Which 35mm for Art School?

[andrewg_ny]

<p>I like Pentax KX or MX for this purpose. One small drawback vs. the Nikon (particularly the FM2n) is sync speed--these cameras have horizontally-travelling cloth shutters (like many of the Minoltas of the era) so their X-sync speed is limited to 1/60. I imagine a Pentax kit will be a little cheaper than the Nikon kit and in the case of the MX, more compact as well if that matters.</p>

<p>Both are manual mechanical bodies (battery only for lightmeter) with DoF preview, top shutter 1/1000 and X-sync 1/60. Both offer the judas window to optically see the lens aperture setting in the viewfinder. They both work fine with cheap modern batteries.</p>

<ul>

<li>MX is more compact with a bigger viewfinder, and uses 5 LEDs to indicate over/under exposure in the viewfinder. Meter electronics are a little more modern, possibly more robust?</li>

<li>KX is a little larger (but still maybe slightly smaller than an FM-series?) and offers a nice analog matched needle shutter/meter indicator in the viewfinder. It also offers mirror lockup. Electronics are a little older but do offer settings for a wider ISO range.</li>

</ul>

<p>The 50/1.4 or 1.7 or 1.8 optics from all the major manufacturers are quite good and if you have a preference between them this is something you'd probably need to figure out for yourself rather than hearing a recommendation here.</p>

<p> </p>

[indraneel]

<p>Faster shutter speeds sometimes help with faster film. Also, the topmost shutter speed is often said to be not as accurate as the lower speeds. I am biased towards the FM2n but whatever you get, make sure it's been cared for and recently checked (shutter timings etc). I've seen a battery door fall apart on the F100 and the rewind knob come off a FM2n (screwed it back easily). You might also have to spend for a handheld lightmeter.</p>

<p>I'm guessing with a low budget and desire to use a 50mm, DSLRs (including the D700) are out of question... but are only film cameras acceptable in art schools?</p>

[SCL]

<p>You asked about Nikon vs Canon FD. Owning both, I would tell you that they are excellent, but, I would strongly advise you to go with Nikon for one primary reason....the older lenses will work on most modern Nikon bodies, whereas the FD lenses won't (without serious degradation or only at macro ranges). I'll also second the use of (some) Nikon Series E lenses. In over 40 years of shooting, I hadn't used them until 3 years ago...now they spend a lot of time on my film and digital Nikons - I really like the compact sizes of the 50 & 100mm ones. Good luck in school. But, before committing to a specific camera, do check with your school to see if they have any specific criteria for the camera you are expected to use.</p>

[JDMvW]

<p>Doesn't the school or your teachers have some recommendations here?</p>

<p>If they want you to use film for starters, surely there are</p>

<ol>

<li>lots of students there with film cameras from last year, or whenever who are looking to sell. </li>

<li>some cameras that "all" the students are using, so you will be using the same thing.</li>

</ol>

<p>I mean, if you show up with an Exakta VXIIa, you're definitely in "film" but may turn out to be the odd man out. ;)</p>

<p>As already suggested, why get a Nikon if you have a Canon EOS digital camera? An older EOS film body can be used fully manually for most models and any lenses you get for it will work on your digital camera too.</p>

[CoryAmmerman]

<p>Having purchased camera gear from both KEH and Ebay, I'd definitely recommend KEH first. They have a 30 day return policy on all their goods, and, although I've never had to use it personally, I understand that it's a pretty liberal policy. Also, I wouldn't hesitate to buy anything in "bargain" condition. Everything I've bought from them has been either "bargain" or "As-Is." You might get an item that might have a few cosmetic blemishes here or there, but everything will work as it's supposed to.</p>

<p>I'm firmly entrenched in the Nikon camp. Aside from the other models already mentioned before, I'd also look at the Nikkormat series from Nikon. They were the "budget" line from Nikon in the 60's and 70's, but still very dependable cameras today. All metal construction and fully mechanical. The FTn uses the old style mercury battery to run only the meter, but you can use hearing aid batteries instead. The FT2 and FT3 use modern batteries. All of them can use non-AI lenses that can usually picked up for next to nothing.</p>

<p>Here's a shot of a few of my purchases from KEH. Everything in the shot was "bargain" grade except for the Nikomat (same as Nikkormat, just not originally sold in America) which was "as-is" because it needed new light seals which cost me an additional $8.</p>

<p>N2000- $15<br /> Nikomat FTn- $9<br /> 43-86 AI w/hood- $39<br /> 50/2 non-AI- $23</p><div></div>

[craig_shearman1]

<p>Welcome to Washington. I work just off the mall. Be sure to check out Penn Camera at E and 9th NW. They're the pro shop for photography here in town. Nice selection of used gear and rental in addition to new stuff. My recommendation is if you already hae Canon digital, then you stick with Canon for film as well. That way you just swap bodies but can still use all your existing lenses. You mentioned selling your 5D. Not sure if that means you want to get out of digital altogether, but if that's what you're saying I would advise against it. Fine art is its own rarefied world and you can use anything from a Holga to a Deardorff as long as the prints sell. But the rest of ways you can make a living as a photographer -- news, PR, events, weddings, commercial, advertising, etc. etc., -- have gone almost completely digital. If you are going to school hoping to make a living as a photographer, you need to know digital. And even if you're going to do fine art, remember it's about the art, not what kind of paint brush you use to create it.</p>

[mark_ritz]

<p>Congrads, that's a nice school and right next to the capitol and mall. Not too bad of a hike from a metro stop either. My wife's considering it for a MFA down the road.<br>

First suggestion, the standard that no one has mentioned: Pentax K1000. defacto standard for student camera ;) . I think the Ricoh KR-5 is about the same camera. Theres a number of other K mount cameras you could pick - from basic to advanced. Vivatar still makes a K mount full manual camera - V3800, $200 everywhere. Or about $180 more than one of the many, many, many similar K mount cameras ;) . Pentax made/makes adapters so you can use Pentax 645, 6x7, Mamiya M645 and some other lenses on K mount bodies too. Good for next year when you pick up a MF set, you could start buying lenses right away instead of K mounts (besides the 50)<br>

#2 - any of the SRT Minoltas. I really prefer the needle and target meter on that vs. the later LED meter (like on the X series cameras)<br>

#3 - Nikon FM or FE or their derivatives (FE2, FM2, etc). Very good cameras, can be very cheap. I got a FE with a 28/2.8 for free.<br>

#4 - Nikon F3 or F4. Much more expensive, much more feature-full than the other suggestions. Great, great cameras though. But if you plan on only shooting 35mm for a year, probably a waste. Although, after you shoot with them, you might want to stick with the format :D<br>

I don't know much about Canons, but the AE-1 is usually recommended.</p>

 

[john_c16]

<p>I use both Minolta and Nikon but I started with Rokkor stuff and continue to build it. I love to use my Minolta gear. Here's a list for ya from KEH...</p>

 

<ul>

<li>$43 BGN SRT 202 http://www.keh.com/camera/Minolta-Manual-Focus-Camera-Bodies/1/sku-MI020000335000?r=FE</li>

<li>$27 45mm f/2 - one of my favorite minimalist lenses. http://www.keh.com/camera/Minolta-Manual-Focus-Fixed-Focal-Length-Lenses/1/sku-MI060105000140?r=FE</li>

<li>Or $33 50mm f/1.7 - good old standard. http://www.keh.com/camera/Minolta-Manual-Focus-Fixed-Focal-Length-Lenses/1/sku-MI060090353200?r=FE</li>

<li>$39 135mm f/2.8 Tele-Rokkor. http://www.keh.com/camera/Minolta-Manual-Focus-Fixed-Focal-Length-Lenses/1/sku-MI060090315690?r=FE</li>

<li>$33 28mm f/2.8 - last but not least. Nice lens. http://www.keh.com/camera/Minolta-Manual-Focus-Fixed-Focal-Length-Lenses/1/sku-MI06009000017N?r=FE</li>

</ul>

<p>There you have it - for as little as $142 you could have a body and 3 lens set. You could even step up the lenses if you only wanted 1 or 4 with the 50mm 1.4 or the 58mm 1.4(fantastic lens) and the 35mm 1.8.</p>

 

[rick_coulby2]

<p>Thanks for all the responses guys! I can already tell this forum is great. I was kind of just blowing smoke talking about selling my 5D but the 16-35 2.8 L can go without any problems. I did you shoot alot of commercial work, weddings, events, and I am sure that I will continue through school just so I can stay afloat money wise. I didn't know there was a Penn Camera in DC I always shopped there in the past and have had great experiences. </p>

[john_shriver]

<p>A nice feature of the FM is that you can use AI and pre-AI lenses, by unlocking and flipping down the AI coupling lever. Now, for pre-AI lenses, you'll have to use stop down metering, but it will work. FM2 and later only use AI lenses. (I think some later pro models also have the flip-down AI lever.)<br>

It's easier to rent Nikon lenses than any other lenses. The market for used Nikkor lenses is very fluid.<br>

I'll admit I've got a large Pentax system. But some of the key lenses are annoyingly hard to find. Not a fluid market.</p>

 

[bebu_lamar]

<p>since you already narrow down to the FM or FM2 and want to save money I definitely recommend the FM. I don't miss any of the feature of the FM2. I rarely ever use 1/1000 let alone higher speed. I am not one of those who use flash when no flash is needed so the higher flash sync speed is of no important to me either.</p>

[richard_cochran]

<p>I own both an FM and an FM2n. They're both fine cameras. My own FM is a little more beat up than my FM2n, but then it's 21 years older, and it has seen a lot more hard use.</p>

<p>The main differences are the top shutter speed, flash sync speed, FM2n's viewfinder ready light (when used with a Nikon flash on the hot shoe), changeable screens for the FM2n, FM2n's ability to take the cordless databack (MF-16) and the FM's ability to mate with non-AI lenses. In practice, it's very rare that any of these features are important to me. The more important difference is the condition of the individual camera. And even though my FM is cosmetically more beat up than my FM2n, mine are both in excellent working condition, so there's very little reason for me to choose one over the other. I alternate between them somewhat randomly.</p>

<p>As others have mentioned, there are plenty of other choices these days, and it's not hard to find nice film cameras at very reasonable prices. But if you're looking at the FM and FM2n, you won't go wrong with either one. I'd base the choice on what you can find available in good condition at a reasonable price.</p>

[andylynn]

That 16-35 L could come in awfully handy on an EOS film body. Whatever else you do I still think picking up one of

those is a no brainer - even if it's just to use with the 50mm to have two films going, or for the ultrawide.

 

In manual focus Nikon I'd still say take a long look at the FE2. To me, it rates very high in usefulness, right up there

with the F3, because of metering - the needle meter, the TTL flash and the aperture priority auto option for when

you're feeling lazy or want it to be quick. Lenses - the 50mm 1.4 AIS and the 1.8 AIS (the older version with the wider

focus ring) are both very close to perfect. I've shot a few rolls of HP5+ lately with the 1.4 and it does a fantastic job.

(Another film tip - HP5+ in packs of two 36 exp rolls for $5 from Adorama, B&H or Freestyle!)

[doug grosjean]

<p>I haven't seen anybody mention this, but... what does the course instructor require?</p>

<p>I recently took Color Photo I at the college where I take Engineering classes. Officially, a manual-control 35mm SLR was required. But I was given a lot of leeway, and allowed to shoot with a variety of cameras: a Nikon N80 (I agreed to use it in Manual mode), a Widelux, and a medium-format Ciro-Flex TLR. My prof's attitude was that I could use any film camera I wanted, as long as I could successfully meet the requirements of the assignments - which I did. </p>

<p>That particular class, the lab portion was a LOT of color printing using an RA4 process, and filtration. The lecture portion exposed us to different techniques and styles. I enjoyed the class very much, though I'm using a lot of the color information in my drawings now. How? I'll draw a negative image of stars or neon, using markers.... then scan and invert. But that's a bit off-tangent for this thread.</p>

<p>Agreed with one of the other posters - in general, this forum has some of the kindest, gentlest, interesting, and talented photographers on P'net. It's where I hang out. I figure when photographers in this forum can get great results using the old junk ... err, classics ... that they use, they must be very good!</p>

<p>Note - I can joke like that because I'm using the same old classics, too.</p><div></div>

[rick_coulby2]

<p>I don't know which professor im gonna have and some allow there students to start right of with medium or large format but most kids start with 35mm. It is really based on your comfort with the systems. I am comfortable shooting with pretty much everything up to 8x10 but I dont wanna be "that guy" like the "know it all" so im gonna just shoot 35mm till I get the go to switch over to other formats. </p>

[john_cogburn]

<p>If your'e not afraid of being sneered at by brand-conscious classmates, then I concur with the advice to grab an all-manual K-mount SLR kit from the auction site. They often go for under $15. Get another for a back-up. I got a nice Ricoh KR-5sv for $11. Metal shutter. Over-under meter. Never jams.</p>

<p>Here's a good reference I found. It's a table that shows most of the K-mount SLRs of the 80s and 90s. The "NNYN" cameras are all-manual. I guess having program/auto/aperture-priority is nice, but an all-manual camera is less likely to break.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.butkus.org/chinon/ultimate_k-mount.htm">http://www.butkus.org/chinon/ultimate_k-mount.htm</a></p>

<p>But then you'll have to come up with some really cool images, if you want to show that you can do just as well with your cheap camera as your classmates with their expensive kits!</p>

[jodys]

<p>The other consideration, if you're going to keep the Canon 5d, is going Pentax screw-mount ('M42'). The lenses are superb, especially the Pentax Takumars, and with a $7 adapter they will work on your 5d with no loss of quality. You can buy a classic Pentax Spotmatic with 50mm f1.8 off fleaBay for $30 plus shipping (maybe $60-$90 for the same kit with the 50mm f1.4). Spend the rest of your budget on a good spot meter.</p>

<p>The kit will be limited in that there are few options for going automatic, the design of the lens pretty much doesn't allow it, or doesn't do it well. The up-side is you can buy quality lenses that perform on par with, or better than, most modern 'zoom' lenses, for an average of $20 to $100 per lens. Maybe more for a fish-eye, but you should be able to get everything from a 28mm to a 200mm, in brand names, for under $100.</p>

[Andy Collins]

<p>There are some really great cameras from all of the manufacturers. Take a look at the Nikon FE which will accept the older non-Ai lenses in addition to the other Nikon lenses that are available. It usually sells for a lot less than the FE2 but has a slower top shutter speed and flash sync speed. Still a top-rate camera, though. The F3 is simply fantastic, a photographic work of art and a supremely capable camera. In Canon's line...so many choices. The FTb is a great basic camera while the A-1 has a lot more automation that you can really grow into. The F-1 is my favorite but is commanding higher prices these days. The T90 is the pinnacle of manual focus cameras, in my opinion. Also look at the Olympus OM-1, a beautiful and compact mechanical camera. The OM-series is a real joy to use! Several people mentioned Minolta and you can indeed find Minolta bodies in excellent condition for low prices. They are durable and wonderful to use and the Rokkor lenses are first class. The XD11 is my favorite Minolta and one of my favorite cameras, period. The Pentax MX is very compact but pretty rugged, while the KX is larger but still fairly compact. So many choices...</p>

[rick_coulby2]

<p>I just got a FM2N and a Nikon 50mm 1.8 AI for 200.00!! Someone had just listed it and apparently wanted it to go quick. The whole camera is in mint condition like pristine. I see FM2N bodies go for way more then that in worse condition! Do you guys think I got a good deal?</p>

[wblynch]

<p>Nice find Rick.</p>

 

[rick_coulby2]

<p>Is there an adapter that will allow me to use Contax Zeiss lenses on the FM2n?</p>

[indraneel]

<p>Great deal, the FM2n sells for about $250 without the lens. If the 50 is really an AI (and not a series E) you really got a very nice deal. I'd still say, get the meter and shutter checked for accuracy with the money that was saved.</p>

[rick_coulby2]

<p>Thanks Majumdar, yes its the AI :). I plan to get it all checked out at Penn but either way I have a Sekonic L758DR which in retrospect was HUGE waste of money but atleast it'll get some use in school.</p>

<p>Oh and if anyones interested here is a 4 peices from a recent series I did using a friends Mamiya. Sorry the scans are bad.</p>

<p><a href="http://squarevoices.tumblr.com/">http://squarevoices.tumblr.com/</a></p>

[tony_defilippo1]

<p>Rick - Congrats on your FM2N deal and welcome to DC. I live downtown and get together with some folks for film photowalks on ocasion. We're alway's looking for more interested shooters so hit me up via my p-net profile if you're interested. I'd also be intersted in hearing about the MFA experience as someone who's never done any art related education beyond highschool.<br>

<br />Btw - I shoot with a range of Nikon's including an FM2 but I've also got a Pentax 6x7 which you mentioned, beast of a camera and alot of fun. </p>

[rick_coulby2]

<p>Got the camera in today and was shocked at the condition, it was like brand new, and it even had the titanium honeycomb shutter. The guy could of easily got 250+ on just the body. Cant wait to go shooting. </p>