Please advise on selection ND Grad filters for MF landscape.

[roman_p]

<p>Hi everyone!</p>

<p>I'm new to MF photography and just lately accrued my Contax 645 with nice set of Zeiss glasses. I do a lot of landscapes with 35mm cameras and have a set of ND grad filters. But they are all P-size. Now with MF camera I guess I need to switch to ND grad filters 4x4 or 4x6 size. Searching for those filters I found that there two major providers available: Lee and Hitech. Both of them have 4x4 size holders and both of them have their own adapter rings. I need to get some advice from MF photographers what preferences they have to select ND grad filters. Are the Lee and Hitech holders/adapter rings interchangeable? I’m going to use Velvia 50/100 film with 35mm and 45mm Zeiss Distagons. Thanks.</p>

[adrian_wilson9]

<p>Hi Roman,<br>

The adapter rings for virtually all systems are non standard, i.e. non are interchangable. Perhaps you might consider Cokin Z-pro in your calculations, all systems of this size are expensive, however you might just be able to get away with the Cokin P size on your 45mm lens, and they would most certainly be usable for longer focal lengths. As you are aware Grads come in different grades Hard Soft etc plus the densities all make for quite a huge combination, a few years back Hitech were generally considered cheap but now seem to have vanished, if you really want to scrape the bottom of the barrel then you could try eBay and sellers in Hong Kong and China, quite often they can supply when others cannot.</p>

<p>Good Luck,<br>

Adrian.<br>

<b>Signature URL removed. Not allowed per photo.net guidelines.</b></p>

[ondebanks]

<blockquote>

<p>But they are all P-size. Now with MF camera I guess I need to switch to ND grad filters 4x4 or 4x6 size.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Not necessarily. I use P size with MF cameras from 645 up to 6x9, and some folks use them on 4x5 large format lenses too. The format size is not the decisive factor - the lens angle of view and front element size are what matters. I'd suggest you try using what you have, and see if it causes any vignetting, before making any further decisions on what you need.</p>

[adrian_wilson9]

<p>Hi Roman,<br>

Have just checked and Teamwork Photo and Formatt filters still stock Hitect at reasonable prices.<br>

Cheers,<br>

Adrian.</p>

<p><strong>P.S. It's your filter holder that will be the main cause of vignetting, as Cokin P size are cheap do consider canabalising a holder down to a single slot to help avoid the problem.</strong></p>

[roman_p]

<p>Thanks for your idea guys. I’ve just mounted my P size holder on 45mm Distagon and didin’t see any vignetting at f22 even with the holder placed at 45 deg. Wonderful, at least I have something to start with. But with 35mm Distagon I guess is not going to be that easy. It has 95mm thread size. I still have to find something.</p>

<p>Adrian, what is Teamwork Photo? Never heard about this retailer. I’ll try to search Google.<br>

And about your idea of “canabalising a holder”. Thanks for advice. It’s nice expression. Six years ago when I purchased Cokin regular holder (3 slots) I milled off one slot to avoid vignetting on my 20mm Nikkor. We call it “customization”. No matter how you call it, it’s a good idea.</p>

<p>My set of P size filters includes 2 from Singh Ray, 2 from Lee and 2 Hitech. Yes, Hitechs are cheap but they are not absolutely neutral. The dark part of filter has some sort of magenta cast. I’m just wondering if the 4x5 Hitech filters are same or better. At least they are not cheap anymore.</p>

[sfcole]

<p>Hitech filters have often been recommended as a better alternative to Cokin. I have both, and I would not recommend Hitechs. <br>

•Mine have obvious lack of flatness<br>

•The corners are trimmed at 45º, making them harder to grasp<br>

•They come with crappy soft plastic cases<br>

•Their color cast is worse than the Cokins</p>

 

[adrian_wilson9]

<p>Hi Roman,<br>

The link to Formatt filters > <br>

http://www.formatt.co.uk/stills-filters/filters/stills-filters.aspx<br>

Link to Teamwork Digital Ltd > <br>

http://teamworkphoto.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1047_78&zenid=r8ovnt4f75q5shpn5uugcgjre3<br>

Hitech will supply a 95mm adapter ring but you may be down to a single slot and you may wish to remove the outer 105mm ring on the holder. Cokin X-pro will do the job, and the colour cast is not to bad, but expensive. Final solution is to consider a screw in Grad if possible at 95mm I know for certain that they are available up to 77mm.<br>

Colour cast is the plague of ND's, I have just invested in a LCW Fader, it's not arrived as yet but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it's going to work, well it was either that or a set of Tiffen ND's.</p>

<p>The bells are ringing ! just remembered a dodge I read about from a chap Lee Frost, he recommended getting a 95mm adapter ring and some blu' tac' and after fitting the ring to the lens just dobbing the filter onto the adapter ring with Blu' Tac' he claimed you could get away with anything using that method, worth a try and could save yourself a few bob in the process. I believe there are some cheap adapter rings on ebay for just over a tenner.<br>

Good Luck,<br>

Cheers,<br>

Adrian.</p>

[adamjohnson]

<p>Singh-Ray, Lee, and Hitech are all quality filters. Your P-Series filters and holder will work as long as you don't have to use an additional filter, like an 81A warming filter. I used my P-Series filter with my 35mm & 45mm Mamiya M645 lenses and only had vignetting when I used a screw-on filter in conjuction.<br /><br />When I moved onto 6x7 I began using a Lee Foundation System. But I still carried my P-Series Singh-Ray filters and, out of necessity, discovered they work just as well handheld. Filter holders are a convenience, but they are not very necessary, even on long exposures. I have plenty of fine images that were captured while holding the filter in front of the lens.<br /><br />I like having a filter holder. But I've also found that if I need to set up quickly, they are not necessary. The photo below was captured while holding the filter in front of the lens. I'd say just use what you have and not worry too much about the holder. God gave us thumbs for a reason.<br /><br /><em>Pentax 67<br />Pentax 67 SMC 200mm Lens<br />Hitech 2-Stop Hard GND<br />8 Seconds @ f/5.6</em><br /><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4148/4991991867_6f07364a9e_z.jpg" alt="" width="640" height="506" /></p>

[david_henderson]

<p>A few points</p>

<ul>

<li> I think you might find it difficult to use Lee Filters with Hitech holders because Lee filters are half a mm thicker. That should mean that movement in the mount should be stickier.</li>

<li>Colour cast seems to vary with price. Many Cokin users seem to say they get one, and of course they don't claim "nd" but graduated grey. Hitech are the next cheapest and I've used their filters for ten years or more. I'd say that between a third and a half of the filters I've bought from them have a colour cast that is obvious on a white background. I buy from the factory in Wales, and send them back for replacement if they're not right. Lee have the same problem but to a lesser degree I think. In fact the production process for Lee and HiTech is very similar since they share an origin in Kodak. Singh Ray, who use the same material as the others seem to attract the fewest comments for non neutrality. Having spoken to Formatt (HiTech) at length on this issue I believe all these manufacturers have the ability to measure the neutrality of their filters and to make sure that what they ship are satisfactory. The fact that they do ship poor stuff is almost certainly a function of setting tolerances too wide to avoid waste. Personally I wouldn't want to buy HiTech from a dealer since easy exchange from the factory is an important part of the product as far as I'm concerned.</li>

<li>Teamwork are a pro dealer in London. I have found them arrogant and unhelpful, though maybe they might be less so now with the shrinkage of photography based businesses nearby. </li>

<li>I would always use a holder if I can. Of course if you're handholding you pretty much have to use a holder, which means I have to own a holder as a small proportion of my work is hand-held. If I have to own a holder I may as well use it all the time rather than use Blu-Tac, which works in isolation. </li>

<li>Its clearly worthwhile to consider using existing P series filters. But you really need to try taking actual shots with the holder/filter in place and you might get a different answer on vignetting.</li>

<li>Others may have more direct experience, but there has to be a chance that a 100mm holder will cause vignetting with a wide lens with 95mm thread. Maybe your real choice here for your widest lenss lies between a bigger system altogether ( expensive, harder to find) and the Blu-Tac route. </li>

</ul>

<p>So for me, if the P filters worked ok for the 45mm lens- which includes being long enough to facilitate correct positioning with the Contax on its side- I wouldn't buy a whole new set for the wider lens alone. If the P filters don't work on the 45mm lens after all, then I'd buy new grads and holder. of the right size to fit the 35mm lens- which I can't tell from here. </p>

[adrian_wilson9]

<p>I think Mr Lee Frost may be offended by the Blu Tac remarks David made, ignore that, it's your pocket that counts and if a Professional Photographer advises a certain work round you are gaining the benefit of years of experience, and if it saves money for other items of equipment then so much the better, nothing is perfect in this world and that includes ND Grads whichever way up you like them. ( Gets more and more crazy every day ). If you can achieve the desired effect on your image whatever filter or technique you elect to employ then you have won the day.<br>

Cheers,<br>

Adrian.</p>

[bob_cook]

<p>I have the hard and soft two-stop grad filters from Singh Ray that I use in a modified Cokin holder with the front slot ground off. Great product. Are they still in business?</p>

[david_henderson]

<p>Adrian Wilson. I know Lee well enough to know that he's a grown-up and can appreciate the fact that not everyone will want to do things exactly how he does. I don't think that he- or for that matter you- should be offended by anything in my response. I am also a professional photographer with years of experience of using grads. </p>

[adrian_wilson9]

<p>David,<br>

Please lets get this right, first of all there is no problem whatsoever with using Lee filters in a Hitech holder, the thickness of Lee filters is irrelevant, I have a pouch full of Lee filters and a couple of Hitech holders so I'm speaking from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.<br>

You have sought to dismiss the Blu Tac approach twice in your submission, which is wrong, how can you judge Roman's budget to advise him that it is not worth bothering with and that you certainly would not go down that route.<br>

How would Roman feel if he missed an award winning picture because he felt he could not afford the necessary kit when he could no doubt afford a cheap adapter ring and a piece of Blu Tac out of the office drawer, he may well then win the day with his existing equipment. </p>

<p>Adrian Wilson.</p>

[philip_wilson]

<p>I use a mix of Cokin and Lee but I find that the Cokin Z pro holder is very good if you do decide to move to the larger size filters. The Z series holder and adaptor rings are much more expensive than the P series but the build quality is much better and you can adjust the holder to the number of slots you need (it is a bolt together kit). I find that I need to go to a filter size bigger than a P series only on my Fuji GX680 where the standard lens filter diameters are 82mm and 95mm. On my Mamiya 645 I can use P series quite happily - even on the 35mm lens. Interestingly I have to use the larger filters on my Canon EF 16-35 F2.8 II lens to acid vignetting.</p>

[roman_p]

<p>Okay guys I really appreciate all your opinions. Thanks everyone.</p>

<p>Adrian: thanks for the idea of using Blu-Tacs. I recalled that I used it at early stage of my landscaping. I read about it somewhere. May be from the Lee Frost’s “The guide to Night & Low light Photography”. I have this book. Or may be from Tim Fitzharris. I guess he uses similar techniques. Nevertheless it’s a good idea when you don’t have other options. But honestly with all respect to your opinion I don’t see anything offensive in David’s comments. He just suggested using a holder whenever is possible as a better option. Actually I agree with it. However it might happen that I end up using BluTacs on my 35mm if all other options will fail. But according to Adam and Phillip it might work. Will see… I have enough budget to accrue Lee or Hitech holders and a couple 4x6 filters. If it won’t work I always have a chance to return it. The problem is that that Lee holder seems almost impossible to find on N. America continent (I’m in USA).</p>

<p>Also Adrian, I didn’t really get what you mean saying “…there is no problem whatsoever with using Lee filters in a Hitech holder…”. Form my experience of using Psize holders the Lee filter (2mm THK) don’t fit to Hitech holder. I had to “cannibalize” Hitech holder with a file to open up the slots slightly to fit Lee filter. Please clarify your point.</p>

<p>Unfortunately I don’t have such luxury to order Hitech filters from the factory in Wales since I’m in USA. The shipping back and forth will be costly. And here in USA Hitech 4x6 filters are not cheaper than Lee. I’ll try to stick with Lee since it seems they have more consistent quality or accrue a couple Singh Ray’s. They start making 4x6 filters as well. Also I heard that Cokin is gone either went out of business or closed Z size filters production. But not 100% sure about these rumors.</p>

[adrian_wilson9]

<p>Hi Roman,<br>

Re the Blu Tac, I read about it in Lee Frosts book " Panoramic Photography " However as a Professional myself I would be offended if someone knocked or dismissed a practical idea I had just because it was not purchased in a Camera Store or had a well respected name and a reputation for being expensive. A lot of Photographers spend most of their lives like that, and if it's not in the shop it's not worth knowing about. I tend to spend most of my time fitting square pegs into round holes and succeeding. So yes if I give someone the benefit of my experience and it is regarded as valuable advice and someone comes along and dismisses it then I would take offense, not a lot, but I would take offense.<br>

Re The Hitech holders with Lee filters I was reffering to the Hitech 100 system, as I assumed that is what we were talking about with your 35mm lens as an 85mm system would present problems.<br>

Re Teamwork Digital, I have done business with Teamwork on several occasions and always found them to be polite and businesslike and I'm surprised by the comments made about them.<br>

Apart from eBay perhaps you might try www.ffordes.com they have a fair stock of filters etc, but you need to keep looking on a regular basis.<br>

Trust somewhere along the line this has been helpful.<br>

Cheers,<br>

Adrian.</p>

[roman_p]

<p>Yes Andrian, it’s been very helpful. I’ve learnt that the adapter rings are not interchangeable across the different brands (100mm) and the Lee filters will fit Hitech holder despite they are thicker. It’s possible to use ND grad filters with a holder on 35mm lens without getting the vignetting. And also there’s the BluTac option for a case of emergency. Also I can use all my P-size filters with all MF lenses except 35mm which means I don’t need to buy whole new set of 100mm Grad filters. More or less I understand what I really need to accomplish my ND Grad filters set up.<br>

Thanks for the “Teamwork”. I’ve just order the Lee Foundation kit from them. £48+£15.00 shipping to USA. Well, I guess I have no choice.</p>

<p>Thanks for the interesting discussion.</p>

[adrian_wilson9]

<p>Hi Roman,<br>

Pleased to hear we have a constructive outcome, Good Luck for the future.</p>

<p>Cheers,<br>

Adrian.</p>

[adrian_wilson9]

<p>Just a follow up response to this,<br>

I have purchased an LCW ND filter ( £100.00 = $160.00 ) and am taking it up to Yorkshire for the Clubs annual holiday, I wanted to try some grads combined with this filter, it's a rotating mount and anyone that's been around filters for a while will know that any weight placed on a rotating mount is soon going to be dismounted very quickly, with your filter in two pieces or more. I thought of placing a Cokin X-pro 82mm adapter ring on the front with Blu Tac to secure the grad would be the ideal answer as I could also find myself working with an Ultra Wide angle lens as well ( Yes I am aware of the problems of UWA lenses with Faders ). Just for reference purposes my Hitech 100mm holder is a three slot and there is no way I'm going to canabalise that. The 82mm adapter ring was already to hand, and once this work is complete it may possibly not be repeated for another year, the Blu Tac wins the day and cost me a total of £1.19p on eBay, so please think first before you knock anything, just because it's not straight out of a fancy camera shop doesn't mean it's not worth knowing about.<br>

Cheers,<br>

Adrian.</p>