Single Camera, Single Focal Length ? !

luis_g · July 6, 2011

one ANT - "Focal Length affects perspective but how can you stand in the one spot and have so many perspectives of the same scene."

This is exactly backwards. Perspective has to do with where you are standing in relation to everything in the frame, not the focal length you are using, which only defines the field of view.

Please do not take my word for it. Stop maligning zooms for a minute, dust off the old kit lens, and try it for yourself. Use a tripod, and zoom from one end of the focal length range to the other. Layer the pictures over each other, and you will discover that they have identical perspective, but the focal length determines the field of view (crop) from a given distance.

The strength of zooms lies in that you can shift position to set perspective, then crop via zooming. While this is of little use with stereotypical dynamic SP type situations, in others, like portraits, or static SP situations/scenes can be used to great advantage.

People are quite eager to vilify zooms because they are seen as signifiers of newbiness. After all, the greats from the 1950's, and everyone using a Leica M didn't use zooms, did they? They're just tools. If you can't make them work for you, don't use them. If you can, do. It's that simple. I'm not trying to sell anyone on anything, only saying that there's a lot of approaches.

Brad_ · July 6, 2011

>>> People are quite eager to vilify zooms because they are seen as signifiers of newbiness.

Not true and besides, I would never pretend to speak for "People." From personal experience, though, primes are

much faster to use, offer faster speed and dof choice, better IQ (when the right one is chosen), lighter weight, and smaller. And

most importantly, become second nature when composing for those that are experienced.

Street photo:

Street portrait:

c_wyatt · July 6, 2011

Luis is correct on perspective. About from depth of field, you get exactly the same perspective, cropped, from a longer lens if you stand in the same place.

One Ant said: Only the prime users will know what it means to compose (with zero crop) for a scene ....and perspective is 9tenths of composition.

I use a prime, but I still think this is wrong, depending on what you mean by 'zero crop' (?). A lot of great photographers use zooms and have no trouble with great compositions. An example is James Nachtwey, who I gather uses a 16-35mm on full frame for most of his work (plus a fast fifty for low light).

I really don't care if people use zooms or primes. Modern zooms give great resolution, however I don't think this is a major issue in street photography. What matters in photography is the end product - the image. Not what gear you used to get it. Use what gear works.

luis_g · July 7, 2011

C Wyatt - "I really don't care if people use zooms or primes. Modern zooms give great resolution, however I don't think this is a major issue in street photography. What matters in photography is the end product - the image. Not what gear you used to get it. Use what gear works."

Exactly. I own a lot of gear, well over thirty prime lenses, so it's not like I have anything against primes. And, I've been doing this for several decades, during which I have acquired a little experience. I will speak for "people" again, and say that from experience, one size does not fit all, and people's mileage does vary. I've seen a film of Steve McCurry photographing on the streets of NYC using a zoom. I think it is a very good thing that there are several viable approaches (I remember a time not so long ago when SLRs were generally vilified for SP) and that we don't all have to march in lockstep.To each, his own.

Brad_ · July 7, 2011

OK then, Luis, I guess when you say:

"People are quite eager to vilify zooms because they are seen as signifiers of newbiness. After all, the

greats from the 1950's, and everyone using a Leica M didn't use zooms, did they?"

You've apparently done surveys. And as you say, "people" are simply blindly copying the greats like HCB

going with primes, rather choosing their own better solution...

eric_arnold · July 7, 2011

i like oneAnt's photos. not completely sold on his anti-zoom rant (seems a little self-justifying--that zeiss glass ain't cheap), though i do see his point. the fact is that using a prime forces composition in a way zooms can't. also they're smaller. but i'm not sure that everyone using a zoom for SP is 'paying the piper,' so to speak.

one_ant · July 7, 2011

you cut off a lot of things with that zoom (grin) ...that's a payment to the piper right there. Back to Ruben and his re-evaluating. I know you are an RF fan and wonder if something like the new FujiFilm X100 isn't worth considering (although I would wait for a return to pre-earthquake prices). Its a fixed 35mm equivalent and would suit many of the street scenes that catch your eye. Your s90 could stay in a pocket for everything else which makes you very equipped and very portable. You have experienced hands and I wonder if its the lack of a viewfinder that is causing you to distance yourself from the scene. I wonder too if your question was as much about a dslr as it was about lenses. I have a number of friends using the X100 and all exclaim how they feel more the spirit of being a street photographer and surprisingly their pictures are showing this same spirit. Its been a bit of fun watching them and rather than just taking pictures in the street, they are becoming accomplished. Its not as general use as your s90 might be but its simplifying your need for street photography and as I said you have a penchant for RF. I know the X100 is not RF but it is designed with a street photographer in mind. Stunning low light performance, great for chasing light and shadows, brilliant colour. If its dslr then contrary to belief its actually possible to own a zoom and a prime simultaneously...

..

ɹǝpun uʍop puɐl ǝɥʇ ɯoɹɟ

luis_g · July 8, 2011

[Not reviewing any work here, just making a few comments]

Ruben, I do not think a change in cameras or lens type would make much difference in your work. I see not just some spatial distancing from your subjects, but emotional distancing as well, although there are explicit narratives and some protean themes already in your work. Some of it appears to be shyness in approaching your subjects, and I also see some scattered energies. When you narrow focus thematically , as with the dogs, your work gets considerably stronger. That would be my suggestion to you, to be less generic and choose something specific thematically to focus on.

In the picture of the car, you tightened the framing way too much, cutting out context that would have added relational complexity and depth to the picture.

I do agree that the Fuji X100 is a great camera.

______________________________________

kparratt · July 8, 2011

I simply prefer rangefinder focusing, even with my eyes. I have lost too much because of auto focus digitals doing what they want, not what I want. For street photography and one lens in 35mm format? ... it is a 35mm lens. I will get a faster, later 35mm, ideally 35 Leica 35mm f/1.4 ASPH. I am happy with film.

fi_rondo1 · July 8, 2011

Midway through this thread Ton commented: Photography is quite easy when you think about it ;-)

I'll add that it's even easier when you don't have to think about it. Simplicity is the way to go. Although I've used zooms in the past, I found that knowing my camera and the focal lengths make it easier to not have to think. Like the Boy Scouts: Be prepared... and a single 50, 40 or 28 on a small film camera does the trick for me.

If I use a zoom it'll be for a particular purpose or project. Having the tools and knowing the tools is what it's really about. But these huge digital cameras with their elongated lenses, objectively speaking, not only make you stand out in a crowd, but they look kind of ludicrous.

Spearhead · July 8, 2011

they look kind of ludicrous.

</blockquote>

I'm pretty sure that's the major factor influencing people's photography. I read GQ to help avoid looking ludicrous also when I'm out shooting.

one_ant · July 8, 2011

With a single FL the user handles it as though they have framelines in their eyes. Having a lens at a particular FL on a camera is only a part of the total system. Its like a painter considering the canvas before he starts, the format in which an image is to be placed is a really strong concept. I'll return to perspective because its one of the user inputs. Your mind's eye has to see the scene before your camera does. This 3rd eye doesn't see in cropped FLs and instead uses the perspective of angles and subjects relative to a scene. With a zoom you make a scene fit the composition and its an after-thought. With a prime it becomes instinctive and you see the composition before you press the shutter. Honestly zoom users have no idea what we are talking about but it becomes instinctive and for me on some days the reward is that while I am getting an image, my mind is totally free of thought...I am so immersed in what I am doing that I forget about the world and all its worries. You don't even notice the viewfinder or your own feet. If you have to think, if you have multiple choices all at the same time, if you can close-in on a scene without having to walk into it, then you would think this was the advantage but these are the things that would hinder a prime user.

Do we have any painters or drawers here? They would immediately recognize what I just said.

With a wide in street the objective is to bring depth into a scene but on a zoom its used to fit a scene. The wider you go the more noticeable this is. Its akin to taking a pic with a wide at distance. Of course some images are wanted but if its a person of interest, then you want to be in close where perspective is the largest part of composition. A zoom user in the same scene is more mechanical, more logical and will use the lens to compose the scene by using FL cropping. And the results are not the same, they can be sometimes but think of a picture you have seen and somehow it gave you a feeling that something had been cut off ...its likely you were looking at a zoom right there. I think that long FL zooms are useful but the wide to 100mm range are problematic for street, it takes away the perspective that is fitting for any given FL. I'll repeat a pic as it explains this clearly...

Its a 21mm lens ....I had to get in close. The lens forced me to. I guessing you might be catching on now. If it was my 24-70 then you can guess that with no time to react I would have to decide where was I going to take this pic. I could take it at 70mm but with the prime I wasn't thinking about these things, I was seeing in 21mm and knew where I had to be. You have to consider too that all I had on the camera was a 21mm lens. I didn't plan to get this picture just as you cannot plan what FL to use. Its one shot you get, you have to rely on your eyes and your instinct. Prime users also see subjects entering and exiting a scene and the timing ...you don't have to with a zoom. You can simply change FL to make everything fit. Zooms are convenient ...and you pay for this convenience.

Someone will say it doesn't matter ...you will get a pic anyway regardless and of course you can take a pic any which way or how. But street photography requires you to enter and become a part of the scene ...zoom users, well they just watch us from where they are standing.

ONΞant —-oooO—- —-(—)—- —–\–(– ——\_)- ———–Oooo— ———–(—-)— ————)–/—- ————(_/-

eric_arnold · July 9, 2011

you cut off a lot of things with that zoom (grin) ...that's a payment to the piper right there.

</blockquote>

i don't know about that. that pic was at 24mm which is the widest setting on my 24-70. a 24mm lens in the same position would have taken the exact same shot.

In the picture of the car, you tightened the framing way too much, cutting out context that would have added relational complexity and depth to the picture.

</blockquote>

subjective opinion, but i disagree. what you dont see in that pic are things which i took out b/c they would be distracting. i made the capture i wanted to make.

I was seeing in 21mm and knew where I had to be.

</blockquote>

ANT, let's say i set my zoom to a single focal length and leave it there. wouldnt it be theoretically possible for me to 'see' in that FL? or is that only possible with a prime?

Zooms are convenient ...and you pay for this convenience.

</blockquote>

seems to me like anyone with 5-6 zeiss primes has paid a whole lot more, financially-speaking, than the average zoom user. in the USA, we call that overcompensating for one's deficiencies. you probably drive a Ferrari too.

Someone will say it doesn't matter ...you will get a pic anyway regardless and of course you can take a pic any which way or how. But street photography requires you to enter and become a part of the scene ...zoom users, well they just watch us from where they are standing.

</blockquote>

mmm-hmmm. sure. ANT, since you've thrown all pretense of a balanced argument out of the window, i'm not gonna try to convince you otherwise. me personally, i shoot with both zooms and primes. but i don't just stand around and watch the mighty legion of prime users achieve great captures while i dither with focus rings from a static position, as you imply. i do agree with the part about entering a scene and and engaging people. but that has more to do with using shorter lenses than using prime lenses. a 135 or 180 ain't exactly 'in your face.' what you're talking about, for instance, is just as possible with a 17-50 as with a 21mm. one thing you can't do with a 21mm, however, is take a shot at 17mm.

eric_arnold · July 9, 2011

on some days the reward is that while I am getting an image, my mind is totally free of thought...I am so immersed in what I am doing that I forget about the world and all its worries. You don't even notice the viewfinder or your own feet.

</blockquote>

i missed this part. LOL. who needs oxycontin when you've got a prime? i personally like to keep my wits about me when doing SP, but that's just me.

one_ant · July 9, 2011

ANT, let's say i set my zoom to a single focal length and leave it there. wouldnt it be theoretically possible for me to 'see' in that FL? or is that only possible with a prime?

</blockquote>

You would understand what I was saying if you did. I tried to do it and its really difficult. I guess if you go all silly and tape it up it might work but getting a prime is just easier (grin)

I haven't read the rest of your post yet ...am doing some urgent jobs here and will tackle each as a snippet ...

You also miss something else not having using a prime. Its specific to my (self-justifying) use of Zeiss lenses but I'm sure some Canikon or other users can add to the pot and their own experiences with FLs although the Rokkors, Nocts, Crons and Lux's spring to mind and even version between them.

I don't make any reference to speed, like 0.95, 1.0, 1.2, 1.4, 1.8, 2 because that would just be unfairly rubbing your face in it. (and yes that was with a grin).

21mm has insane dof and edge to edge sharpness, 25mm has a really nutty close to distance focus (I'm waiting on the new redesign that might even be here this year), 28mm has a field curvature to be put to good use. It also has an advantage over the 35mm for strong highlights. The 35mm is bitingly sharp and is a much stronger contrast than the 28mm. The differences between the two are more than 7mm. My 50 and 100s are both Macros and so the differences become more obvious. there is a 50/1.4 that although my 50/2makro is supposed to be the better lens it excells at mid to infinity. The 18mm rarely gets a mention, its too close to the 21 and the 21 is too good to compare. There is rumor of a wider than 18 and longer than 100 but Zeiss are adamant that there will never be anything over 200mm as manual focus becomes near impossible (I've set my own limit to 100mm)

Zeiss Distagon 21mm

Zeiss Distagon 28/2

Zeiss Distagon 35/2

50/2Makro-Planar

Nikkor 50/1.2

In a zoom, the design focus is on optimal quality at each FL. We all have experience of the weakness at the widest and longest ends but its not a design that brings along the features that are possible in a collection of primes. Rokkors and Nocts.

...and so its another penny to the piper (his pants will fall down if we keep filling his pockets like this)

one_ant · July 9, 2011

seems to me like anyone with 5-6 zeiss primes has paid a whole lot more, financially-speaking, than the average zoom user. in the USA, we call that overcompensating for one's deficiencies. you probably drive a Ferrari too.

</blockquote>

You are pushing the personal button ...dont.

The Zeiss are cheaper or near equal to the Nikon equivalents so that just makes no sense. Besides wrong you are also OT ..for that I'll take another penny (make it two).

eric_arnold · July 9, 2011

ANT, of all those shots you just posted, only one (the last) can be called SP. the others are posed or staged or more landscape pics. but its not your methodology so much that i take issue with, it's your mania. i understand the prime vs. zoom argument, but... you are truly a madman, high on your own dust. i hope you take that as a compliment. i'm sure you will. reading your post is kind of like reading the diary of Toulouse Lautrec all junked up on absinthe. i mean it's good that you smell your own vapors and all (sort of), and more power to you for it, but perhaps not so useful for everyone else as you might think. maybe if you could write in complete sentences without going off topic or ruffling your own feathers, we could glean something from you other than egotistical dementia.

fi_rondo1 · July 9, 2011

I read GQ to help avoid looking ludicrous also when I'm out shooting.

Jeff Spirer

Good to know, Jeff... Hope it's helped...

ray . · July 9, 2011

Single camera, single lens/ focal length and keeping it simple is a very good idea, but a good photographer can make good photographs with just about anything made to take pictures. In the end zoom or prime matters little. It's much more about the photographer's vision, and then comfort in using whatever he or she chooses.

eric_arnold · July 9, 2011

just want to reiterate: i like oneANT's shot's very much; they're fantastic. but its a bit of a turnoff to have someone thumbing their expensive primes at you while claiming that any work done with a zoom is automatically inferior. besides the fact a lot of shooters, street and otherwise, would disagree with that, there's simply not just one approach to photography. in the end, being a prime zealot is an entirely self-serving approach which makes about as much sense as proclaiming that one religion is all the world needs... (thinks about the implications of what's just been typed) ...oh, wait...

Damon DAmato · July 9, 2011

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/oneant/5528776855/">Now it all makes sense....</a>

MarieH · July 9, 2011

I`ve been on the street forum for almost a year now and I have seen outstanding street photos from all focal lengths and with all kinds of cameras. Its having the right lens for the right moment and being in the right place at the right time. I use the tamron 17-50 2.8 and find most of my more interesting ones are at about 24 to 35mm but once in a while I sometimes wish for a lens with longer reach like 100mm would be nice. My 2 cents gents.

eric_arnold · July 10, 2011

<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/oneant/5528776855/" target="_blank">Now it all makes sense....</a>

what does? taking 50 posed shots of a homeless guy, cherry-picking one, and then getting up on a soapbox to rant about primes?

ray . · July 10, 2011

The extended rant on this thread with photo references is proof positive that you can shoot crap with a prime, as well as a zoom!

Damon DAmato · July 10, 2011

what does? taking 50 posed shots of a homeless guy,

</blockquote>

Eric, what I was referring to is that we've met our friend with the primes before-- when he was here under a different name-- which he admitted in the thread that was deleted yesterday.

If you remember the homeless guy photo, I'm sure you'll remember the guy who took it. He must have posted it ten times about a year ago. Not unlike the extreme close up of the zombied out bowtie guy he's posted three or four times this week-- twice in this thread alone.

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