Which medium format camera should I buy?

[sfcole]

<p>I don't normally recommend a Mamiya 6/7 because they're expensive and not for everyone. However, for the OP's stated purpose--stealthily taking photos in low light--they're almost perfect. The 6 is very compact and light, and easy to focus in low light. This is an example of Ilford Delta Pro 3200 shot at 1600. If color and/or a longer roll is needed, Portra 800 in 220 length could easily be pushed a stop.</p><div></div>

[Poravich]

<p>Dear Emily,<br>

I currently have several Rolleiflex. They are good for street and also fine art, but not perfectly suitable for wide-angle object. in other words, they are not a system camera. Hassy make this job better but you'd get only 6x6 but pay your $ more than you'd expect as a student. There is an alternative!<br>

last year, I sold my hassy for a Summicron 90f2.0. hoping that Leica M will be my better system on a travel. That is my wrong idea! and it was not the end of my purchase. Not until have I found the independable Mamiya Super23, I did stop my landsape gear. What you mostly need on quick travel for fine art photography is NOT a SLR system, but the rangefinder or viewcamera or even a good MF folder. In reality, f1,4-f2,8 shall not provide you a good landscape. Therefore, no need to consider SLR for your scheme. You'd better consider leaf shutter which'd render vibration free between 1/8 - 1/60 while MF SLR can not deal with this shortcoming. You may only need a monopod at your evening scenic.<br>

Mamiya Super23 or the Press system has its 100f2,8 as its best normal lenses and 50f6,3 Biogon clone of extrawide. (24mm eqiv to 135 mm perhaps) It had a freshnel ground glass for your better composing, plus a shift-and-tilt swing back which helps you make your fine art more pleasable. The system shall not cost you much $.<br>

For many year of my photography, I switch myself from SLR to carry a leaf shutter camera (if not of my bw works with M3). It is the leaf shutter- the same craftmanship you'd find in large format. After I end this thread, I will walk across the street to bring my newcoming 65f6,3 after sending it a week for overhaul. The 6x9 will be my next choice instead of 6x6 of the great Rollei.<br>

Happy shooting!<br>

Poravich</p>

[chris_waller]

<p>If you want a lightweight MF camera which won't break the bank then I'd suggest you look out for a Yashica 124 TLR. Alternatively, you could try to find something like an old Ilford Sporti 6 - this was a rangefinder camera and easier to handle than a TLR - or something similar.</p>

[zweeko]

<p>if i was going to cover such an event, i would take two olympus trip 35 cameras, a couple of small flashguns, and Maybe my fuji gw690iii [only eight 6x9cm negs on a roll of 120, though!] - i would leave the hasselblad at home. the last thing i'd consider taking would be an old, twin-lens reflex [rollei, or otherwise!] - as you don't yet have a m/f-camera, i'd second the mamiya 6/7; certainly over the pentax 67. if you don't want to use flash, forget everything but an old, 35mm slr - or rangefinder - with At Least a f/1.4 lens! good luck! http://www.flickr.com/photos/j12t/</p>

[mark_tate]

<p>For the shooting at rave stuff a MF film camera would probably be the worst choice .</p>

<p>I am assuming you really wish to get into the gritty side of your subject and I am assuming also that there are a lot of people dancing and it is moderately dark .</p>

<p>You really don't want to be changing MF film and film backs in those conditions ,you don't get that many shots on a roll so you will also have to carry a lot of film and a few film backs and unless you are very very familiar with your camera you will wast a lot of film and that gets very expensive.</p>

<p>If you must use film get a 35mm with the fastest lens you can afford<br>

Better still use digital ( Hey I am a film user but digital has its place and this is one )</p>

<p>On the other hand some shots taken with a 6x6 hasselblad or bronica would look fantastic</p>

[r_dolfs_putni__1]

<p>It may be because of my humble experience with film, but still it seems to me that low light work should be done almost only via digital. Prefferably fullframe. An exception must be really long exposure work because digital sensors tend to get hot and stuff. If someone would tell me to do a documental low light work with my 6X6cm I would call him a sadist. Film mostly shines when used in calm circumstances when time is not of an essence. As others said- fine art, landscape and portrait work. The Nikon D3s on the other hand allows high frame rates, fast AF and quite usable ISO 12800 plus it shows right away if the exposure or focus had gone wrong. In addition you can have ultra fast fixed lenses and reasonably fast zooms from 14-200mm. The flash work also is more fluent and easy.</p>

<p>My advise would be to go and try various systems before the d-day cometh. Maybe I am wrong and the is light for the MF in a dark dancehall.</p>

[emily_jayne_griffin]

<p>Awww thanks everyone for your responses! Their all really helpful, and have definately given me a lot to think about. I have from now until next april to work on this project, but these events only happen on saturday nights so it does limit me slightly.</p>

<p>I already have an old 35mm found in my Grampy's attic, its a Pentax MV1. Could I look at getting a fast lens for that camera and take that and my DSLR and experiment with both, until I decide which works best for me? </p>

<p>Or just look into getting a decent, fast, wide angled lens for my DSLR?</p>

[jose_angel]

<p>Emily, there is a photographer I like a lot,<strong> Alberto Garcìa-Alix</strong>, that used to work under a "similar environment" at the eighties, using amongst others, medium format cameras (I have seen him with a Hasselblad) and b&w film materials.<br /> <br /> His exhibitions are wonderful, the ones I have visited shown silver based prints of <em>outstanding</em> quality. Not in vain, he is a spanish national award in photography.</p>

<p>Sadly, I don`t find a dedicated website, nor a good web gallery with all that work; the most I can offer are this two videos and another recopilation page with a mix of his well-known softest photos, but there isn`t all that outstanding work that show the darkest side (which is certainly very dark). Drugs, alcohol, dangerous night life, etc.</p>

<p>BTW, despite of the look he sometimes likes to offer, he is a very, very nice guy.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKhLPrWjN-I&feature=fvw">Video 1</a>, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8ltItsh23M">video 2</a>, <a href="http://www.google.es/images?q=alberto+garcia+alix&um=1&hl=es&client=safari&rls=en&tbs=isch:1&sa=N&start=0&ndsp=18">recopilation page</a>. If you`re patient enough maybe you could find some inspiration on him. Check that his style is definitely more paused, more "feeded" than "candid". The use of bigger cameras ask for it.</p>

[ben_ros]

<p>Hi Emily,<br>

Definitely the best camera for these kind of subjects is the Nikon D700 imo. I don't know your budget but this performs best in high ISO and might be affordable 2nd hand. That, combined with a fast short lens.<br>

BTW, I am a film shooter too, using Mamiya 6. A great camera for these subjects but lenses are not fast. With a high sensitive 220 film it will work great. But it's also a bit expensive.<br>

Greetz.</p>

[xxloverxx]

<p>Illegal rave?<br>

Have you considered using an infrared flash with IR film? Read about it somewhere…I think it was linked on some forum to a page on Google Books, to a magazine, where Weegee gave a few tips on how he got his photos.<br>

Turns out he used an IR flash (emits a barely-visible blink of light) with IR film — he could make photos in a cinema during a movie.<br>

I'd use that along with a leaf shutter (flash sync at all speeds) rangefinder (light & small) or, if your flash is bright enough, a scale focus camera like a Rollei 35 (also leaf shutter). The Rollei 35's literally small enough to hide in your hand or slip in a small pocket, so if everything goes wrong, drop the flash, hide the camera and run for it.</p>

<p>Alternatively bring a really bright (normal) flash to temporarily distract subjects if you get chased…</p>

<p>I would definitely not recommend going to an illegal event with a camera much bigger than your hand.</p>

[gabor_szabo3]

<p>Suggesting the use of a Rolleiflex might be your tutor's way of challenging you. <br>

I'm all for it, Emily. Limiting yourself to all of the "disadvantages" of a TLR should make you think a little more about what you can and cannot accomplish with photography in a given situation. <br>

Personally, I'd love to take my 3.5E Planar R'flex to a rave. Some Tri-X ( @ 400 and pushed to 1600 in Accufine, chrome film for cross-processing and a Sunpak 333 on a long spiral pc cord stuck in my pocket and I'm good to go. I'd concentrate on getting intimate portraits of candy-flippers , the dj unloading his/her gear in a dark alley, over-the-head crown shots,..... you get the point.<br>

If you succeed, you can probably do well on a reportage of a busy hospital's trauma center with a pinhole camera.<br>

Get some inspiration from the book <em>Bande à part : New York Underground 60’s 70’s 80's</em></p>

 

[thomas_sullivan]

<p>The Pentax MV-1 is automatic exposure all the time. Meaning, there is no manual exposure control. Now you can fake it out by setting the ASA (ISO) to compensate, but even a seasoned pro can get confused by doing this. I mention this because in AUTO exposure mode your camera is going to get fooled by all the dark areas in night shots......and end up overexposing the image. Some may argue with me on this....but i personally wouldn't want to shoot night scenes with a totally automatic camera. I could do it....but I wouldn't want to have to.</p>

<p>The medium format suggestion from your tutor was probably so you could get extreme enlargements from the pics.....that's just a guess. As others have stated, it is not the best choice in todays world. A DSLR is....and in my opinion, a full frame DSLR would be the best choice. Most of the latest generation full frame DSLRs match or come very close to Medium Format quality. Albiet, they are not cheap.</p>

<p>The next best would be a 35mm film slr.....as exhaustively stated above.</p>

<p>Then would come Medium Format. Which variety? As someone else stated, the Mamiya 645 (probably the Pro TL) with the 80mm f/1.9 would be ideal. However, one does not live by one lens alone, so you would have to choose lenses that had a max ap of f/2.8 to stay in the low light arena. Regardless of focal length. Unless, of course, you push all your film....which you will probably be doing even with f/2.8. But, luckily, Medium Format film pushed still looks great (compared to 35mm film pushed).....unless of course, you really really like grain......so, even a f/3.5 lens would work with pushed film.....I would not go with a slower lens than that though. Pushed B&W is pretty cheap these days....most labs don't even charge for the push.....but color pushed is a whole other story. The grain gets huge, the colors shift, and labs tend to charge extra for a color push (if they do it at all).</p>

<p>Would I use the Mamiya 645 in a rave situation?.....yep.....kinda done it at a small club rock scene. Changing the film all the time was a pain in the ass tho.....and I had film inserts.....just plop the exposed insert out and plop the new one in....sounds easy, but under pressure to get back to shooting.....Murphy's Law sets in and nothing goes right. BUT, it was still better than having to reload film into a non insert or non changeble back MF cam....like a TLR.</p>

[mike_whalen]

<p>Save your money. Your Canon shots on Flikr look just fine (quality wise). Maybe get a fast prime lens like the inexpensive 50mm/f1.8. MF film will have too many practical drawbacks for this kind of shooting. Capturing the right moment is more important than slight improvements in print quality. Go for more close-in facial expression portraits than landscapes.</p>

[mervyn_wilmington]

<p>If your funds cannot run to a Rolleiflex tlr, then there are clear problems in buying some of the suggested cameras/lenses. I don't think I'd use medium format as a primary format for this purpose anyway.</p>

<p>There are some fine 35mm film cameras out there at very reasonable prices.</p>

<p>I would go for a Nikon F90x - a very good one at no more than £100. A standard 50mm f1.8 af lens for £70. Where circumstances permitted, an SB28 flash at £70.</p>

<p>Some fast black and white and colour film, and good results just about guaranteed.</p>

[emily_jayne_griffin]

<p>My project is split into three parts:<br>

a dissertation exploring how subcultures and minorities have been represented and portrayed within documentary photography.<br>

A negotiated study exploring and experimenting with the best possible ways to capture raves. So exploring with different types of cameras will be important, however, I do not want to invest in a medium format camera if it will not aloow me to produce a series of succesful shots. I am however, interested in experimenting with 35mm if this will be more successful? If anyone could recommend a 35mm camera that would be good for my project that would be much appreciated. I will also be using my digital SLR. I am going to be experimenting with moving image aswel and making a small video documentary for pure experimentation.<br>

My final major project will be exploring rave culture with the medium I found worked best during the exploratory stage. So this part of the project will not only feature shots from the raves themselves, but also interviews and portraits of people who go and organise the parties and location shots of where raves happen, accompanied with the news paper report. My final piece is likely to be a book and a series of prints for exhibition. <br>

Sooo, to sum up, experimenting with 35mm and digital seem the way to go...so...any advice on 35mm cameras??</p>

<p>:]</p>

<p>All this help is much appreciated!!</p>

[mervyn_wilmington]

<p>I've just given my advice on a 35mm film camera, but I'd be interested to read the views of other members. Mine was based on "horses for courses", top quality equipment, and high value for money.</p>

[BernardMiller]

Hi, Emily! As someone who regularly shoots on the London club scene, I can tell you that shooting medium format in that

environment...well, that way madness lies! But it can be done.

 

I once attempted it with a Fuji 6x9 rangefinder with a flash in the hot shoe, when I started thinking I was pretty good.

Disaster. I have had better success using a Mamiya TLR and two other techniques:

 

(1) I used a 65 mm lens and a flash on a Stroboframe bracket. The wider lens also gave me a bit extra depth of field. I set

the lens to focus on about six feet, and then depended on being the right distance away when I fired. I got some decent

stuff that way.

 

(2) I've also had success bolting a monolight up high somewhere and using one of those cheap Hong Kong radio

transmitters off eBay to trigger it. Lights up the whole place, and if you drag the shutter (use a slow shutter speed) you can

catch some of the effects lighting.

 

Get on Facebook/Flickr and look up Robin Bharaj. He has done some amazing work documenting London grime raves

using a Hasselblad, a hand-held flash, and shooting Provia 100. He's a wizard - I'd never dare to try such a thing - and

he's a very nice fellow. I'm sure he could offer you lots of practical advice.

[emily_jayne_griffin]

<p>Thanks very much! I'll def check him out and drop him an email maybe! :]</p>

[john_kwok]

<p>Emily -<br>

<br />Based on what you've described, you'll need a 35mm rangefinder camera. I agree with others in recommending a Leica M rangefinder camera, but there are cheaper alternatives such as the Zeiss Ikon M-mount rangefinder and the Voigtlander Bessa M-mount rangefinders. You could get more than acceptable results using one of the M-mount rangefinders and Voigtlander lenses (The latest versions in Leica screw and M mounts). I personally like the Zeiss M-mount lenses (virtually all of which are made at the same Cosina factory as the current Voigtlander cameras and lenses, but under stringent Zeiss quality control), but they will also be expensive.<br>

<br />Alternatively, as a much cheaper route, may I suggest acquiring a Contax G2 or G1 (which has been modified to use the 35mm Biogon) autofocus rangefinder camera? You wouldn't go wrong with either one, especially if you acquire a kit that would include a 50mm Planar and a 28mm Biogon. The 28mm Biogon has long been one of my favorite lenses. Here's some recent work I did last month which included using a Contax electronic flash:<br>

<br /><a href="http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=58196&id=1045985586&l=30117a1a2e" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=58196&id=1045985586&l=30117a1a2e</a></p>

<p>Anyway, I do wish you much luck.<br>

<br />Regards,</p>

<p>John</p>

[mervyn_wilmington]

<p>Emily - you might help by indicating just how much cash you have available. What you have said so far suggests not too much. Some suggestions for equipment may be well out of your price range, especially in the UK. My suggestion had cash limits but quality equipment much in mind.</p>

[marc_batters]

<p>Emily, as mentioned by so many here, about the best MF camera for you would be something like the Mamiya 6 or 7, given the close-in, shoot from the hip style required for this project. I shoot MF, and for this type of shooting, a MF camera would be my last choice in this situation.</p>

<p>Since you do state that funds may limit your choice in gear, (..."Rolleiflex...a little out of my price range"), I wouldn't want to take expensive gear into this environment anyway, and the less gear, the better.</p>

<p>I think I would approach this first, by looking at affordable lenses suited to this situation, then find a body to work with those lenses, [film or digital]. One fast prime, short and sweet, and then one of the faster zooms in your price range. That's it, (and a flash).</p>

<p>There are many good used 35mm cameras and lenses on the market now, for bargain prices. And, finding one of those, say in an EOS mount, may be a good path, as you could take most of those lenses forward to an EOS digital body later. I will let those more experienced with [film body to digital body] lens compatibility, to expand on this subject.</p>

<p>I really wouldn't entertain the thought of bringing anything expensive into this environment, So, if you go the used equipment route, look for full function, but accept a few normally undesired cosmetic issues. The Rave scene, (as I remember it) is hot, fast, and sometimes downright dirty. It could just be that you, and your gear, will be more accepted if it too, looks a bit dirty and battle worn. (Your gear, that is.... not you)!</p>

[bobby_r1]

<p>Great subject matter!<br>

Well medium format will be difficult but not impossible. A TLR is a poor choice as they are not designed for quick handling or loading. A rangefinder or SLR would be better. 645 would give you more shots and be easier to handle than 6x6 or 6x7.<br>

A Bronica ETR series SLR with a wide angle lense would be good as you could load up several backs which would make reloading easier. A eye level viewfinder and a speedgrip would make it easily handholdable. <a href="http://www.tamron.com/bronica/prod/etrsi.asp">http://www.tamron.com/bronica/prod/etrsi.asp</a><br>

Or<br>

A Bronica (or Fuji or similar) 645 rangefinder would be lighter and easier to handhold, but maybe pricier and you would not have quick change backs. <a href="http://www.tamron.com/bronica/prod/rf645.asp">http://www.tamron.com/bronica/prod/rf645.asp</a> <br>

<a href="http://www.dantestella.com/technical/ga645.html">http://www.dantestella.com/technical/ga645.html</a><br>

Personally I wouldn't use medium format, due to the nature of the locations. I would go with a cheap battered 35mm SLR a 35mm or 28mm and a cheap manual flash. I have often shot at friends house parties with an OM4, 35mm lense and a 3rd party flash. Shooting available light at a rave is going to be tough (judging from your flickr) so I wouldn't reject using flash without trying it. I got pretty good results just from setting the flash to a prefixed distance and ISO and using pre-set focusing. I usually use Black and White film (HP5) and love the results. If it was me I would try out a borrowed medium format kit and a 35mm SLR (with/without flash) and try black and white versus colour. This way you can see what you prefer both in terms of handling and for the finished result.<br>

Also have a look at Derek Ridgers work shooting the London club scene. I seem to remember that he shot with an Nikon FM2 (?), a wide angle lense and a homemade ringflash.</p>

 

[mjferron]

<p>A simple request about a Rolleiflex has led to every suggestion under the sun. I suggest a Rolleicord. Almost as nice as a flex and one can be had in decent shape with the Xenar lens for a few hundred dollars. They take wonderful photos.</p>

[steve_bellayr]

<p>Unless I am mistaken these Rave scenes occur at night under extremely low light conditions. You need a camera that is light with a bright viewfinder and very fast lens and fast film. Since you can not use daylight film your choice is flash or high speed B&W. I'd look at Rock Concert & Jazz photos taken indoors to get an idea of what the photos will look like. If you are shooting film I'd use ISO 400, 1600, or even 3200 (3200 expires exactly on the date indicated...no leeway). If shooting 400 you can go up to 2 stops negative and still get a readable image. You need an f2 lens or even f1.4 (1.5). My recommendation is an inexpensive rangefinder with a manual over ride. If it is very dark with just high lights set the shutter at 60 (maybe 125) (30 if you have a soft release and are comfortable) consider how fast people are moving and adjust for that. Set aperture at f2. The fastest MF is f2.8. That is fairly slow.</p>

[emily_jayne_griffin]

<p>As I'm a student, I do have a very limited budget of about £300 maximum. <br>

So I'm not sure if there is much I can do with my budget to be honest? I do have an old, basic 35mm camera, so may have to settle for simply buying a faster lens for it? </p>