at the risk of sounding conceited...when to charge?

[kira_greene]

<p>I am an amateur photographer. I have read books, and haunted online forums to learn about photography. I don't think I'm the most talented or gifted photographer, but I'm definitely not at the bottom of the barrel either.</p>

<p>More and more of my friends and family have been asking me to take photographs for them. Some friends were selling their house and didn't like the realtor's photos. (They then sold the house in under a week, for asking price - not just one, but two offers!) Another asked me to do photos of a youth conference, to be used for a local newspaper (story never ran) and the group website, several have asked me to do family portraits, and still another asked me to do her wedding. Some of my husband's colleagues are wondering if I would take photographs for their events.</p>

<p>No one has paid me, and no one has offered to pay me. I'm sure that my husband's colleagues will, since it's actually on the company dime, but since that hasn't happened yet, I don't count it.</p>

<p>I do the very best I can with what I have, which is not even full frame, and I shoot RAW, in order to get more out of post processing. My laptop isn't the fastest, so even simple editing takes some time. Of course, there is no way for them to know about that, and I don't blame them for it, and even if I had a newer laptop, it would still take time, BUT...when do I stop giving away my work? Some of my stuff has looked as good as images displayed on professional websites. I think I deserve a little more than "thanks." for that.</p>

<p>How do I charge people I know? Or, rather, how do I make it (very politely and nicely) known that I'm not free? Of course, I don't even know what I would charge at this point, but that's something else entirely.</p>

<p>I don't want to be one of those "Look I have a clever business name and a blog with an about me page where I ramble about how I've always loved photography, and a logo so I am a professional" photographers. What I mean is, I don't want to jump into business to show people I deserve to get paid for my work. I don't mind being the girl with a camera, but I'm getting a little tired of doing it all for FREE. It is a lot of work, and while it's enjoyable...I'd like to be compensated - especially if I am going to be the "photographer on record". And, if that happens enough then maybe I'll quit grad school and start a blog. (Just kidding.)</p>

<p>I don't mean to whine...if I am, tell me to go find some vintage cheese to go with it. :) Oh, and I said no to the wedding...I don't want to take away from the wedding photographers in the area. </p>

<p>Also, I wasn't sure if this was the right forum to post this in? If I guessed incorrectly, I do apologize.</p>

[Charles_Webster]

<p>No one will ever offer to pay. It is up to you to say "I charge for this"</p>

<p>But I also believe you should not practice on paying customers. The minute you start charging, you become a pro, so you have to act like one, and deliver like one.</p>

<p>So, if you are completely confident you can deliver professional results, simply say "I charge $xx for that, and stick to your guns. There are times when you want to shoot for your portfolio, in those cases arrange a trade for pictures deal.</p>

<p>Buy and read Frank Harrington's book "Best Business Practices for Photographers" and the ASMP book "Professional Business Practices for Photographers" to learn how a photography business should be run.</p>

<p>One last word of advice: always have a written contract that specifies what you will deliver, and how much you will be paid, and when. Never work without a contract.</p>

<p><Chas></p>

[MichaelChang]

<p>That's a tough one, Kira. Expectations begin as soon as money changes hand, so the problem is meeting their expectation.</p>

<p>Here's what I would do to start until one is sufficiently confident with ones work: Pay me what you think is fair (or not at all) given the quality of work I deliver. This will at least give you a sense of market perception of your worth, and while I think most people are basically fair in their judgement, do be prepared to be under-valued. </p>

<p>Charles' suggestions is excellent once you're ready to go pro.</p>

[JDMvW]

<p>Charles' answer is a very nice one. Should be enshrined in a version with gold lettering for future linking on this site.</p>

[ejchem101]

<p>Kira, I find myself in the exact place as you. </p>

<p>You expressed it much better than I could have myself. A couple of things to think about. #1, think about getting a desktop, even if it is just for editing. They are cheap ($300 ish) and if you get a good one will drastically increase your editing speed. Not to mention they are much easier to fix and/or upgrade for the long run.</p>

<p>#2. Who is your client? In my opinion I will never charge my family / friends... even if I was a pro, that is just the way my family is. I recently took photos for our local high school, I was there to learn and practice covering an event (prom). I then offered to make CD's that could be used as a school fundraiser. If I felt that I was ready to go pro... maybe I would have charged the school, but as this was my first event, I dont see myself charging now, or even the 2nd or 3rd time. I like to help out where I can.</p>

<p>#3. What is your motive? Is it so that you can make money? If you're planning on making a lot of money don't forget that you would be a buisness. Any money under the table is technically illegal since you aren't paying income tax on it.</p>

<p>All of these things put together made it clear to myself that I will have a lot more fun if I take pictures for the heck of it. If someone feels obliged to pay me, then I would say thank you and move on from there, but if you're at the same place as me, remember that right now photography is your hobby... are you sure you want to make it your profession?</p>

[jpo3136b]

<p>Send 'em an all-black JPEG for free and let 'em know that recording light is $125 an hour.</p>

<p>I make it known by telling people loudly and clearly, "I charge $125 an hour." Sometimes, if that's not clear enough, I add, "Plus expenses." Practice this in the mirror three times a day. Like, when you're done brushing your teeth in the morning or something. When you catch yourself saying this automatically, with confidence, in response to inquiries, then you know practice time is over.</p>

<p>The conceited version: "I'm so great that I charge $125 an hour."<br /> The rude version: [belch.] "I charge $125 an hour."<br /> The polite version: "Ma'am, I charge $125 an hour."<br /> The normal person version: "Great idea you have for a photo there. That'd be about $125 an hour."<br /> Presidential and distinguished dignitary version: "Mister President/Your Excellency, it's $125 an hour."<br /> Busted them stealing from you: "You bootlegging @#$%^& ! I bill $125 an hour for this! You owe me!"<br /> Yacht club, gourmet peer group version: "Dahh-ling, I just couldn't do it for under $125 an hour. We'd have a famine of beauty otherwise! A famine of beauty! Feed the beauty. Everything on the menu for beauty is $125 an hour."<br /> Elite publishing house version: "Renting the horses and carriage at Versailles will push the budget, but for myself I bill $125 an hour." <br /> High school portrait version: "You sure are an ugly kid! Turn your head to the side! Stop picking your nose! This is $125 an hour."</p>

<p>I know that sounds totally shameless and ridiculous. I assure you, the tax bills that have arrived in the past cleared up any confidence problems I had with telling people, "This is not free." I have, in practice, considered wearing a T-shirt which said, "Yes, I made that picture. No, it's not free." Sometimes that point is not clear to some people.</p>

<p>It'd be clear enough if you went to their business and helped yourself to some of their goodies which we might think were worthless. How much is this totally useless sales call report? Do you mind if I take that work from you, for free? I need a coaster. The scrap paper gives me something to put my muddy boots on when I come in from the field.</p>

<p>When the expenses get so high you say to yourself, "I cannot do this anymore unless those bozos chip in," then that's a sign it's time to start billing. Or, stop making photos in that way. Your choice. Nothing's free.</p>

<p>On average, I find this costs $125 an hour; or, a per-print of $30 per medium format print against the idea that I would have made those photos at a rate that's comparable to $125 an hour. Some charge more, some charge less; I find that for me, the price of tea in China on this is $125 an hour.</p>

<p>It's $125 an hour. </p>

[jpo3136b]

<p>They will bill you. <strong>Unless your hobby is bankruptcy,</strong> you will have to bill them back. It's $125 an hour.</p>

[jpo3136b]

<p>P.S. I find everyone wants free photos, or offers to provide me all kinds of help if I will pay them a thousand or two. I categorically decline almost all of that stuff. The reality is, I have not been able to do much of anything related to photography without generating some type of bill that I am responsible for. There's only so much we can pay out on our own before it's decision time. </p>

[john_h.1]

<p>This is one of those Dear Abby questions where photography is incidental but is not about photography itself. If people ask you to do things for free that you don't want to do for free then you need to get some backbone and simply decline. If you want to do it and be paid, you can advise that you perform such services in a business capacity now after spending so much time gaining the needed experience and that they can arrange to discuss a package with you if they are so inclined. Since you have caused yourself to have a reputation to perform free work, it will be difficult for many of these these people, psychologically, to value you as a professional to be paid compared to people who have that reputation from the get go. In other words, don't expect too much business coming in from there people.</p>

[kira_greene]

<p>Hello All,<br>

Thank you for your responses. :) <br>

Charles - I absolutely agree with what you said, and even though I don't want to start a business, I will still read the books you suggested because being well informed is always a good idea.</p>

<p>Michael - I thought of that. But, I'm not good about asking people to pay me for my services...which is why I know that being a businesswoman is not my career path. :) I had hoped that they would have simply offered, I mean even a $5 gift card to starbucks or something, you know? </p>

<p>Erik - It's not that I want to make money from family/friends...it's more of a frustration. It's hard to say no, because I want the best for my family/friends and if they ask me to take photos I am honored by the request...but these are events/sessions they would willingly pay someone else for...so why not pay me? Or at least send me a nice thank you! And, yes, money under the table is illegal, I know that. Any income at all would be claimed. Since there's none, I have nothing to claim - LOL! My motive is I like taking pictures, pure and simple. I don't go to these people, they come to me. When I go looking for a service, I expect to pay - even if it if from a family member. When they tell me don't worry about it, I don't (but I always always ALWAYS send a handwritten thank you note). Otherwise, I open the purse strings. :)</p>

<p>John O'Keefe-Odom - absolutely hilarious! You had me cracking up, but I did read between the lines. :)</p>

<p>John Henneberger - yeah....you're right. This isn't really a business question. It's more of a reaching out to others to see what they think/do in such situations. The wedding I declined was hard to say 'No' (and quite honestly, I think I offended her. I just told her I don't have the right equipment for a wedding, and I don't! I have a nikon D80 and my best zoom lens is a 5.6), simply because it was for family, and they asked me. But, I also know (from this site and my own life) that weddings can bring out some interesting events and photographers get caught in the cross hairs a lot. If I wasn't going to be paid for it, there was no way I was going to take that kind of possible drama. Since you're 100% correct, I have caused myself to have a reputation as free...I guess I'm going to have to say "no" more often! </p>

<p>I have enormous respect for those of you who have thriving photography businesses. Thank you again for your responses, I very much appreciate them. :)</p>

[bert_gamory]

<p>Kira,<br>

There's a phrase that may come in handy. You might have heard it. It goes something like this, "...I'm sorry, but I'll have to decline as I busy that day, handing with friends, spending time with my children (husband, boyfriend), just don't feel like lugging around the camera, don't have the time to do post processing, etc..."</p>

<p>Some years back I was shooting film on a Nikon EM. I'd take it out and get a few good pics and was actually asked about shooting two weddings (they didn't want to pay for a professional photographer). For me, it's just a hobby, and like was said before, when money changes hands, everything is different.</p>

<p>Sometimes you'll want to do it, then do so. If not then, to coin a phrase, "...just say no..."</p>

[Karim Ghantous]

<p>I'll shoot a few more weddings for free, but only because I don't have that much experience with them. And only if the couple aren't hiring a photographer anyway. (In case anyone is wondering, no, I won't consider advice to the contrary. If you don't like it, go tell the couples your concerns.)</p>

<p>$125/hr? Yikes, John! And in US$ no less! I thought $75 was the 'high end'. Guess I was mistaken. :-)</p>

[jpo3136b]

<p>Karim, for my fees, you know I stay out of the Leica forum because I don't want to end up in a conflict with my product endorsements. ;-)</p>