Please help me make an upgrade decision

[misty_prochaska]

<p>I have a T1i, and I have been wanting to upgrade for quite some time to a full frame camera. I am just a hobbyist. I take a lot of macro photos, and then photos of my kids. I am really unhappy with the low-light, high ISO results of fast moving toddler shot inside my dark house with my Rebel. I have not much of an investment in lenses. I know upgrading right now is complicated by the possible release at some soonish point of an updated 5D. In the course of trying to make a decision, I purchased and returned a 7D (which I disliked), and rented a D7000 (loved the AF, amazing, clarity in good lighting conditions, but still a crop camera, so hard to justify selling all of my Canon gear to move to another crop). <br /> <br /> I told myself that I am not thinking about this any more, and I am making a decision today. My options are to...<br /> <br /> Just buy a 5D Mark II- I don't even care any more about paying full price this late in the product life cycle. I am just afraid of the AF problems. My T1i leaves a lot to be desired as far as AF, and I do toggle and select my AF point. Outer points are terrible. <br /> <br /> Buy a refurbished 60D through the Canon loyalty program- the only thing I might gain is better AF?<br /> <br /> Buy the D7000 and some fast wide primes (probably not going to be a popular option on the Canon forum, I know).<br /> <br /> Stop obsessing, and just keep my camera. I am just a hobbyist mom with a camera, so when I take a step back it all seems quite silly that I am this fixated on the upgrade, at such a bad time to upgrade. <br /> <br /> Tell me what to do! Be as harsh as you want. And I know the whole world is sick of the questions related to buying vs. waiting, etc. on both Canon and Nikon sides.</p>

[smooth_carrots]

<p>I bought the 5D2 as soon as it was released and I've loved every minute of owning it. My previous camera was a 350D (Rebel XT).</p>

<p>You are right to be concerned about the AF. The outer AF points on the 5D2 are a complete joke. They are so bad that I don't even consider using them any more. Probably no worse than your T1i but, for a relatively expensive full frame DSLR, simply not good enough.</p>

<p>Thankfully, the centre AF point is outstanding. 18 months ago I switched to back button focusing, centre AF point only and permanent AI servo mode. Now I do not miss the outer points. I can shoot anything I like including fast paced action with ease.</p>

<p>Other than the outer AF points, the only other thing I don't like about the 5D2 is the lack of proper weather sealing. I will never understand why Canon decided to weather seal large parts of this camera but then left other parts completely unprotected. It makes no sense. Twice my camera has seized up due to water entering through the joystick control. You've just got to tell yourself that the camera doesn't like rain, much like your T1i. To pretend it is weather sealed is a mistake.</p>

<p>Apart from that, the 5D2 is an amazing camera and I am glad I paid full retail price for it when it was released. It was worth it for the fun I've had with it for the last couple of years.</p>

[phule]

<p>[[i have a T1i, and I have been wanting to upgrade for quite some time to a full frame camera. I am just a hobbyist. I take a lot of macro photos, and then photos of my kids. I am really unhappy with the low-light, high ISO results of fast moving toddler shot inside my dark house with my Rebel.]]</p>

<p>With what lenses? Do you have an external flash? What are your print sizes from these photos?</p>

<p>[[My T1i leaves a lot to be desired as far as AF, and I do toggle and select my AF point]]</p>

<p>Have you tried sticking with just the center point? Are you using any f/2.8 or faster lenses?</p>

[misty_prochaska]

<p>I have an external flash (430 EXII). The two lenses I use 99% of the time are a 35mm F2, and the Tamron 60mm F2 macro.<br>

<br />I very rarely print. Very rarely. When I do print it is 4X6 or 5X7, although we have talked about eventually making some rather large prints for display in my husband's office.</p>

[derek_hofmann]

<p>Could you post a photo you took that shows how the T1i is not as good as a full frame DSLR would be?</p>

[acedigital]

<p>I would agree IF you don't have a flash, get a Canon 430Ex or 580 EX/EX II flash FIRST and see if your indoor results don't improve a lot. You can use a flash with whatever camera you decide to upgrade to.<br>

Just curious, what didn't you like about the 7D? The 60D gets mixed results so I would steer away from that one.</p>

[acedigital]

<p>I would agree IF you don't have a flash, get a Canon 430Ex or 580 EX/EX II flash FIRST and see if your indoor results don't improve a lot. You can use a flash with whatever camera you decide to upgrade to.<br>

Just curious, what didn't you like about the 7D? The 60D gets mixed results so I would steer away from that one.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Buy a D7000 or used D700 and fast primes. I don't think you'll be happy with 5DII autofocus. Plus--don't underexpose (makes noise worse), and learn more about what autofocusing can and can't do. No camera system is going to be able to deliver total focus accuracy in dim light using wide open apertures, with fast moving toddlers.</p>

<p>I agree that perhaps getting and learning how to use an external flash might help your situation enough.</p>

[misty_prochaska]

<p>I do have a flash. And it really helps. It is a necessity indoors at this point.<br>

As far as the 7D- I guess I didn't see the point of the larger heavier body when I got no improvement in IQ or improvement at high ISO, or any of the other improvements FF offers (DOF, and no crop factor- my house is tiny, my 35mm on a FF is pretty much perfect as far as focal length). I also think that the AF is overly complicated for the results (as compared to what i experienced when I rented the D7000).<br>

As far as posting a picture, I will look for something that illustrates the problem and see if I can post, although I think you can imagine what a photo of a toddler taken by a Rebel at 3200 ISO would look like.</p>

[Marcus Ian]

<p>A 60D isn't going to give you any better AF than a 5D2, and I wouldn't expect much improvement over your Rebel. The 7D's is vastly better than both (though it takes a bit of getting used to). I'm not sure why you'd even consider the 60D frankly.</p>

<p>As far as FF vs. crop? you view on screen, and occasionally print 4x6 & 5x7. You won't see a tangible benefit from going to a FF camera.</p>

<p>To be honest, if you loved the D7000, get one. you don't exactly have a stable full of glass, so it's not a real compelling reason to stick with a system that limits your capabilities. In the end, a D7000 w/ a couple of fast primes that you love to use, and produces useable results is better *for you* than a 5D2 (or 60D, or 7D, or even a 1D(?)) that you are fighting with constantly to get unsatisfactory imagery from. It's about <em>your</em> satisfaction, and <em>your</em> enjoyment. Go w/ a system that makes you happy.</p>

[scott_ferris]

<p>You have a hankering after a 5D MkII, easiest thing is to rent one for a weekend then all your specific doubts will be answered either for or against.</p>

[charles_clark1]

<p>I don't understand the perceived need for full frame. Unless you are enlarging to huge size, I don't understand the need. Sure, you get better low light performance. Buy a good flash and learn to use it. If you are wanting to take the photos in your dark house, a flash will help a lot. (BTW, I am not recommending that you point the flash at your child. Those photos always look bad. Bounce, diffuse, use the light.)<br>

I have a 5D and a 7D. The 7D beats the low light focusing capability hands down. Also, the 7D can trigger an off-camera flash.<br>

Use your huge savings you reap in not buying the newest 5D Mark x to buy an 85mm f1.8 and a 50mm 1.4. </p>

[smooth_carrots]

<p>I very rarely print. Let's be brutally honest, how many of us do these days? However, if photography is your hobby, there's no better feeling than pixel peeping a 5D2 image. Not only that, you can crop away 80% of the frame and still print a nice 10x8 if you want. No need for expensive telephotos anymore.</p>

[jaydesi]

<p>With very high ISO, the trick is to have decent noise reduction software and get the exposure correct. If you have to raise the exposure in post, the noise will become much worse. At reasonable ISO, if you get the exposure right, you won't need noise reduction software at all.</p>

<p>That said, I'm not sure why you're struggling with high ISO if you have an external flash. If you're using Tv or Av, your camera is going to use the flash as fill, not as your primary light source, which could be your problem. You have to set it to M and pick your shutter/aperture combo. Also, if you bounce the flash and/or use a GOOD diffuser, you'll get more pleasing lighting than if you're just blasting your subject directly with the flash. You can easily get away with f/8 and 1/125-1/250 sec exposures at ISO 200 indoors, with minimal noise, unless you're trying to shoot across a large room. Consider doing some research into how to use your flash more effectively, since that will be your least expensive upgrade option, as you're upgrading your knowledge, and is certainly cheaper than a 5DMkII.</p>

[misty_prochaska]

<p>Thanks so much to everyone for your thoughtful responses. I do shoot in manual mode when I use my flash, and I do bounce it, and the results are ok. I have LR3, which has outstanding noise reduction capabilities. There are a lot of other reasons I want to move to FF- DOF, IQ, being able to use natural light rather than flash, and the difference in focal length (which yes, I know, can be addressed by using different lenses, obviously). It is just hard to purchase those wider lenses for a crop body knowing I want to move to FF eventually. There is still so much I have to learn about photography, and looking at all of the options, I should probably just sit tight where I am and work with the gear that I have.<br>

At least at this time, I know that upgrading and staying with Canon is NOT the right answer- due to just getting to the point of what I would call "decision fatigue", I almost just ordered a 5D Mark II before I posted here. All of the information provided has for sure made me feel like that would not have been a good decision. My husband would like me to just order a D700 and get it all over with. I would like to order a D7000, a 35 1.4, 105 macro, and flash, and then later get a D700 when the D800 comes out and prices go down. And after all of that, I end back up at the fact that I am just a mom with a camera, this is just a hobby for me, and that I should just work with what I have. :) All of this would be easier if Canon would do something about the autofocus issue. I know some say it is fine, but for me, even though I prefer Canon "colors", the autofocus is really lacking.<br>

So thanks again for all the input! Even though I have decided to not upgrade at this point, thank goodness I have come to a decision.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Your reasons for moving to full frame--DOF, IQ I understand, although the latter has sparked many a heated discussion. Being able to use natural light rather than flash is not a reason to go full frame. Most of the people who question your going to full frame probably concluded the same thing I did--you are pinning too much advantage to full frame, and will be disappointed in the real difference, which <strong>is</strong> real (the IQ part--the DOF part is definitely real), but not as big as most people think.</p>

<p>I am hoping Canon will have addressed the focus issue with the 5D III, considering it has new focusing system in the D1X. If you can't wait that long to find out, then I repeat my suggestion to get a used D700.</p>

<p>In the meantime, try working within the ISO you know you like on the Rebel, and I repeat--don't underexpose. You will find that correct exposure on the Rebel at ISO 1600 or 3200 should be fine. Underexposure will make any noise worse. If you get a D700 and underexpose, even at the good high ISOs the D700 is known for--you are going to get increased noise.</p>

<p>I also repeat not to expect miracles from autofocus systems, in dim light--whether Canon or Nikon, and with wide open apertures. You should also examine whether you are pixel peeping too much. Noise is much less noticeable in prints. If you don't print anything and look at everything on a monitor, then that is another story. Even so, I don't find much lacking in my cropped sensor images, given the proper post processing. I use both kinds of cameras shooting weddings, so there are many situations involving dim lighting.</p>

<p>If you stay with Canon for a while, may I suggest you get a 50mm f1.4. That is a whole stop wider than f2. Also try the Sigma 24mm f1.8 (2/3 stop wider). I have that lens. It is decent and would be equivalent to a 35mm full frame.</p>

<p>Oh--and investigate focusing methods. I would probably be experimenting with center focus point, AI Servo with back focus button first. Or using the flash with the focus assist enabled but no flash, with One Shot. No AI Focus at all.</p>

[dennisgg]

<p>I understand you are looking at a full frame, they do handle high ISO nicely and also have shallower depth of field. I think you might want to look at the Canon 7D - very good at high ISO, excellent AF, fast performance, video, etc. Yes, it is heavier (the 5D is not lightweight nor are the Nikon full frame bodies either) but it feels real good in the hands, more rugged, etc. You would be able to use your lenses you have. I have a 7D and thought I wanted an older 5D to go with it, but I don't see a need. I love the 7D. Have you tried one? </p>

[hjoseph7]

<p>If I was just a hobbyist I would upgrade to the 50D, or maybe a refurbished 5D Mk I. That would save me enough money to get 1 or 2 good lenses. But if you got the money to spare, the 5D Mk II is as good a full frame camera as you are going to get for over 2 grand. </p>

[sarah_fox]

<p>Misty, in the late 1950's, my mom's Argus C3 was stolen from her filing cabinet at work. She had been passionate about photography as her new hobby and was devastated at the loss. When she considered her replacement options, what she really hungered for was a Leica IIIf. That was of course a very expensive, professional camera, but she wanted it badly. So she bought it. Did she "need" it? Probably not. But I can tell you it was truly a joy to her to own and use that camera for decades to follow. Along the way, I was born, and she passed her love of photography to me. I still have her IIIf, and its sentimental value is priceless. Sometimes the extravagance is worth it, if you have the money to make it happen. ;-)</p>

[andrewg_ny]

<blockquote>

<p><em>"You have a hankering after a 5D MkII, easiest thing is to rent one for a weekend then all your specific doubts will be answered either for or against."</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>This is probably the soundest advice I've read in this thread. If you don't follow this, you're just going to second-guess your decision. If the 5D MkII doesn't feel like the answer, get the D7000 and know you got what works best <em>for you</em>. I imagine you can sell your used Canon gear (like your accessory flash unit) and buy competitive used Nikon gear without huge loss.</p>

[plangereis]

<p>I have the 5D mk I and love it. I sold my 40D to get this, which I know to many seems like a step backward (older processor etc), but the image quality seems more film-like than the 40D. The 5D body coupled with the 17-40, 70-200 f4 IS, and three primes (50 1.8 mk I; 85 1.8, and 100 2.8 macro USM) provide me with coverage for everything I need. I am mainly into portrait work and landscapes so a new auto-focus system is not important to me. I bought my body used for just over a grand, which left money for lenses.</p><div></div>

[phule]

<p>Misty,</p>

<p>Have you explored disabling the 430EX II flash but keeping it on camera for the purpose of using the AF-Assist built into the flash unit? This option is available in the Flash Control menu screen.</p>

[phule]

<p>Erp! I see that Nadine already suggested that. Sorry.</p>

[model mayhem gallery]

<p>I own and shoot with a Canon 5D Mark II and it does not focus an better than my old Canon 30D which is still a very good camera. When using the same lens on both I sometimes have a hard time telling the difference in images taken with both camera's. I use several fast primes the 28 1.8, 50, 1.8 and 85 1.2L. These lenses are extremely hard to I almost always use manual focus when using fast primes wide open as the DOP is so narrow you have to choose manually what you are focusing on.<br>

If you are an auto-focus person and choose not to switch to manual focus which in my opinion gives you much more precise shots then I would recommend more light. I.E. strobes with modeling lights. I really like my Alien Bees AB 800's.<br>

It is always technique over technology.</p>