", the best compromise between diffraction and lens aberrations, for small format lenses, is normally around f8.</p>

[eric friedemann]

<p>Scott, to generalize my experience with Nikon lenses, the sweet spot is usually found between two and three stops from maximum aperture. For example, my 28mm f/1.4 AFD lens seems to be sharpest between f/2.8 and f/4.0, while my 24-70mm f/2.8 AFSG lens seems to be sharpest between f/5.6 and f/8.0. </p>

[scott_ferris]

<p>Eric,</p>

<p>The Nikon 24 PC-E <a href="http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=632&Camera=614&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=3&LensComp=0&CameraComp=0&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=0">seems to be f8</a>. But then it is starting out at f3.5 so that is pretty close to your generalization of two stops down from wide open.</p>

[studio460]

<p>From the Nikon USA support site:</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p><em>Q: "Will the 24mm PC-E work with the new D800?" A: "Cannot be used with shifting or tilting." --Nikon Support Staff.</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>Source: <a href="http://answers.nikonusa.com/answers/7022/product/2168/nikon-pc-e-nikkor-24mm-f-3-5d-ed-questions-answers/questions.htm">http://answers.nikonusa.com/answers/7022/product/2168/nikon-pc-e-nikkor-24mm-f-3-5d-ed-questions-answers/questions.htm</a></p>

<p>What the heck?</p>

[scott_ferris]

<p>Wow!</p>

<p>That is a good reason to get a Canon ;-)</p>

[studio460]

<p>That really was a shocker. I was all set to buy a D800 and the 24mm PC-E--they seem like such a perfect match. What possible reason would not allow the use of tilt or shift, specifically on the D800? Mechanical clearance? How can this answer be correct? What the heck, Nikon?</p>

[studio460]

<p>Scott said:</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>That is a good reason to get a Canon</p>

</blockquote>

<p>For the serious landscape shooter, that's not actually that bad of a suggestion.</p>

[scott_ferris]

<p>Looking at <a href="http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=632&Camera=614&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=3&LensComp=486&CameraComp=453&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=3">this link,</a> the Nikon might be a little sharper in the center, they are the same on the sides but the Canon is much sharper in the corners.</p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>The comment on Nikon USA web site that the 24mm/f3.5 PC-E cannot be used with shifting or tilting on the D800 is almost certainly an error. I have that particular lens and all of its functionalities are useable on the D700. The D700's viewfinder can block one of the large knobs on the 24mm PC-E in one orientation, but you can rotate the lens by 180 degrees to get that knob out of the way and achieve exactly the same effect. Therefore, for all practical purposes, there is no limitation to use any capability of the 24mm PC-E on the D700.</p>

<p>The D800 is not available yet, but given how similar the D700 and D800 are in terms of size and shape, it makes absolutely no sense that the 24mm PC-E cannot shift or tilt on the D800. Therefore, whoever posted that answer either has no idea what they are talking about or they could be thinking about the D80 instead of the D800.</p>

<p>I have tried the 24mm PC-E on my D7000, which is a much smaller camera than the D700 and D800. In fact, the D7000 is similar in size as the D80 and D90. It took me over 5 minutes to figure out how to mount that lens onto the D7000 to begin with, let alone tilting and shifting. Since the D7000 (and D80) is so much smaller, the knobs on the 24mm PC-E get in the way all the time.</p>

[scott_ferris]

<p>I would think so too Shun. I suspect there is a memo that says "AE can't be used with tilt or shift" and half the sentence is on a different page, or it didn't get translated fully.</p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>There is an image of the 24mm PC-E mounted on a D800 on this web site: <a href="http://d800.org/nikon-d800-images/nikon-d800-with-pc-e-24mm-tilt-shift/">http://d800.org/nikon-d800-images/nikon-d800-with-pc-e-24mm-tilt-shift/</a><br>

It is clear that there is nothing that blocks that lens from tilting and shifting, at least to some degree.</p>

<p>There is also a discussion on DPReview that Nikon Europe confirms that the D800 supports all tilt-shift motions on all Nikon PC-E lenses: <a href="http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=40563571">http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=40563571</a></p>

<p>In any case, when the D800 is available, I will test this all out. Again, I have the 24mm PC-E lens.</p>

[scottelly]

<p>Robin, your work is beautiful. I have to hand it to the masters though (people like Joseph Holmes and Clyde Butcher). They shoot with large format cameras. I have a book by Jack Dykinga called Large Format Nature Photography. It seems to me that most of the great landscape photographers shoot with large format cameras. That may be because they started before high quality digital existed, but I believe that there are more reasons than that. I've seen Peter Lik and Art Wolfe shooting with medium format cameras. I've seen some amazing landscape photos that were shot with 35mm and other formats that did not have tilts or shifts. I still have a tendency to believe in large format. I rarely use my 4x5, but I know that when I do, I can make an incredible 800 megapixel scan from the negatives, which blows away the quality I could get with a digital camera, and that's on an old flat-bed scanner. In the many books I have on large format landscape photography, far more-advanced photographers than I state things like, "I tilted the lens forward and shifted it down for this shot." That makes me think that if I had the ability, and I could use tilt and shift, I would. When I don't have that ability I just make do. I don't want to make do. You don't win the Daytona 500 with a Honda Civic, because you can just make do. You use a real race car, and you might have a chance of qualifying . . . if you have what it takes and you have a crew behind you. I believe it is the same for photography, just as it is for movie making, building homes, and producing music. Sure, there are amateurs out there that make it happen on a shoestring budget, and they can sometimes do a better job than a whole team of experts with big money, but more often than not, it is the real pros that are using professional equipment that consistently get the shot (or win the race).</p>

<p>Scott . . . thank you for your explanation. Your vast knowledge is convincing, but I am not quite convinced that moving a lens just 1.5 degrees (even on a 1.6 or 1.7 crop digital camera) can move the plane of focus so far, even though your example seems to make it plain-as-day obvious that it has done so. I do not want to insinuate anything, so I will not say more about it. I will just admit my own incompetence. I will have to do my own research, I guess. Maybe I should find a PC or TS lens and camera combination to play with for a few hours. Unfortunately, I speak from a perspective of ignorance, since I have never actually used a TS or PC lens on a digital or 35mm (135 format) camera.</p>

[scott_ferris]

<p>Scott,</p>

<p>Thank you for your gracious reply, people looking for, and interested in finding, answers, are not ignorant. I would point you back to <a href="http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/using_tilt.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">this page</a>, he has a chart that shows tilt degrees for different focal lengths, from 17mm -180mm. Remember though, tilt is not sensor size related, a 90mm lens on a 135 format camera needs the same tilt as a 90mm on a 4x5, tilt is just a function of focal length. But the fov that a 90 gives you is obviously a wide angle on 4x5 whereas on 135 it isn't.</p>

<p>I did notice yet another typo in my earlier reply too.<br>

<em>"If you compare a 135 format 17mm image you need 1/5 the tilt of a 90mm on a 4x5, my 6˚ of tilt equals your <strong>18˚</strong> of tilt."</em><br>

Should read,<br>

<em>"If you compare a 135 format 17mm image you need 1/5 the tilt of a 90mm on a 4x5, my 6˚ of tilt equals your<strong> 30˚</strong> of tilt."</em><br>

<em><br /></em>Though obviously you are achieving different framing with the two cameras and lenses.</p>

<p>Hope this helps, Scott.</p>

[studio460]

<p>Nikkor 24mm PC-E apparently works with D800:</p>

<p>Thanks for clearing that up, Shun. Yes, from what I've read it appears to be an erroneous statement on the Nikon USA support site. It's presumed that the person posting was merely citing the 24mm PC-E's manual, regarding other functions which would be unavailable when the lens is tilted or shifted (unavailable, on any body).</p>

[michael_a._shapiro]

<p>Lilly is correct. The 21mm Zeiss is the sharpest least distorting wide angle for Nikon.</p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>I received photo.net's Nikon D800 test sample yesterday. I mounted my 24mm/f3.5 PC-E lens on it, and that combination works fine. Any restriction with that lens on the D800 is the same as that on the D700. That big knob closest to the lens mount is for the shift movement. As long as you rotate that knob to the down position instead of up, everything works fine and there is no restriction from using that lens on the D800. When that knob is in the up position, it will scratch the bottom of the viewfinder overhang. Since you can get exactly the same effect with that knob up or down, you can achieve all the effect you can get on the D800 (or D700). On a D3 family body, even that minor issue goes away, and I assume that is also true for the Nikon D4.</p><div></div>