Which monolights Hypersync to 1/8000th w/Nikon D3s + MiniTT1/FlexTT5 set-up?

ian_casement · June 17, 2011

There's Hypersync - which can increase your x-sync speed and can provide additional output benefit over the maximum ratio to daylight that you can achieve at x-sync.. like the example I shown with the D3x and SB900, where at f10 there is little change in overall exposure (in the 'subject' area), but a -1.6 stop benefit over ambient (by the fact that 1/800s can be used instead of 1/250s).

And there's Hypersync which doesn't afford this benefit, but still changes the sync point to one simulating an original HSS sync point.

The Hypersync which doesn't provide the additional benefit is freely available by using the HSS hack to switch your flash sync from triggering when your shutter is completely open - to triggering when your shutter STARTS to open. This is the regular HSS sync timing point, and one which PW switches to by default after any Hypersync advantage has been exploited, unless it's switched off, and then you get banding as I illustrated.

Your links to tombol illustrate the use of Hypersync to advance the sync timing, but uses the long burn of the flash. There looks to be clipping on the right hand side of the last image, or it could be that the flash head is so close that it's the limit of the reflector... That's not really an issue, but ISO 200, 1/8000 at F5 is not any greater than 1/250s f25, which the Ranger is easily capable of without Hypersync., so any 'beating out the ambient' there - doesn't exist.

ellis_vener_photography · June 17, 2011

The kind of light volume falloff you will get in either Nikon's FP or Canon's HSS mode is very dependent on the aperture you have chosen to shoot at. a larger diameter aperture means a larger range in shutter speeds in either FP or HSS sync modes.

ISO 200, 1/8000 at F5 is not any greater than 1/250s f25

</blockquote>

As far as the numbers go, quite possibly. But there is one obvious problem: ƒ/25. it is a problem because what if I do not want work at f/25 because I want shallower depth of field? What if I don't like working at ƒ/25 because I do not like the loss of resolved detail due to diffraction? What if the lenses I use do not stop down to ƒ/25?

The response will be: Then lower the power the output energy level on the Elinchrom Ranger. Okay. but if you are shooting outdoors in bright sunlight , not at dawn or dusk that ambient light exposure at ISO 125 for a shutter speed of 1/250th will be right around f/11. So what do you propose that a photographer do if he wants to shoot at an aperture larger than f/11 and have the background not overexposed?

ian_casement · June 17, 2011

The response will not be 'Then lower the power the output energy level on the Elinchrom Ranger'.

The response will be - in the case of the OP, and Nikon.. Stick a speedlight on the hotshoe, turn the Ranger up to full power and set f11 @ whatever shutterspeed works for the modifiers employed. Choose a radio transmitter and fit it to the PC sync with a receiver on the Ranger. Shoot.

Here's one I've done previously with a softbox as an example, without a speedlight on the camera, just using the Quantum FreeXwire radio system.. other radio systems work the same way I mentioned, so too does a slave cell, but less efficiently.. just choose your aperture:<img src="http://www.accoladephotography.co.uk/DPR/HSS-MEDSB.jpg" alt="" width="480" height="1981" />

The model was stepped forward in the last shot just to get to 1/8000s. Take off the softbox and you can underexpose the ambient a couple of stops.

You can do the same with speedlights and not have the HSS or FP mode penalty - meaning - you lose no physical output.

studio460 · June 18, 2011

Ian:

Thank you for your detailed and well-illustrated replies! I'm afraid I'll have to re-read them several more times, since I think I'm getting lost. (I realize you were merely illustrating a point, but I'm likely to shoot my daylight exterior Hypersync images at apertures significantly larger than f/25 or f/11, as demonstrated by your later examples). Also, I'm not sure why you would recommend that I stick a Speedlight in my hotshoe. My specific application would be similar to your second demo: large softbox or silk, using a Dynalite Uni400JR and/or Speedotron Force 10 monolight. If I used a Speedlight at all, it would only be off-camera as an accent or backlight (if it would even read at those levels). Again, I have to re-read your posts to better understand your examples.

ian_casement · June 18, 2011

Sticking a speedlight on your hotshoe fools the camera into resetting the x-sync to the moment the sensor starts to be exposed. If you're using a Mini or Flex already this won't be neccesary as these will do that for you with an added sync time adjustment.

I think some confusion arises with the term 'Hypersync' which at best can increase the ability to combat high ambient light by using relatively short flash durations if you're willing to compromise, and at worst doesn't work and introduces banding. It can then default to provide the same level of flash/ambient as the HSS hack will. All this with a caveat of which camera system, camera model and flash equipment is used.

If you take <a href="mailto:f16@1/250s">f16@1/250s</a> as a starting point, all of the following are possible using the hack:

No additional ambient beating ability is present there, although even with 'slow' burning flashes I've seen significant increases in 'ambient beating' where the shutterspeeds are approaching the upper limits.

ian_casement · June 18, 2011

I just came across this by way of illustation that at the upper limits are capable of better 'ambient beating' than the levels nearer the X-sync with long burn flashes.

On the left, 400ws Quantum, on the right 400ws Lumedyne

studio460 · June 19, 2011

Ian, thank you again for posting those additional examples. Running my own tests should make all of this much clearer, since I only just received my Speedotron Force 10 yesterday. At first glance, I seem to be "wasting" about a stop of output at 1/8,000th. This is just a guess. I'll have to perform more tests with a flashmeter to see what's actually going on. Here's the results of some quick tests yesterday afternoon (note that while the background is black in the last two frames, there was still quite a bit of late-afternoon ambient daylight present):

Nikon D3s + MiniTT1 + FlexTT5 + Speedotron Force 10:

<img src="http://studio460.com/images/x6105.jpg" alt="" /> 1/3,200th @ f/2.0

<img src="http://studio460.com/images/x6134.jpg" alt="" /> 1/8,000th @ f/1.6

<img src="http://studio460.com/images/x6130.jpg" alt="" /> 1/3,200th @ f/1.6

[note: an SB-800 was also fired in the last two frames as a hairlight, unfiltered; the Force 10 was gelled with full-CTO.]

studio460 · June 19, 2011

Although I forgot to take a shot of the entire set-up, I did shoot the modifier itself: The Speedotron Force 10, with a standard reflector at full-flood, was placed a few feet behind a Photoflex 39" x 39" Litepanel, with a "translucent" (i.e., "silk") panel attached. A Vagabond Mini Lithium was used to power the the Force 10 (set at slow-recycle), and power was set at both 1/2- and full-power for various shots. Recycle time was about 3 seconds at half-power; 8 seconds at full-power:

ian_casement · June 19, 2011

The slower flash duration will provide you with greater flexibility and choice of aperture when you get around to using it properly. It will be interesting to find out whether the output to 1/8000s is consistant with the 1/250s output and whether you gain or lose anything, but either way it's a useful feature to know you have.

The Force 10 appears to work quite well.

studio460 · June 20, 2011

Sheldon said:

The whole long tail strobe/hypersync/shutter speed well beyond the sync speed . . . doesn't help you overpower ambient, it just allows you to shoot with more open apertures without having to use an ND filter.

</blockquote>

Okay, after doing my own, brief, and totally unscientific tests yesterday, I re-read your post, and I think I finally get it! I am losing flash power, and while Hypersync alone may not let me "overpower the sun," at least I can try to clobber it with a high-Watt second strobe, really close to my subject! Thank you again, for that informative discourse!

studio460 · June 20, 2011

Ian said:

It will be interesting to find out whether the output to 1/8000s is consistant with the 1/250s output and whether you gain or lose anything, but either way it's a useful feature to know you have.

</blockquote>

Yes, I can't wait to do some more precise measurements, and see how much I'm actually losing/gaining. Thanks again for all your comments and posted illustrations!

Ian also said:

The Force 10 appears to work quite well.

</blockquote>

Yeah, I love this thing! It's solidly built and has an ingeniously simple and effective way of adjusting its focus, with its big red focus collar/reflector ring design. Plus, these things just look cool (although, it is huge)! At a flash duration of 1/850th, unfortunately for Hypersync, it's not the longest, but at least it's constant throughout its power range. I plan to buy a Dynalite Uni400JR as well, for its longer, 1/675th flash duration.

studio460 · June 20, 2011

My thanks to all who contributed to this thread: Pete, Ellis, Marc, Sheldon, and Ian. Thank you all, for helping to clarify what I presume is an often-misunderstood topic (FP/HSS, Hypersync, 't' measurements, and ambient exposure control). It's a tricky technique, with a ton of variables, and a few important caveats. Your assistance is much appreciated, and has really helped to shallow my learning curve here. Thanks, guys!

ian_casement · June 20, 2011

Yeah, I love this thing! It's solidly built and has an ingeniously simple and effective way of adjusting its focus, with its big red focus collar/reflector ring design. Plus, these things just look cool (although, it is huge)! At a flash duration of 1/850th, unfortunately for Hypersync, it's not the longest, but at least it's constant throughout its power range. I plan to buy a Dynalite Uni400JR as well, for its longer, 1/675th flash duration.

</blockquote>

Consistent flash duration throughout the power range will be a useful addition.

studio460 · June 20, 2011

Using non-ControlTL supported monolights with a MiniTT1/FlexTT5 set-up:

Apparently, my Nikon Speedlights do have enough "oomph" to act as accent or hair lights, even in combination with my 1,000 Watt-second, Speedotron Force 10 monolight (when used through a modifier). Using the FlexTT5 with the Force 10 does two things: 1.) Enables bullet-proof RF triggering. 2.) Enables Hypersync control over the monolight.

[Note: to use a FlexTT5 with a Force 10, you simply connect a mono mini male cable into the FlexTT5's flash sync port, with the other end of the cable being a male 1/4" mono phone, which plugs into the Force 10's sync jack. If Speedotron made an accessory mount which could mate to its top mounting groove (another cool feature, by the way), I could rig a $10 flash bracket to accomodate a neat place to mount the TT5 (currently, it's simply dangling by its sync cable).]

My FlexTT5 doesn't perform any remote control features over the Force 10's power output. But, I found that isn't as great a handicap as I thought it would be. Since the Force 10 (or, Dynalite Uni400JR) will generally only be used as the primary key for daylight exteriors, it's also typically going to be going through a large modifier anyway (cutting it down even more). So, I'll likely be using the Force 10 at full- or half-power 99% of the time. The Dynalite, I'll likely use at 100% power, 100% of the time.

So, just as I do when lighting for television using continous sources, I'll be controlling my flash exposure mainly by adjusting flash-to-subject distance, and by the type of modifier used. However, the beauty of the MiniTT1/FlexTT5 set-up, with a Nikon SU-800 or PocketWizard AC3, is that you may easily combine unsupported strobes (set, in my case, typically at full-power), with i-TTL controlled Speedlights.

ian_casement · June 20, 2011

In cases beyond maximum x-sync, lower output values are barely an issue. Useful to have, but mainly of little use. (Unless recycle time become important, I suppose).

ian_casement · June 20, 2011

Apparently, my Nikon Speedlights do have enough "oomph" to act as accent or hair lights, even in combination with my 1,000 Watt-second, Speedotron Force 10 monolight

</blockquote>

You will get more from them using them at full power without using FP mode. I don't know how you might manage that with the PW's though, unless you use them out of the hotshoe via a sync cable?

studio460 · June 21, 2011

Ian said:

You will get more from them using them at full power without using FP mode. I don't know how you might manage that with the PW's though, unless you use them out of the hotshoe via a sync cable?

</blockquote>

Maybe by taping the TTL contacts on the hot shoe?

studio460 · June 21, 2011

Nikon D3s + SU-800 + MiniTT1 + Flex TT5 (2) + Speedotron Force 10 @ 1/2 power w/full-CTO + SB-600 @ -0.7 EV:

AF-S Nikkor 85mm f/1.4G; ISO 200; 1/3,200th @ f/1.6.

studio460 · June 21, 2011

Ian:

I'm still struggling through some of your posts, trying to piece together some quantitative conclusions from them. In previous posts, you mentioned an Elinchrom Ranger. I assume you meant an 1,100 Watt-second Ranger RX pack and a Freelight 'A' or 'S' head. So, in your second series of photo examples (model on grass), I assume it's an 1,100 Watt-second head through a large softbox, several feet from the model. According to a B+H description, the Ranger RX pack's longest flash duration is only 1/2,300th.

In your third series of photo examples (interior), you're using, I assume, a Quantum Qflash 400Ws strobe, and a similar Lumadyne model. However, I wasn't able to find published data on either strobe's flash duration.

My question is, you seemed to be able to successfully attain high-shutter speed sync (apparently using Quantum triggers) without any obvious apparent loss of power, or shutter curtain issues. Is this correct? Could you elaborate a bit more on some of the conclusions from those two series? Thanks!

ian_casement · June 21, 2011

Maybe by taping the TTL contacts on the hot shoe?

</blockquote>

I don't know.. The PW ControlTL system won't trigger a pin and rail flash at all unless you use a hotshoe adapter to a plug, or just a sync cable. I can't see that taping up the TTL contacts would work as this would reduce the TTL flash to the same pin and rail flash which I tried and doesn't work.

ian_casement · June 21, 2011

It was TomBol not I who was using a Ranger with an 'S' head, I think you asked me to comment on that after you posted his link ?

The results with the Elinchrom indicate that the same HSS hack is available which is already possible and just maintaining ratio. I continually tell people that they need to try out their kit to see what it does as (apparently) this doesn't work with fast duration flashes - yet it works fine with Speedlights up to around 1/800 - 1/1000s as I recall even with cheap radios, and without the associated FP/HSS output penalty. Different cameras do provide different results.

I use Quantum and Lumedyne with which (as you previously mentioned with your PW's) work in TTL and trigger other manual flash too at the same time. I can use this in a variety of ways; A Trio on camera with built-in radio with FP mode using regular HSS and syncing Manual remote Quantums and Lumedynes, a radio transmitter and a 'D' adapter on camera giving regular sync TTL FEC and then combined with this hack (illustrated with the softbox / girl on grass), and just radio alone (with an FP mode flash in hotshoe) for the hack again, using just the standard receivers.

Having the 'D' adapter on camera which has TTL pins, sets the camera to FP mode for shutterspeeds above x-sync, after that, setting the remotes Manually 1/1 enables their sync to 1/8000s. Just as the girl on the grass was shot.

The Quantums can be configured for 200ws and 400ws, and the Lumedynes 200/400/600/800ws. This by adding booster modules, which all work beyond x-sync. (The Lumedynes go higher with a Quartz head to 2400ws and a multi-head to 3200ws, but I don't go to those extremes as I have power packs if I ever had need for that. I have a 6K pack that syncs this way).

Since the greatest level of output of any flash, long or short duration, is it's peak output - it stands to reason that in all cases the Peak output is always present, this combined with a long (or short) tale. Where a shutterspeed of 1/250s takes nearer to 1/150s to complete from initial openning to final closure and an 1/8000s shutterspeed takes nearer the 1/250s duration (very slightly longer). This duration (1/250s duration for a 18000s shutterspeed) being closer and benefiting proportionately greater from the peak output (at the beginning of the exposure) AND in use is being combined with wider apertures.. this is where the top end 1/8000s advantage comes from.

The Quantums and Lumedynes have flash durations of around 1/350s at full output. Metz flash units have durations of around 1/250s. Their performance has always been good for this purpose, but I've never really explored them in detail.

studio460 · June 22, 2011

Well, "beating the ambient," isn't easy! Here, I've got a 1,000 Watt-second strobe at full-power, bounced into a 60" silver umbrella only about six feet from the subject. A Nikon SB-600 (no modifier) was dialed-in via TTL using an SU-800/MiniTT1/FlexTT5, placed at about six feet to the left of camera for a backlight:

<img src="http://studio460.com/images/x6181.jpg" alt="" /> Nikon D3s; AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.4G; ISO 100; 1/8,000 @ f1.4

Taken today, the day of the summer solstice, it's only about 5:30 PM PST at the time this was shot, so it was in full daylight (although, there was also a fair amount of cloud cover). I'm going to wait until twilight and try to shoot more tests. I have not yet used the PocketWizard applet to "optimize" the curtain timing of the D3s. Will attempt that now.

studio460 · June 22, 2011

Ian said:

I continually tell people that they need to try out their kit to see what it does . . .

</blockquote>

Thanks again for providing all that information. Yes, I'm eagerly "trying out my kit to see what it does." Although, I'm still not precisely sure what I'm getting, how I'm getting it, and how much I'm losing.

. . . as (apparently) this doesn't work with fast duration flashes - yet it works fine with Speedlights up to around 1/800 - 1/1000s as I recall even with cheap radios, and without the associated FP/HSS output penalty.

</blockquote>

Interesting. So, do you think perhaps, the 1/850th flash duration of my Speedotron Force 10 is still "under the wire?" As I said, I'm planning to get some Dynalight Uni400JRs to hopefully waste somewhat less flash power by exploiting its slightly longer, 1/675th-of-a-second, full-power flash duration (and again, I'll only likely ever use the Dynalite at nothing but full-power, since its flash duration decreases significantly over its decreased power range).

studio460 · June 22, 2011

Okay, I finally RTFM! I then ran the PocketWizard utility on the MiniTT1, and reset a couple of the firmware settings:

1. I had to check the box under the "sync" tab to engage, "High Speed Sync (HSS/FP) Disable Mode," on the MiniTT1. The default condition is unchecked. The FlexTT5s do not need to be programmed to use HyperSync.

2. I set the HyperSync offset value to its minimum value below zero, -2300.

I now realize that previously, I was unknowingly using PocketWizards' version of FP/HSS, not HyperSync. I just shot some full-frame tests of a white silk, with various offset values applied to the MiniTT1, and found that I got the highest bar-free sync shutter speed on my D3s at about 1/2,000th by setting the offset value in the PocketWizard utility to -2300. There's probably a critical difference between the Force 10's 1/850th flash duration, and the Dynalite Uni's 1/675th, since the previously mentioned photographer [<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.lebryk.com/category/pocket-wizard/" target="_blank">http://www.lebryk.com/category/pocket-wizard/</a>] was able to achieve bar-free images approaching 1/8,000th, using his D3s and a Dynalite Uni400JR. At 1/8,000th, I believe the photographer stated that he incurred about a 7% lower-frame portion of black bar, which he simply cropped out to gain the higher sync speed.

ian_casement · June 23, 2011

Interesting. So, do you think perhaps, the 1/850th flash duration of my Speedotron Force 10 is still "under the wire?"

</blockquote>

Tecchnically speaking, no. From a practical aspect, it's possible. You've proved that it works already.

I'm still not precisely sure what I'm getting, how I'm getting it, and how much I'm losing.

</blockquote>

You can find out by comparing with your equipment against results obtained at 1/250s and seeing what changes occur as you change the offset value. In order to see the graduation and tail effect you need to shoot a plain sample.

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Which monolights Hypersync to 1/8000th w/Nikon D3s + MiniTT1/FlexTT5 set-up?

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