Considering a 5D2

[danielleetaylor]

<p><em>The 35 f1.4 is a good enough reason on its own to only consider full frame. There is no crop camera equivalent.</em></p>

<p>I would agree with that.</p>

<p><em>Daniel, not interested.</em></p>

<p>Of course not. You couldn't tell me which crop came from which if your life depended on it, and the differences will never be more apparent than in 100% pixel views. In print any differences will be even harder to spot.</p>

<p>There are certainly valid reasons to spend the extra money on full frame. But anyone who thinks that superior image quality at low to mid ISO is one of them needs to check their beliefs against hard evidence.</p>

[danielleetaylor]

<p><em>What Scott said. Not interested...</em></p>

<p>See my reply to Scott.</p>

[Brad_]

No Daniel, I'm just not interested in engaging you. That subject has become your mission in life over

multiple threads here over the last year with your so-called "evidence" photos. Be happy with your camera

choice - you've saved some money. We're happy for you...

[justin_t1]

<p>Dave (Charles),<br>

I have shared a similar dilemma as yourself. I was about to purchase my first DSLR. I was given lots of advice also, and had the big push toward the 7d, for many of the same reasons mentioned here, technical advantages and such. I went against all of the advice I was given. It took a little bit of time to save for, but I bought a 5d II and have not regretted it one iota. The 7d is an amazing tool, but not for me.<br>

As with you, the 5d II just felt/sounded right. I like the view though the viewfinder, the depth of focus of full frame, etc.<br>

If the 5d II is what makes your heart flutter, then go for it. You said that you will be able to add lenses in fairly short order so sounds like new glass will not be a problem. Only you know what feels right in your hands.<br>

Don't settle for anything less than the one that fits YOU the most.<br>

At least that's what I think. I wish you luck camera hunting.</p>

[sam_adams2]

<p>Have to agree with Justin here. Sounds like you are looking to seriously approach this down the line so you might as well do it "right" in the first place. Ultimately, the camera these days is the "disposable" part of the system. I'm sure that I won't keep my 5DII for 25 years - like I did with my last camera body (still going strong...). So it comes down to lenses. And in that department - in my estimate - good Canon glass is still the best value. And those good lenses are still built around "full frame" cameras. I understand that some of the EF-S lenses are excellent. But they also limit future extension of the system towards pro bodies etc.<br>

And after having been through the process myself (at least half way through now): the cost difference of the bodies in the end is just a smaller portion of where it appears you're headed - especially if you' re starting all over and are new to digital. I started with the 5DII/24-105L "kit" and another lens. Then there was another lens (with 3 more to go for what I have in mind), a bag, the battery grip, another bag, tripod update (with another one on the horizon), a flash, another flash, and another, some remote triggers, new software, some PC upgrades, CF cards, little gizmos, batteries, more batteries, a few more gizmos, macro extender, light stands...<br>

And before you know it you're looking at a 5-digit dollar amount. If I had to pick just one camera/lens combo it would be the 5DII with a 50.</p>

<p> </p>

[bob_estremera]

<p>A great street photographer in New York tried the 5D but found he was missing a lot of the fast, spontaneous shots due to focusing speed. He went back to the latest EOS cropped sensor cameras.<br>

I have heard other photogs describe this focusing issue and it would be a very serious consideration for street photography. I have an XSi and paired with a nice 28-30mm prime, is a compact, quick to handle, and easy setup to carry all day. And you'd be very surprised at how handy the flip-out screen of the 600D or 60D will be. Image quality on the latest cropped EOS's are going to be great with a good lens.<br>

Go to a store and feel and handle them all.</p>

[Brad_]

>>> A great street photographer in New York tried the 5D but found he was missing a lot of the fast,

spontaneous shots due to focusing speed. He went back to the latest EOS cropped sensor cameras.

 

What is his name?

 

As an aside, I have both a 5D2 and an XSi. There's no comparison re focusing speed. 5D2 is much

better, as it is for image quality as well.

[Robin Smith]

<blockquote>

<p>fast, spontaneous shots due to focusing speed</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Pah. I don't believe it! Or rather I do not doubt you heard the statement but I doubt it is a fact that they are missing shots due to AF difficulties on the street. Birds in flight, sports with long teles - possibly, but street I find hard to believe.</p>

[hocus_focus]

<p>5d2 is a great camera. I don't understand why so many are unsupportive. You don't need to be a pro to buy a FF.</p>

<p>That said, 50mm is not a great general purpose lens. It's too long for interiors, groups and landscapes. It's also too short for portraits.</p>

<p>Consider something wider as a general purpose lens, like 35mm f/2 or 35mm f/1.4. Or better still, get a 24-70mm f/2.8. Add a portrait lens like 85mm f/1.8 or 135mm f/2.0 and you have a great set.</p>

 

[smooth_carrots]

<p>You know it's what you want, just buy it. I've been using my 5D2 since they first appeared and if I had to choose ANY camera, <strong>regardless</strong> of cost, I would still pick the 5D2 in today's market.</p>

[mjferron]

<p>Brad says go with DX if dynamic range isn't important to you. Hmm DXO says the full frame 5DII has a dyanamic range of 11.9 and the $799 dollar APS Nikon D5100 has a dynamic range of 13.2. Yet another myth busted. Not saying the 5D2 isn't a wonderful camera BTY. Just saying.</p>

[doug_nelson3]

<p>I just got a 5D2. For me, it's all about image quality and using good affordable optics as alternatives to these huge zooms. Short of a medium format digital, its the best image quality I can (barely) afford. Having used a Pentax APS-C digital, I like the way my 5D2's full range captures reach into the shadow areas and the controllable highlights using RAW. I just heard of a long-time pro who says he stays at ISO 800. I will check that out. Believe me, as cheap as I am, it was not easy to lay out perhaps the equivalent of everything I've spent on photography the first 20 years for just one camera body that probably will not give me the longevity of my old F-1 or Leicaflex. However, had I not bought the 5D2, I would be wishing I had. I love my EF 85 f1.8, and my Leica R 35 Summicron is stunning with this sensor.</p>

[bob_estremera]

<p>Brad, his name is Dave Beckerman.</p>

[dave_charles]

<p>Smooth Carrots - you are absolutely right! I do want it, and I am going to buy it. I feel it's the right camera for me. It's like having the right golf club in your hand. When you feel like you have the right club, you instinctively make a better shot! That's the story I'm sticking with anyway.<br>

Now the rest of you guys, quit arguing and take some beautiful pictures!<br>

Thanks for all the advice and counsel.</p>

[scott_ferris]

<p>Bob,</p>

<p>Dave Beckerman used a 5D, not a 5D MkII. From the little I have used a 5D I know the MkII focuses better.</p>

<p>Dave Charles,</p>

<p>Good for you! Now just make sure you get that 35mm f1.4..........</p>

[danielleetaylor]

<p><em>No Daniel, I'm just not interested in engaging you. That subject has become your mission in life...</em></p>

<p>LOL! I spend less time making my point than FF fans spend pushing the 5D2 with emotional appeals to non existent IQ differences. I guess it's their "mission in life."</p>

<p>If Dave Charles had unlimited funds he wouldn't be here asking about his purchase or starting with one cheap prime. Budget is obviously an issue. He doesn't need the features of the 7D, which means he would be looking at a 60D. So...which is the better and more flexible kit which will allow him to do more and which will last longer before he needs to add equipment?</p>

<p>5D2 + 50 f/1.4</p>

<p>60D + Sigma 30 f/1.4 + Tokina 11-16 f/2.8 + Canon 70-200 f/4L + Canon 430 EX II</p>

<p>That's just one example 60D kit. He has $1,500 to play with however he wants with the 60D route. Anyone who thinks that the 5D2 route is better in this instance or "starting off right" is kidding themselves. Dave would be a lot more productive, and have a lot more fun, with the 60D kit, which will also last him a lot longer before he has to spend money to expand.</p>

<p>He said he would be shooting <em>street, architecture, some landscape, family, indoor low light, and travel.</em> Why spend $3,000 to have one lens that does not adequately cover those subjects?</p>

[dave_charles]

<p>Actually, budget is not the issue. Justifying the expense in my mind is the issue. Once I do that, it's amazing how much gear I can acquire for a hobby, or so my wife tells me.</p>

[scott_ferris]

<p>I can help you there Dave :-)</p>

<p>Just think how much money you are saving by not buying and developing film! I used to spend $400-$600 per wedding on film, I shoot the same number of images with digital (around 400) and I spend 1/10 that.</p>

<p>If you are going to use them and have the money a 5D MkII and a 35 mm f1.4 are cheap.</p>

[dave_charles]

<p>Don't worry Scott, I justified it earlier today. I'm good to go. I went back and had another look at the 5d2 and that 35f1.4 - it's all over for me. I won't get all L glass, but the 35 will be the lens that I will use the most.</p>

[Brad_]

>>> I went back and had another look at the 5d2 and that 35f1.4 - it's all over for me. <P>

 

You made an excellent choice.<P>

 

Since getting my 5D2, and later my 35/1.4, my photography took a very noticeable jump up from when I

shot with a crop cam. Not just in quality due to the combination, which was readily apparent, but switching

from a 24-70 f/2.8 to a 35mm prime has drastically changed my approach to street photography and street

portraiture. <P>

 

Speaking about shooting with a single 35mm lens, I wrote about that subject in a blog post about a week ago, in case you're interested. <a href="http://allcitysf.com/2011/07/35mm-lens/">Click here...</a>

[dave_charles]

<p>Thanks Brad, I liked your blog. More importantly, I had a good look at your Citysnaps website. You have some amazing photographs of NY and SF. And your presentation of Alcatraz is simply incredible. </p>

[sam_adams2]

<p>Dave,<br>

I think you won't go wrong with that. And to Daniel's point: that may be true for you and a lot of other folks. I wouldn't say that either way of approaching this is "wrong" or "right". To me it's about reading a bit between the lines when someone asks for advice - and for being able to identify with the questions and, well, emotions.<br>

In other words: if some kid with a limited budget asks about a 7D kit vs a your suggested 60D kit I wouldn't try to push onto him or her my ideas about this kind of stuff. I may make a suggestion based on my experience if that kid doesn't even consider certain things (like buying primes, for example...). Dave gave some hints that this was not about budget (I understand, that budget is ALWAYS a concern no matter how much doe is burning in your pocket). He was asking about quality and had already looked at things in a certain way which likely ties back to his experience from the various great film cameras he mentioned. And some people here, including me, could relate to that.<br>

And to your suggested kit: call me crazy, but I would choose the 5DII plus 50 1.4 any day over the 60D kit that you suggested. And I'm not saying that your suggestion wasn't well thought through. It's actually amazing that those two sets have about the same monetary value.</p>

 

[mattb1]

The 5D II and 50mm is a great combo and will be for many years. However, if you are not in a hurry I would wait a

little while and see what the next gen brings. I mean the original 5D is still a great camera, but some of the

additions and ISO improvements on the II make it a more attractive camera. The next gen should add even more utility and perhaps

push the limits even more.

[g dan mitchell]

Daniel began: "... FF fans spend pushing the 5D2 with emotional appeals to non existent IQ differences."

 

Your contention that differences are non-existent is, of course, unsupportable nonsense.

 

A more valid point might have been that each photographer should consider whether or not the real differences

between formats suggest that a full frame or cropped sensor camera would better suit his/her particular situation.

 

For me and for my photography the full frame format better matches my needs. My initial thought was that our OP

would probably not see much advantage from full frame, given his initial description of his intentions.

 

I find your comments about "emotional" issues ironic, given the context of your post.

 

Take care,

 

Dan

[poucherw]

<p>If you want to take stunning pictures, you need to practice, you need an excellent dark room, you need an excellent lens, you need a body with a good sensor properly aligned to the lens, and you need to control the motion of the lens during exposure.<br>

Here is my recommendation. Prices are from B&H and Amazon. Price tag: under $5,000</p>

<ul>

<li>Darkroom: Adobe Photoshop, Bridge, Camera Raw. Install Canon software and profiles.</li>

<li>$200-$700. You may be eligible for educational pricing.</li>

<li>No substitutions! (You could do LightRoom or Aperture, but you wanted stunning!)</li>

</ul>

<ul>

<li>Lens: Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L lens w/hood (about $1,400)</li>

<li>B&W 77mm UV Haze 010 F-Pro MRC Filter (about $90)</li>

<li>$1,500 for 10 years use.</li>

<li>No substitutions!</li>

</ul>

<ul>

<li>Camera Body: Canon 5DMk2 body (about $2500)</li>

<li>Reliable UDMA 600X Compact Flash Card (16GB or 32GB) $100-$200</li>

<li>If this is a problem, buy a Canon 5D used and save.</li>

<li>Alignment: Canon factory calibration about $75</li>

<li>This is essential.</li>

</ul>

<ul>

<li>A Steady Hand:</li>

<li>Opteka CFM300 Monopod (carbon fiber) about $60</li>

<li>Giottos MH1304-110C Pro Mini Ballhead about $20</li>

<li>This is essential.</li>

</ul>

<p>Advise:<br>

Don't substitute equipment. If you really must, then buy a used 5D and send it in to Canon with the lens for calibration. Save money for a 5DMk2 or the Mk3 when they come out next year. Wait 6 months, or until the second firmware release before buying a new release camera.<br>

Getting Started: (takes two weeks)<br>

The first think to do is take a few photos and make sure that the camera and lens are working fine. This lens will focus extremely quickly. Put the camera in spot auto-focus. Choose only the center spot. Take a number of photos at different settings. Look at 100% to see if the focus spot is pixel accurate. If not (and it won't be), send the camera and lens to Canon for calibration. When you get it back, it will be spot on.<br>

Develop a Game Plan:<br>

When you get it back, make sure the filter and lens are clean. Put the filter on the lens and leave it. Make sure you use the lens hood for every shot you make. It makes a big difference.<br>

Make sure that any photo that you take with a shutter speed of 1/60 or below is stabilized by the monopod. The purpose of the ball is to let the monopod have the freedom of placement without restricting the plane of camera. Use the monopod as much as you can. It's really light.<br>

Take all of your exposures in RAW. Learn to use the darkroom (your software). The art is done in the darkroom. That's straight from Ansel Adams to me to you. <br>

In the matter of making an action shot, choose shutter speed over aperture over iso sensitivity. Learn to use the autofocus. Leave room for cropping with the center of attention in the center of the exposure. Use the rule of 1/3s in the darkroom.<br>

Practice:<br>

When you practice, compose 3 shots but don't press the shutter release. Then, think back through each of those shots. Think about the composition, why you placed the camera where you did, and why you chose your settings. Did you get the shot you wanted? OK, now make those shots. Repeat for 20 minutes. Do it 3 times a day. Do it every day for 30 days.<br>

Use f5.6 or f8 if you can. If you need f4 or f11, they are available. Use something else if the composition demands it. To use the macro capability, you will need to study lighting.<br>

Share your first stunning photos:<br>

If you don't produce a stunning shot after practicing 30 days (total elapsed time 60 days from arrival of equipment), I'll be surprised. <br>

Master, then invest:<br>

Don't buy any more equipment until you can take stunning shots routinely with this equipment. Your next investment will likely be an EF 35mm f/1.4L lens or the EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS. You might want to pick up another body for the lens. It's good to have a pair and to not disturb the factory alignment. With the 5DMk2, you can also fine focus each lens. But the factory can make adjustments that you can't.<br>

Hope this helps.</p>