Another "which to buy" question

[gnashings]

<p>I HATE these questions... and I HATE asking it... but I am at a total loss. I am hoping that a community of photographers will understand my needs, and those of you with cross-over, if you will, experience, will be able to point me in the right direction. <br>

For starters, my intended use:<br>

Family cam-corder, perhaps youtube uploads. No Oliver Stone fantasies here :)<br>

Must have:<br>

-manual focus and apperture<br>

-ability to plug in external mic<br>

-effective optical image stabilization<br>

Nice to have:<br>

-HD<br>

-Quality lens adapters<br>

-ability to accept standard photo filters<br>

-webcam ability (for that perfect storm when I'm drunk AND naked... JUST KIDDING!)<br>

-a lens starting on the wider side, not so much need to reach out and touch someone with a long tele.<br>

Don't care about:<br>

Ultimate lens quality - sure, a decent lens is a must - but not on the same level I look at when choosing a still camera lens, whatever I get will outshoot my abilities and most likely the viewing format/output device.<br>

Interchangeable lenses - just more ability than I am likely to need.<br>

Brand. Just don't care what I get as long as it works.<br>

Price:<br>

Here I am stumped - I don't know what is or isn't realistic. It seems that cameras that fit my needs (at a first and very "noobish" glance) cost $2500 plus... NOT AN OPTION! :)<br>

I would like to spend about $500. Is this do-able? If not, I would appreciate a reality check (as in "hey buddie, for all that crap you will have to pay $xxxx.xx).<br>

Phew. Also - where to buy for someone in the People's Republic of Canada - Toronto area, would be a great bonus.<br>

I look forward to your responses, even if you just clip a link to a website or a thread that I obviously overlooked. Thanks in advance,</p>

<p>Peter.</p>

[MichaelChang]

<p>Peter, are you willing to accept pre-owned goods?</p>

<p>I think you're quite right that the "must have" list puts it out of your $500 budget, even used.</p>

<p>It's all about accepting compromises. For example:<br /> * Image stabilization can be had with good handling technique with a simple home-made cradle. <br /> * External mic. can be substituted with an external audio recorder sync'd in post. There are many low cost options including the (now obsolete but high quality) Sony MD recorders.<br /> * Most camcorders come with a front thread to accept adapters, auxiliary lens and filters.</p>

<p>If you're considering new only, then you'll pretty much be limited by whatever's out there which are quite similar from different manufacturers. But you can get some pretty good deals on pre-owned gear.</p>

<p>I'd check with <a href="http://www.henrys.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/DepartmentDisplay?catalogId=10001&departmentId=main&storeId=10001">Henry's in Toronto</a> , and poke around <a href="http://toronto.kijiji.ca/">Kijiji (Toronto)</a> , <a href="http://www.ebay.ca/">eBay.ca</a> and <a href="http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/Category/guidedsearch.asp?CatId=4441&name=camcorders,digital%20video">TigerDirect.ca</a> just to see what's out there.</p>

[MichaelChang]

<p>Peter, another option is to buy a digital point-n'-shoot. Almost all contenders around your price range will be competent video shooters, dependent on your expectation, of course.</p>

<p>A step up from your budget can be something like a <a href="http://www.henrys.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ItemsDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&departmentId=10404&categoryId=10429&itemID=258751">Nikon D5000 outfit</a> . Again, depending on your shooting needs; a competent salesman at Henry's will be able to help you with that.</p>

[gnashings]

<p>Thanks for the info, as you can see I am very much near the bottom of the learning curve:) I would absolutely be willing to go used, I am just weary of that route due to my ignorance of the subject. I don't know off hand what constitutes just used, not cutting edge but perfectly acceptable and usable - the digital world is scary with the ever tumbling cascade of formats, both soft and hard, developmental dead ends that may have worked well but are now useless due to lack of peripheral support, etc. Given some education, which I am working on as we speak :) and some good advice, used is absolutely a good route. Of course, then there are the prices... So hard to pin down what is a fair deal when one is not familiar with the various goods in the market.<br>

As far as point and shoots, or even a dSLR kit, I simply would have no use for it outside of the video application, and I would think that the traditional wisdom still applies - generally things are better at a given price point in their primary role, than similarly priced items that support given function as a secondary. Perhaps I am wrong, I really am THAT out of the loop here:)<br>

Further, which of my "must haves" would I have to give up to most affect price? I would really loathe to give up the manual options most of all. Secondly, how far would I have to move up in price to get more realistic in my search?<br>

Also, the cradle you mention - sounds very intriguing! Can you point me to some sources about such projects? I imagine they do not involve ordering gyros, etc:) I can see myself filming in a moving car quite a bit, both from a fixed position (roll cage) and from a handheld - stabilizing the image to avoid that "blair witch running" look would be pretty important. I obviously have the tripod issue covered more than adequately for my needs (would be a hell of a camcorder to challenge my LF gear, tee hee:)), but something like a low buck, perhaps handmade quasi steadycam device really peaked my interest! Of course, all my light sources will be rendered useless as I dont own any hot lights... but that's independent of my cam choice. <br>

OK, now I am rambling:) Thanks again, and I look forward to any further input!</p>

[MichaelChang]

<p>Unfortunately manual options is the feature that separates high end machines, and even then there are compromises.</p>

<p>An example is the <a href="

DCR-VX2000</a> , several years old, uses Mini-DV tapes, and still fetches over $1,000 on the <a href="http://photography.shop.ebay.com/Camcorders-/11724/i.html?Format=MiniDV&_nkw=vx2000&_catref=1&_dmpt=Camcorders_Professional_Video_Cameras&_fln=1&_ssov=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m282">used market</a> . And that's just the start - you'll need to transfer footage to computer in real time and have the hardware and software to edit and burn, not to mention accessories.</p>

<p>You can achieve the bulk of image stabilization with a proper camera form factor (with a handle on top, or jury-rigged cradle to provide a similar function) and good handling technique. This gives you two additional pivot points (wrist and fingers) to stabilize much like learning to run with an egg on a spoon. Optical stabilization is useful to counter high zoom (high frequency) shakes but comes at a cost.</p>

<p>No camera is going to be blur-free if roll cage mounted; the vibration range will be way out of their correction capability but that can be largely overcome with a compliant platform to provide a secondary suspension.</p>

<p>One thing we haven't touched on is low light performance and image quality. This usually is the difference between 1 and 3 CCD cameras, with 3CCD being more desirable but higher cost.</p>

<p>If I correctly understood your expectations, I'd say to be realistic, budget $1500 and give yourself a few months to become familiarized with gear. If your needs are immediate, buy an inexpensive point-n'-shoot digital camera until you decide (new or used in the $100-$200 range) - you'll be surprised by their capability.</p>

[chris_autio]

<p>Consumer cameras have these features. Most have a lot more features. I have used both the above Sony VX 700 VX 1000 and the Panasonic 100B. The VX2000 and Panasonic100B can shoot in the film-familiar 24 fps. Frames per second. What is really missing from a lot of the reviews is that the Panasonic is uncomfortable, is a hindrance with ease of use when hand holding for a long time. The Sonys are much nicer in this way, and also, that they really pull out color from a shaded environment. It's a rough comparison of Provia and Velvia. I will get a Sony on my next project no doubt, and sell my Panasonic. Both cameras also require (but not absolutely require) a deck, which can is pricey. In the world of get-out-the-camera-then-google-the-"experience" then all you will need is a small video cam, and that can be purchased for under $500.</p>

[gnashings]

<p>Thanks guys, I am still reading up and educating myself, I appreciate the input.</p>

[john_jennings2]

<p>Peter has asked the very same question I have to ask. While I will always primarily be a still photographer, having good video capability is the next logical step. You know, for family get together's and the odd UFO.<br>

I'm not in the market for the moment, but need something to "shoot" for. Not cheap, but not break the bank. I hope this thread gets lot of input.</p>

 

[alan_ginman]

<p>I am in a similar position and I'm looking at the Panasonic GH1. It seems to be the still camera with the most user friendly video options. I have a Panasonic 3CCD video camera but it spends most of the time in a cupboard as it's really too big and too much for the family shots I bought it for. So I'm going to sell that and probably get the GH1.</p>

<p>Regards</p>

<p>Alan</p>