The Wonderful World of Color

clive_murray_white · January 11, 2010

The colour guru is Itten

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0471289280/etherarnewanduse">http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0471289280/etherarnewanduse</a>

I couldn't find a good helpful review but anything by Itten on Colour is worth a good look at if you haven't been there before, I mention this because we get so many bad colour pictures because people don't know anything about colour.

I guess the biggest area for people to get a handle on, re, colour, in photography is understanding the role that grey plays in the whole scheme of things as it changes colour according to what's next to it and how big an area it occupies.

One of the areas where colour really has a huge advantage over B&W is work requiring a narrow tonal range, in b+w say 3-4, out of a possible 10, grades of grey. Sure there have been some fabulous b+ws but they often struggle to overcome dullness. Where as in colour this is exactly the area where colour can really sizzle or push emotional buttons.

I think many of you know that I make marble heads as my main art and that instead of using the whitest marble I can get my hands on I often use quite highly coloured stone. I often get asked to do portraits, but usually manage to put the client off, mainly because I realised that a major component in "likeness" is the colour of hair, eyes, skin etc so even if the portrait is pretty accurate in terms of form, people will find it difficult to recognise the sitter. A bit of a problem when people are paying $s.

I think colour has become the default setting.

Julie, very good, but I would have liked a film/TV style parental guidance warning. I think you answered Phylo's question.

All the best Clive

jtk · January 11, 2010

"In art it's never really mattered what the artist does to achieve their ends, its the end that counts. " - Clive

I don't buy that. Artists, patrons, and generic viewers have always cared deeply about the methodology. Consider VanGogh vs Salgado, for example, or of someone in a photo.net portfolio vs someone else who makes prints. Doesn't the difference "matter?"

"It (color) is infinitely more complex than B&W, but that complexity also makes for a larger conceptual working space, allowing for a vast increase in creative possibilities and problems, welcome problems at that.

(separated here to show seemingly conflicting concepts by JK, the reader)

...color is natural, thus also part of the vernacular of human visual language, making it easy to emphasize the "window" aspect of photographs." - Luis G

Although we may individually be less skilled in B&W than color, or the converse, doesn't mean one is more "complex" than the other. The variables in B&W can be exquisitely more subtle than the variables in color prints, which may more readily be considered "acceptable" across a wide range because of Luis's "window" concept.

luis_g · January 11, 2010

John typed - " The variables in B&W can be exquisitely more subtle than the variables in color prints, which may more readily be considered "acceptable" across a wide range because of Luis's "window" concept."

Not my concept, and most practiced photographers would know that. In the summer of 1978, MOMA's John Szarkowski put up a show titled "Mirrors and Windows". Szarkowski made a distinction between "mirrors"—pictures that describe the photographer's personal sensibility—and "windows"—realist, factual photos. This does not mean either/or, but that each photograph has some of each of those qualities, but one usually is dominant over the other.

luis_g · January 11, 2010

Clive - " I couldn't find a good helpful review but anything by Itten on Colour is worth a good look at if you haven't been there before, I mention this because we get so many bad colour pictures because people don't know anything about colour."

I'm in total agreement with Clive on the latter part of the above sentence. As I remarked earlier, the language of color is still a secret, largely unknown to almost all photographers (and painters!) beyond the incidental or Pantone color wheel decorative. I also find Itten excellent, but I'd have to add Albers (do the exercises, ridiculous as they may sound, don't just read the book), Faber Birren and Kandinsky. Luscher is also good, though from a different angle. I found all of them helpful, and Itten's writing my favorite, but Albers' exercises, in my experience, were the most helpful, and I do not mean in getting me to use color like Albers, but in my own way.

aplumpton · January 11, 2010

Clive, Luis-

For photographers, the best practical applications of Johannes Itten's theories I have seen are found in a German text ("Farb-Design in der Fotografie" Deposito legal B. 29433-1977) by Harald Mante, which I have a copy of in its French translation. It has 96 photos and 450 explicative sketches that are tied to colour in photography. There may be an English translation, but the French version has the ISBN number : 2-249-25006-2 and is titled "La couleur en photographie" (Dessain et Tolra publisher, Paris, 1977).

It's a great book, written with very good photographic examples by a practicing photographer.

clive_murray_white · January 11, 2010

Luis -(do the exercises, ridiculous as they may sound, don't just read the book),

The first art school I went to had Colour Theory as a compulsory first year subject, we did almost nothing else than paint excersises in Gouache and though I hated it at the time its proved very useful ever since.

At various times I've had to teach first year uni art subjects (under all sorts of names) which always had an introduction to colour, but essentially these courses all related back to Bauhaus based stuff, the crazy bit is that photography lecturers were never assigned to these programs, almost always painters and sculptors.

For those of you who have not come across this stuff - The reason for doing the exercises is that answer isn't quite as simple as it sounds, mixing the colours yourself makes you realise very quickly why your painting kit has 2 reds, 2 yellows and 2 blues, mix a golden yellow with the blue you use to make purple and you wont ever get a pure green.

Enough - some people have an uncanny colour sense others have to get there by hard slog.

RGB tries its little heart out to get close to getting it right but it is a big compromise and blues seem to be the hardest to get right.

Clive

jtk · January 11, 2010

It's well and good to cite various color theorists, but if you, Clive and Luis, cannot currently personally print color well (or at least control it in post processing), reference to Albers et al is hot air. The OT here is photography. It doesn't exist outside photographic technology.

clive_murray_white · January 11, 2010

That's very entertaining - John.

Of course I can't speak for Luis, but how did you make that jump that infers that neither of us can print?

I could say, just for the entertainment value, how do you know what to print in colour when you steadfastly refuse to learn any of the colour fundamentals.

I for one don't think its a really good idea to try and put a great big wall around Photography as its boundaries are very blurry. IMO

Great chatting to you as always - Clive

jtk · January 11, 2010

That was too harsh, sorry. I don't think a case has been made for the relevance of Albers or Itten to photography: the only credible case could be made by by a practitioner of photograpy...do either of you know of a notable practitioner who thinks either of those gurus relevant to their work?

AS Clive pointed out, accomplished photographers are rarely interested in Albers et al ...which explains the disinterest of "photographic lecturers" (a near oxymoron).

I'd be interested in exceptions or refutation, but notable color photographers seem to have preoccupied themselves with subtractive color, studying the responsiveness of their materials (emulsions, light) rather than silkscreen-oriented additive color theory. The wonderful dye transfer (additive) work from the Sixties simply rendered subtractive (E2, E3) photgraphy.

Inkjet printing seems (to me, a moderately skilled inkjet printer) to be oddly subtractive, despite the multiple layers...presumably because of whatever's going on in the Epson printer driver's head.

clive_murray_white · January 12, 2010

Hi again,

Its an interesting point re: photographers talking about colour theory - I don't think I can ever remember one . But I can remember a post grad review when a student had a picture that was basically a portrait, ie head and sholders in a room, she couldn't understand what going on between the rather reddish/pink face and the background, her way of describing it was that it sort of made her feel a bit ill.

The background was predominantly brown, more yellow brown than red brown, Tan, Khaki - in terms of colour theory, the brown I'm talking about would be described as a dark yellow. In the natural "harmonius" order of things yellow is a lighter colour than red. When you flip the tonal values so the red (pink) is lighter than the yellow is causes a colour discord, these can have quite a striking effect emotionally on people.

She had accidentally created a very discordant work for which there was a perfectly reasonable explanation - I would imagine that colour effects like the one I've described confuse a lot of people when they see them in their pictures and they mask the area and fiddle with the sliders 'til everything settles down to what feels OK for them.

On the other hand if they knew just a little more they could grab the chance of creating a really sophistacted and emotionally charged colour combination.

Clive

luis_g · January 12, 2010

Actually, Clive can speak for me in this instance, as I would have been far less kind.

Clive - "That's very entertaining - John.

Of course I can't speak for Luis, but how did you make that jump that infers that neither of us can print?

I could say, just for the entertainment value, how do you know what to print in colour when you steadfastly refuse to learn any of the colour fundamentals.

I for one don't think its a really good idea to try and put a great big wall around Photography as its boundaries are very blurry. IMO

Great chatting to you as always - Clive"

luis_g · January 12, 2010

Arthur - " Clive, Luis-

For photographers, the best practical applications of Johannes Itten's theories I have seen are found in a German text ("Farb-Design in der Fotografie" Deposito legal B. 29433-1977) by Harald Mante, which I have a copy of in its French translation"

Arthur, I've read one of Harald Mante's books. It was a skinny one in English. I believe it was a simplified version of the one you have. It was quite a good illustration of putting Itten's ideas into photographic practice.

Norma Desmond · January 12, 2010

I write this hesitatingly.

There were many new posters to this thread in particular to whom I'm really grateful for having contributed. I think the thread was interesting up to a certain point.

I debated how to approach what I'm going to say delicately, perhaps was going to be as subtle as I could while trying to make a point. I've decided just to be honest and the chips will have to fall where they may.

From about 3:56 PM today (January 11) I feel the thread has degraded. It's unfortunately become quite typical of Philosophy threads and I sense it's the kind of thing others have tried to address in various threads. A kind of back and forth lesson in how to drop names without actually saying anything of relevance to the original topic, or to anyone but the two or three other people who want to battle for top dog position.

I feel badly because I was hoping that new people were going to start joining the forum and participating a little more regularly. I have this vision (no way to know whether it's accurate) of people reading and wondering what in the world happened here. To me, it's a train wreck.

I wish I had a good solution or bypass, but I don't. Obviously, moving to another thread may be the only option. I'm sorry. I was hoping to continue things along and thanks to those few others who tried with me, but unless someone else can get this thread back on track, I hope to see you all in another thread soon.

Thanks again to those who gave it a good shot and especially to those for whom it was the first shot!

clive_murray_white · January 12, 2010

I tried to post a response but it never showed up, does that mean that the OP can close the thread?

clive_murray_white · January 12, 2010

Ah! that one worked, excellent. While all this was going on I did a little survey of my own and discovered that at least 85% of new photgraphers who are considered significant all work predominantly in colour. If I'd looked 10 years ago the percentage would have been less, 20 years ago almost no colour. You can then extrapolate that in another 10 years almost nobody will be doing B&W.

The new creative photographic frontiers have to be with colour.

Clive

mizore · January 12, 2010

Photography is closer to earlier forms of art printing than to painting, and not all art printing was monochrome, just that color required more skillful printing techniques. Color is now cheaper, even in film, than black and white, because people like color well enough for economies of scale to have lowered the price of that.

The Greek marbles that we admire for their white purity now were painted in the day, if I understand correctly, though I think sculpture today tends to be in original material rather than painted more often than not.

Clive, I'm going to have to hit interlibrary loan for the book on color you've suggested, as that's obviously textbook priced.

william l. palminteri · January 12, 2010

<a href="../photodb/user?user_id=2361079">Fred Goldsmith</a> <a href="../member-status-icons"><img title="Subscriber" src="http://static.photo.net/v3graphics/member-status-icons/sub3.gif" alt="" /><img title="Frequent poster" src="http://static.photo.net/v3graphics/member-status-icons/3rolls.gif" alt="" /></a>, Jan 12, 2010; 01:00 a.m.

I think the thread was interesting up to a certain point.

</blockquote>

Fred, here's what I consider the meat of the original (your) post.

Does color generically give you a different overall feeling than black and white? Can you describe that difference? What's your perspective on color in terms of how you see it in photographs and also in terms of how and when you use it in your photographs? What else could be said about color in the context of photography?

</blockquote>

Fred, I try to give short, succinct, informative answers to the original post. I hope I, at least, have succeeded. I don't have the time to read lengthy posts, and I assume others have the same time constraints. Most of what you mention about irrelevant name dropping and top dogging can be considered off topic, and that becomes a moderator's issue, I would think.

Bill P.

william l. palminteri · January 12, 2010

<a href="../photodb/user?user_id=5581841">Clive Murray-White</a> <a href="../member-status-icons"></a>, Jan 12, 2010; 04:51 a.m.

You can then extrapolate that in another 10 years almost nobody will be doing B&W.

</blockquote>

Assuming a linear progression, you're right. Luckily, you don't trade stocks, or you'd be expecting DOW 77,000 in a few years. Very few things in life follow a linear trajectory, and creativity is far from one of those things.

The new creative photographic frontiers have to be with colour.

</blockquote>

Really? That sounds pretty conclusive. I guess we can shut the door on B/W creativity.....

Bill P.

aplumpton · January 12, 2010

"Does color generically give you a different overall feeling than black and white? Can you describe that difference? What's your perspective on color in terms of how you see it in photographs and also in terms of how and when you use it in your photographs?"

Fred, in regard to your question "what's your perspective in terms of how you see it in photographs", I do think the discussion about color (or colour) in recent posts is useful and in part appropriate, as it underlies the problem that color provides to the photographer or painter, a problem that is not the same as in black and white, namely the influence of color harmony and disharmony in an image.

It is sad that in the past 30 years no other photographer seems to have written a color theory and application text like Harald Mante. Perhaps Dessain and Tolra (who have also published Itten's work, the photography of Ralph Gibson, and many others) can be persuaded to issue the volume in English. It could go some considerable distance in improving the understanding and the application of color photography and in improving the quality of the results in that medium. Some photographers, like Pete Turner or Ernst Haas, have understood, perhaps instinctively, why certain colors work better than others or why certain groups of colors and tones can convey more than just the subject itself.

What we see every day in our changes of scene do not make great color photographs. We can choose to photograph everything of interest we see, without any consideration of the color composition. I often err by putting the consideration of color on the back burner, and usually I am rewarded with a result that is not as impressive as I might wish. The use of color is wonderful, but it is even more wonderful when the photographer understands some of the barriers to success and what works, or not. Like Clive (or was it Luis?), I didn't like very much having to paint my own color patches and compose my color wheel in an evening art course, but I haven't forgotten all of what I learned from that, and the understanding of the play of different colors.

I am not sure that new posters on the forum will feel that color theory and application is all that necessary, but I think that the discussion on color use will add to their consideraton of the powerful and less powerful images in color photography.

"The new creative photographic frontiers have to be with colour."

Clive, you may be right about the color versus B&W tendency, which I feel is largely equipment influenced (For example, how many digital B&W cameras have you seen, I think there are none, even though the B&W sensor could be 3X as powerful as the same megapixel level color one?), but I have never been influenced by the expression "have to" in regard to what artistic or hobby activity I choose.

As we all are witnessing, the number of B&W photographers has and will diminish, until it reaches a certain level. It would be as sad as the "genetically modified singular tomato" if that left no other photographic choice but color. Happily, B&W film and paper production is still practical and I can buy a variety of them at my local photo store (together with color films) rather than having to import those (artistic) materials from Freestyle in California, or England.

steve_swinehart · January 12, 2010

Does color generically give you a different overall feeling than black and white? Can you describe that difference?

</blockquote>

Whenever you make a photograph you are photographing light - the subject is there only because it is reflecting light. Color gives me the ability to show and additional feature of light - its color. For me, that is extremely important.

steve_swinehart · January 12, 2010

deleted - double post

</blockquote>

luis_g · January 12, 2010

The people we cited (Clive, Arthur and I) are perhaps the best available old-school sources for someone interested in taking their awareness of color to the next level. Not, as Fred suggests, name-dropping. They're old names that worked for us, in our personal education in the understanding and use of color. In Clive's case and mine, we also used them successfully to educate others.

Both Arthur and I found Mante interesting and informative. Color theory has moved on considerably since those days. Postmodern color theory is very different, yet the people we mentioned earlier provide a great foundation and first steps for anyone interested in learning color. All of this is relevant to the original topic and eminently useful information even if it doesn't conform exactly to how Fred wants us to express ourselves.

Is this thread turning out exactly as Fred wanted it to? Of course not. I suspect the real world doesn't, either. As well-intentioned and controlling a director as Fred tries to be, the dance of life still happens.

When Fred asked in the original post: "What else could be said about color in the context of photography?"

I, and probably Arthur & Clive, thought: How and where to learn it? How did I learn it? Teach it? That is what this has been about, answering Fred's question.

The thread is fine. In fact, it's been better than most recent ones, still holding plenty of promise and for that, I thank Fred.

__________________

As to Clive's predictions regarding B&W and color, given the nature of chaos theory, predicting the future in art (or the weather) is risky, if not fatal, business.

_________________________

Steve is alluding to one of color's great qualities, which we touched on a long time ago on the subject of print displays: Metamerism. I've already alluded in my initial response to cultural metamerism.

__________________________

For me, all of this knowledge was initially a handicap, until I took its human measure. Then it became integrated, forgotten, and truly useful in a purely intuitive, wordless manner.

___________________________

Arthur, there is extraordinary color in quotidian life. Seeing it is another thing. Color is to us as water is to a goldfish: Hard to see.

aplumpton · January 12, 2010

"Color is to us as water is to a goldfish: Hard to see." True, Luis, until one starts to think about it, whether via the colour wheel theory, or instinctively.

mizore · January 12, 2010

Learning theory is learning how to work more methodically, to understand more than instinctively what's happening in a photograph. If the theory doesn't connect to something instinctive, though, it's not going to have much impact.

Some people have a fear of learning intellectually how to deal with problems in their art, but I'm not sure that relying only on instinct is as useful as its advocates suggest.

william l. palminteri · January 12, 2010

<a href="/photodb/user?user_id=2116036">Rebecca Brown</a> <a href="/member-status-icons"><img title="Subscriber" src="http://static.photo.net/v3graphics/member-status-icons/sub4.gif" alt="" /><img title="Frequent poster" src="http://static.photo.net/v3graphics/member-status-icons/2rolls.gif" alt="" /></a>, Jan 12, 2010; 12:21 p.m.

I'm not sure that relying only on instinct is as useful as its advocates suggest.

</blockquote>

You bet. Next time you're on a commercial flight, ask if the pilot is self-taught, flying on "instinct".

Bill P.

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