James Nachtwey Internship--A Complicated Tale

[gary_watson]

<p>Surprised no one picked up on the blog slugfest occasioned by the internship opportunity offered a few weeks back by arguably one of the best photojournalists working today. Simply googling"James Nachtwey internship" will toss you into the fray. I don't have a dog in this fight but wonder what the PN community thinks of the issues involved. Here's a starting point:<br>

http://jamieslist.wordpress.com/2009/12/10/internship-for-james-nachtwey-nyc-unpaid/</p>

[mike dixon]

<p>I think some young photographer is going to have an incredible opportunity to learn about what it takes to be top, working photojournalist and to make contacts they'd probably never make otherwise, and I think a lot of people kvetching on the internet need to pull their heads out of their behinds.</p>

[joshroot]

<p>Eh, aside from a very few industries, that's the world of internships. Most are unpaid. The company is taking a chance on an unproven young person with no industry references or real experience. In return, that young person gets a chance to get their foot in the door without having any of that experience. A young professional (in any field) has to consider if the experience and the fact that someone will know who you are is worth working for free (or very little).</p>

<p>Sure, you are doing a lot for nothing. But where else can you become a "known entity" to editors/photographers/art-directors/etc (depending on the particular internship). That sort of thing can give you a real leg up in the industry. The hardest thing for young photogs to do is to get their foot in the door. Internships are a traditional way to do that. Assistant positions are as well, but that sort of thing only exists in some very specific genres of photography. Documentary photojournalism isn't one of them.</p>

<p>Is Nachtwey making a lot of money? I don't know, probably. If he isn't, he's a bad businessman. But so is every Madison Ave ad agency or LA fashion magazine. If that is against your morals as a young person, that's fine. It's a reasonable stance to have. But don't expect things to change.</p>

[joshroot]

<p>And I've got to tell you, if I ever got around to creating an internship position for PN, it would very likely be unpaid. We just don't have anything in the budget for it. If that means some people wouldn't be interested, that would be perfectly understandable. But that isn't going to change the realities of the budget. I'll always choose more programmer hours rather than giving some kid money for doing little stuff.</p>

[eric merrill]

<p>If I were wanting to be a PJ and if I could afford it, I'd have to think about the chance to hang around somebody like Nachtwey. I think it's demeaning that he's looking for PS talent and an office administrator but isn't willing to pay for those skills.</p>

<p>If I were young and naive, I'd probably jump at it. Because I'm a little older and wiser, I'd question what kind of experience it would be. My guess is that it could be rough "working" for somebody like him, especially when he's telling applicants up front that he does not value their time at all.</p>

<p>If you can't figure out how to turn a profit from somebody's labor, then do you really need that labor?</p>

<p>Josh, why would you want an intern that does little? I understand not wanting to hand out money for no return, but why not carve out a job that would benefit both the intern and the company?</p>

<p>Eric</p>

[Spearhead]

<p>If I were in college and just starting out, I'd have to weigh my options:</p>

<p>1) Interning with James Natcheway; or</p>

<p>2) Whining on a web forum.</p>

<p>Tough decision, isn't it, especially in today's shrinking job market for photographers.</p>

[jpo3136b]

<p>"Is [he] making a lot of money? I don't know, probably. If he isn't, he's a bad businessman."<br>

". . .if I ever got around to creating an internship position for PN, it would very likely be unpaid. "</p>

<p>Hmmm. Looks like the successful applicant will be the one who convinces Josh to give him a paycheck!</p>

[joshroot]

<blockquote>

<p>Josh, why would you want an intern that does little? I understand not wanting to hand out money for no return, but why not carve out a job that would benefit both the intern and the company?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>The stuff that the site needs help getting done is either the kind of stuff that is fairly "busywork" (facebook updating, blog keeping, twittering, answering email, etc) or larger stuff that an intern isn't going to be qualified to do (programming our old and weird system, writing high end review or instructional articles, etc). There are a few things that an intern could do that would benefit both of us (basic photo tutorials, minor reviews, research for content, interviews, etc). And I'm sure that with someone who was motivated we could (and would) figure out stuff that would benefit both the site and their career.</p>

<p>But for the most part, what we need done is the "PN" version of doing boring PS work for Nachtwey. And overall, that stuff isn't the kind of stuff that is something I could justify taking money from more important parts of the budget for. Do we really want to give up programmer hours to have someone Twittering? Of course not. Twitter is interesting and perhaps helpful in many ways, but it's far from crucial. So I end up overworked and not getting enough of the small stuff done. But that's the way it is sometimes.</p>

<p>Anyway, at the end of the day, it's a academic debate for photo.net. There isn't money in the budget for an intern, particularly in this economy. So even if there was someone who was motivated, had some skills and wanted to do anything we had to do, we couldn't offer them cash. It just isn't an option.</p>

[joshroot]

<blockquote>

<p>Hmmm. Looks like the successful applicant will be the one who convinces Josh to give him a paycheck!</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Sure, come up with a plan to increase revenue and decrease costs while keeping staffing and site traffic/activity the same. Then again, if you could do that, you'd be offering your services as a high end consultant, not as a bargain basement intern.</p>

[jpo3136b]

<p>Josh, you have my email if you need my consult. I'm sure we can work out something to meet your needs. ;-) I was only playing a little. <br /> * * * * *<br /> What's the debate about? [That specific page seemed like it had degraded into an argument about power and money, not an internship.] At large, what's to fuss over the internships?</p>

<p>When I read over some of the thread in the OP for a minute, it looked like some folks were mad because the intern doesn't receive a paycheck. Well, it's more than that, financially: the intern probably still has to pay out money to their university in order to receive credit for the internship. In that respect, it's no different from any other class.</p>

<p>It's too bad that things are tough all over. Who wouldn't like to have life a little easier? Yet, this one person with this one internship offer is not the only game in town.</p>

<p>I had a friend of mine in college; like me, he was older by the time he got to school. He already had a degree and a fair career under his belt, and was reworking his life for something more interesting than what he had before. His degree program in Journalism pretty much meant that he had to intern somewhere. Instead of going out to the few main news sources in town, he picked a lowly tabloid that most people didn't regard seriously. From his point of view, it was a good gig; they had an okay ad revenue stream and were profitable. He did his internship there and loved it. When he graduated, he moved on under his power.</p>

<p>The "name" internships can sometimes be seen like well-named schools: they appear to be some magic carpet ride to success. Is that a realistic view of life?</p>

<p>I think Bill Allard's story of his landing a summer internship at National Geographic is about the only story I've heard of an internship translating into actual, astounding, success. Yet, that probably had more to do with the photographer than the internship. Size up the odds: that one success against everyone else who landed a pub job at the time, and it's lightning-strike, lottery odds. There is no magic carpet ride.</p>

[fate_faith_change_chains]

<p>The ( advanced ) requirements needed for the internship does read more like a paid jobdescription in a studio doing postproductionwork with a massive workflow, with no time to waste. And, it's not interning with James Nachtwey himself per se, it's an internship in his studio, doing postproductionwork. So, if I were just starting out, I'd weigh my options as<br /> 1. Interning in James Nachtwey's studio for three months and possibly gaining some useful experience and insights between the scanning of negatives and photoshop work, but without any pay ( and see the experience between the work as the pay )<br /> 2. concentrating on finding paid work as a photographer.<br /> 3. finding any job at all and save some money so that I could afford an internship in James Nachtwey's studio.</p>

[luis_g]

<p>Let's get real: Nachtwey could be charging prospective interns $3,000, and the line would still stretch around the block.</p>

<p>The laws of demand and supply are working themselves out.</p>

<p> </p>

[joshroot]

<blockquote>

<p>Josh, you have my email if you need my consult. I'm sure we can work out something to meet your needs. ;-) I was only playing a little.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>No worries. I knew it was in fun.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>The "name" internships can sometimes be seen like well-named schools: they appear to be some magic carpet ride to success. Is that a realistic view of life?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>In photography? No, probably not. For a lawyer at a top legal firm? Yes, probably so. For an MBA at a big company (well, a few years ago anyway)? Yes, probably so as well. But those are different worlds from the photo industry.</p>

[Spearhead]

<blockquote>

<p>it's not interning with James Nachtwey himself per se, it's an internship in his studio, doing postproductionwork.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That's not what the resume will say. The person has done an internship with Nachtwey, that's all that matters.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>. concentrating on finding paid work as a photographer.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>It doesn't appear that you've been out looking lately. Much like the music business, a paying photography job can be a negative income proposition these days.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>finding any job at all and save some money so that I could afford an internship in James Nachtwey's studio.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Could be a long time before the same offer comes up again.</p>

[jpo3136b]

<p>The requirements may seem a little tight, Phylo; but, aren't most interns in or near that final year of study? </p>

[mark_chartrand]

<p>How is this different then student teaching for a year -- no pay to you and you still pay the university for the privilege of being "mentored" by an experienced teacher? Just like any intern type experience, it is only as good as the experience you receive. At least with this internship you know the mentor's reputation and its free. With student teaching it is usually the luck of the draw. It often turns out to be from a teacher who wants to spend some extra time in the teacher's lounge while the student teacher does the work. Don't feel too bad for the person that wants this internship. It sounds like he or she could be learning a lot more than in many university classes I have taken -- and I had to pay big bucks for those.</p>

 

[lex_jenkins]

<p>Unpaid internships have been standard practice in the journalism field for many years. Nothing new. Occasionally stipends or grants are available to help unpaid interns, especially those who can't depend on families to support them while in school or interning.</p>

<p>Internships have usually been scut work, gopher jobs. The best, smartest and most ambitious interns learn quickly to make the best possible use of the opportunities. The rest whine on the internet and fail. It's natural selection. It works exactly the way it's supposed to.</p>

[andrew_somerset1]

<p>Okay: I'm opposed to this unpaid internship thing, in general. If you're doing work of value, you deserve to be compensated for it. And internships have the effect of closing doors to people based on their finances -- not, I think, a healthy thing in media.<br>

Still, the Nachtwey bashing is ridiculous. Opposed to unpaid internships or not, they're a feature of the landscape. Nachtwey didn't invent 'em. He's getting slammed for being Nachtwey more than anything else. Debating whether interns in general should be paid is fair; slamming Nachtwey for following widespread practice is not.<br>

I've seen comments on this accusing Nachtwey of creating the same suffering he documents, by starving his poor interns. The people making those comments have a sadly twisted notion of reality.</p>

[fate_faith_change_chains]

<blockquote>

<p>It doesn't appear that you've been out looking lately. Much like the music business, a paying photography job can be a negative income proposition these days.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>We give for everything we're getting.</p>

[bkpix]

<p>I'm surprised at the degree of support on this forum for free internships. Expecting young photographers to give away their labor is on a par with exploitative photography contests and freely copying photographers' work off the Internet. Sure, everybody does it...<br /> <br /> The fact that employers, especially celebrity types, commonly abuse free internships makes them neither moral nor legal.<br /> <br /> Here are the US Department of Labor's criteria for evaluating internships. All six criteria are supposed to be met for free internships to be legal. I question whether Nachtwey's advertised job makes it.<br /> <br /> 1. The training, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to that which would be given in a vocational school;<br /> 2. The training is for the benefit of the trainee;<br /> 3. The trainees do not displace regular employees, but work under close observation;<br /> 4. The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the trainees and on occasion the employer’s operations may actually be impeded;<br /> 5. The trainees are not necessarily entitled to a job at the completion of the training period; and<br /> 6. The employer and the trainee understand that the trainees are not entitled to wages for the time spent in training.</p>

[jpo3136b]

<p>Bob, if you want the students to get paid, how is that going to comply with point #6 that you brought up? I ask gently.</p>

<p>What point about the internship offer is no good? This Nachtwey guy spent about 20+ years downrange as one of the world's premier war photographers. Honorary Doctorate of Fine Arts. Combat wounded. Wouldn't working around this person be a good chance for a young student?</p>

<p>If the guy's making the cover of Time magazine, he's not doing it by milking the labor of some college Junior. What's wrong with his offer, really?</p>

<p>The real problem is that there's only one slot. We probably have about a thousand-plus college kids who are going to have to realize that: A. It's not the only answer to everything, and B. There's only one with this guy.</p>

[george_peng1]

<p>I'm with Bob - I don't think this is an internship at all. If you read the requirements, they read more like an experienced FTE with considerable PS skills than somebody there to do scut work for free in exchange for exposure to the master and perhaps some mentorship (which this does not specify at all). Imagine if you were replaced at your job by an "intern" who performed the duties for which you had trained years to do, simply because he wanted the name on his resume, and could afford to live for free because he's being subsidized by his parents.</p>

<p>Which leads to the other element here - its in NYC, so it demands that you have the resources (parents funds) to live here or are willing to work nights waiting tables and living in the South Bronx. So it reads more like, as somebody noted on the original listing, affirmative action for the privileged rather than a real opportunity for the deserving. Sure, somebody could go the Bronx route, do you say that in this case the "system worked"? That sounds more like somebody using the exception to prove the rule, which isn't exactly sound policy.</p>

[Spearhead]

<blockquote>

<p>Expecting young photographers to give away their labor is on a par with exploitative photography contests and freely copying photographers' work off the Internet.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>This is not at all the case. There's no way anyone can leverage some copied photos into a good job in photography.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>its in NYC</p>

</blockquote>

<p>So? Many music internships are in NYC and people have found ways to live there on nothing for years in order to take advantage of them. Plenty of struggling artists, musicians, and, yes, photographers choose to live in NYC because the business is there, regardless of the lack of money. It's more about determination than anything else.</p>

<p>Which of you has successfully gotten a pj/reportage job without some sort of no-to-low paying start? Stand up and explain how you did it so that nobody ever has to suffer through an internship.</p>

[bkpix]

<p>John, I'm not opposed to unpaid internships, but I agree with the common-sense concept behind the Department of Labor criteria, that they should have a strong educational component.<br>

And, Jeff, I got my first newspaper job -- low but legal pay -- without ever working a single internship. That may be a reflection of my age. But the fact that internships seem to be required now results largely from increasing exploitation of the young by unscrupulous employers. There are, indeed, "internships" the employee is expected to pay for.</p>

[lex_jenkins]

<p>I got my first low paying newspaper job without an unpaid internship too. I was a good writer and reporter but distrusted unpaid internships. The unpaid interns who hustled to take advantage of their opportunities succeeded later where I failed. They understood better than I how to hustle and parlay opportunities into rewards.</p>

<p>Again, it's survival of the fittest in play where it actually works best. It weeds out those who can't play the game well, and rewards those who adapt quickly and understand how to take advantage of opportunities. It doesn't weed out the talented from the untalented. But it does separate those who are equally talented but unequally gifted with ambition and ability to parlay opportunities. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.</p>