film fogging once drying

[michael_b9]

<p>I've been searching the forum extensively but couldn't find a post for this specific problem, which is:<br>

After processing my 2 rolls of film they looks nice and clear but as they dry they turn foggy/grey and thus loose contrast.</p>

<p>I use the 'new' washing technique as approved by Ilford.<br>

5 shakes in warm water, 10 shakes in warm water, 15 shakes in warm water.<br>

Then 1 min in cold with wetting agent.<br>

I turn the tank on its head and back and call that 1 shake, which means that I double it - might that be the problem? Also, the 'warm' is very unscientific on not measured. That's how we learnt it at college...</p>

<p>Another thing that I found disconcerting during developement:<br>

The developer had a purple tint when I discarded it. </p>

<p>Can I rectify the problem? Perhaps re-fix it and wash again? <br>

Any thoughts, would be greatly appreciated.</p>

<p> </p>

[rick_jones5]

<p>I would look carefully at your fixing stage. You can certainly try to re-fix but first prepare a new FRESH fixing bath and use it with agitation in processing future rolls. Bet that will solve your problem. As to your washing technique reread <a href="http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/200629163442455.pdf">this</a> (page 10 of 11). Ilford suggests 5-10-20 not with warm water but with water the same temperature as your developing solution. I don't see how the warm water wash could cause your fogging problem but it seems like something you should correct. I use a wash aide after fixing. Much of the purple disappears at that stage with any remaining tint gone after a full wash.</p>

[john_shriver]

<p>Also, what fixer are you using? The Ilford fast wash method is ONLY acceptable with a non-hardening fixer. For instance, Ilford Rapid Fixer or Hypam Fixer is OK. Kodak's powdered fixer, or Kodafix liquid fixer, are NOT OK. <br>

The purple tint in developer or fixer goes away, it's just from the sensitizing dyes that were in the film, they decompose quite quickly, particularly when exposed to light.</p>

[robert_meyer3]

<p>I've only had this problem once. A friend came to me and asked me to develop 6 rolls of B&W film that had been shot about 50 years ago, put in a drawer, and left undeveloped. I tried various developers to minimize fog, but they all came out foggy to some extent. However, when I hung them up to dry I thought they were all printable. Life got busy and I didn't get back to them for about a week. When I looked the negatives were all completely fogged, no sign of the originally observable images. I posted here about that once before and was told that it was an indication that my fixer was old and gone bad. I don't think so, I think I used freshly-mixed Kodak Fixer. At any rate, let me further say that I got acceptable (barely) prints from all of the negatives. I used my point source head to get enough light through the fog, and used the highest contrast paper I had on hand (grade 4 or 5, I don't remember which) and found a tiny exposure window where I could get prints. Too long exposure and the paper went entirely black. Too short exposure and the paper was entirely white. However, there was a window where a print could be made showing the image that was there before the fog overlaid it. I was surprised by this result, but it's true.</p>

[john_wiegerink1]

<p>If your films are looking really good/crisp/clear when it comes out of the wetting agent and then dries down dull it might not be true fog you are seeing. If your negatives are fogged from bad fixer I would thing it would show up a little sooner, but I could be wrong. I had something like this happen when I first started developing film and was advised to not reuse my fixer from a new batch and see if that helped. It didn't! What i was doing was something that is a common trait for me. Bigger is better, more is even better yet. I read the Kodak Photo Flo sheet in Kodak's index book and figured if one drop of Photo Flo is good then three or four or more should be better and shouldn't hurt anything at all. An old timer caught what I was doing and put me on the straight and narrow. I now use even less wetting agent than recommended by a long shot and my negs are just fine. Too much wetting agent was actually leaving a dull film that made the negatives look dull and darker than they really were. Might be something for you to look into, but I'm not guaranteeing anything. JohnW</p>

[Aoresteen]

<p>Look at the edge numbers. If they are faded or gone it's bad fixer.</p>

<p>If the image is fogged or faded but the edge numbers are clear & sharp it could be a number of things.</p>

[chris_waller]

<p>The Ilford Method of washing is 5, 10 and 20 inversions. (I actually give an extra 40, just to be certain.) The water should be 15-20 degrees C. However, that isn't the source of the problem. Negatives do darken as they dry but I think that your problem is insufficient fixing. I use two-bath fixing. There are several threads in this BB on the subject. It ensures complete fixing. In the interim, try refixing with fresh fixer.<br>

The purple tint in your developer is due to the antihalation and sensitising dyes in the film - it's nothing to worry about.</p>

[thirteenthumbs]

<p>I picked up some photo stuff off craigs list free posting a wile back. One of the bulk film loaders had film in it and was marked 3/84 on the outside. A clip test showed it to be TriX. After some extermination I found the EI to be 200 and processed in HC110 dilution H at 65⁰F gave the best results. The negatives looked good wet but dried to be very fogged. Scanning resulted in a very narrow spike in the central section of levels in photoshop, fresh film gives a full spectrum scanned the same way.<br>

Is your film fresh or very old?</p>

[michael_b9]

<p>Thanks for all your replies!<br>

Below the answers to questions from above.<br>

I used fresh Fuji Neopan 1600.<br>

I use Ilford Rapid Fix so Fast Wash Method is ok but it wasn't fresh mix so will re-fix it with a fresh mix and will read up on the 2 bath fixing. <br>

I agitate for 10 seconds by rotating and fix for 5 mins.<br>

Re washing agent, thanks for the tip of not overdoing it but on this instance I actually forgot to add it alltogether...<br>

The edge numbers are clear and sharp...</p>

 

[Alan Marcus]

<p>Likely nothing is wrong. It is desirable to make the film<br />base of 35mm gray and not clear like the larger film formats. The gray base<br />reduces light piping. Since 35mm film is rolled in the cassette without backing<br />paper, there is always a danger that should the film received an unwanted spatter<br />of light, the light will travel within and do damage. The gray base affords<br />some protection reducing the number of frames that will be harmed.</p>

<p>Additionally, since 35mm is not spooled with back paper, if<br />the exposing light is strong, some light energy can transverse the film hit the<br />pressure plate at the rear of the camera and reflect backward expiring the film<br />from the rear. The result is an halation, a secondary and unwanted exposure. We<br />see these when photographing gems or when the subject has surfaces like glass<br />or chrome that reflect tons of light.<br>

<br />The light sensitive silver crystals that make up film are<br />naturally only sensitive to the shorter more energetic light rays, these are blue,<br />violet or ultra violet. To cause the film to become sensitive to green light (orthochromatic)<br />the crystals are dyed to cause them to absorb green light. Panchromatic film is<br />sensitive to red - green - and blue an action caused by the inclusion of a collection<br />of dyes. These dyes are water dissolved in the waters of the developer. Used developers<br /> takes on color by dissolving the dyes. <br>

<br />If your film is truly fogging upon drying, it will be due to<br />improper fixing. It is wise to test your fixer by immersing a piece of the film's<br />tongue in the fixer , in the light. Time how long it takes for the film to clear<br />(it changes from opaque to transparent). Double this time for a safe, fix time.<br>

I do not like your wash procedure. I like a 10 minute or<br />more wash in running water. I do not like the fact that you rinse in warm<br />water, a temperature change can cause reticulation whereby the image looks like<br />shattered glass. A few degrees different, one solution to the next can produce incept reticulation with is often mistaken<br />as grain. </p>

[janne_moren]

I used to do 5-6 minutes of fixing, based on doubling the clearing time that Alan mentions above, but had this kind of problem now and again. Rarely with HP5, but much more often with Delta films and with Neopan 400. Now I always do 10 minutes and I check my fixer frequently, and the problem seems to be gone. I do the Ilford wash and have never had a problem with that.

 

I'd try refixing the negatives if I were you. You can try with just one piece at first - fix for ten minutes, then wash and dry. If it cleared up, then do the rest.

[craig_shearman1]

<p>Fixing issues aside, I am very dubious about this new washington technique from Ilford. Who am I to argue with them, but I have always washed for either five minutes after using a hypo clearing agent, or 20 minutes without. And I usually dump and refill repeatedly during the first couple of minutes. I can't imagine 20 shakes of the tank being effective at washing away the fixer. Just my two cents.</p>

[cj8281]

<p>Someone please correct me if I am wrong here. My thinking on Ilford's washing method is this, the film absorbs the fixer as it does the developer. When you do the initial 10 inversion wash after fix, you are moving the water around so that the film always is getting fresh water next to the film. The fixer begins to come out of the film and begins to become dilute in the wash water. When you change out the water, the fresh wash begins to draw more of the fixer out of the film, the water begins to displace the fixer in the film. By changing the water and doing the inversions you are actively moving the water around, some commercial washers use swirling water to help clear the fixer from the film. When fixer comes out of the film, it goes into solution, it does not pool at the bottom of the container.</p>

[michael_b9]

<p>Thank you all for some very valuable learning. Here's what I've done.<br>

I re-fixed a snippet of the film in fresh fix properly timed and all that - it didn't make a difference unfortunately. What I come to conclude is that as Alan suggests, unfortunately (in my case) 35mm film is more grey than clear and it seems my negatives are on the under-exposed side of things and thus to my eye the fading contrast (when drying) appears magnified. Perhaps it is indeed reticulation from warm water.<br>

The exposures are close up's of moon reflections in water and light is not abundant. Perhaps I was pushing my luck and should have been pushing the film! <br>

On the subject of the different washing methods, I like the inversion method as it saves water but I'll definitely watch the temperature in future.</p>

[thirteenthumbs]

<p><a href="http://www.largeformatphotography.info/unicolor/ilfwash.pdf">http://www.largeformatphotography.info/unicolor/ilfwash.pdf</a></p>