Let's Stop Complaining and Do Something About Critiques

[gordonjb]

I apologize for the digression . I have nothing to say about the critique forum beyond that which I've already stated dozens of times over a span of several years, all of which you must be as tired of reading about as I am tired of writing about. I will bow out and wish you luck.

[AJHingel]

<p>As Josh rightly write, let's concentrate here on the critique forum.<br>

I might not be the right one to complain because I don't use the critique forum anymore and I have certainly stopped rating. I frequently go back to see what is shown in the forum but rarely it inspires me for making comments. What I mostly do is to look into the portfolio of those that I have learned to know (and admire) over the years and sometimes when I see photos where I believe to have something to comment on that could be of interest to others I leave a "critique". I have tried to get out of purely formal manifestations of friendship, although that is mostly what is going on, and I have surely seen the sharp fall in comments on my own portfolio.<br>

I would like to see a critique forum which is more proactive (see previous contribution to this thread) and less dependent on critique of new photos. Thousands of marvelous photos are hidden in portfolios and could be unearthed by PN (random choice mechanism) by simply applying the principle that all uploaded photos are potential photos for critics whether the member ask explicitly for it or not. This principle is applied in the POW forum. Why not apply it more widely in the critique forum. It would make PN more democratic and more active. To add to such a system, a critique of the week chosen by the elves is a very good idea in my eyes.</p>

<p> </p>

[daveinwilton]

<p>I have said my bit, and I apologise if I veered the track of the post too much.</p>

<p>-Dave</p>

[stemked]

<p>Sorry I'm a little late to the discussion.<br>

Personally I really like the critique forum. Now that I don't teach photography its a good substitute for me to get feedback out of my system (especially when I'm not teaching my biology classes). Personally I don't post a lot of photos, it isn't me. But it is overwhelming to comment on so many images, I personally stick mostly to nature as it is the area I know best.<br>

I know this might sound crazy but perhaps one thing we could offer is a tutorial with some sort of a quiz at the end that posters would need to pass before they posted. Nothing difficult, but I would think that would help make those putting up the photos be a little more mindful of the images that they are posting. It might also limit those requesting critiques to those who seriously want real feedback rather than those who simply want the pat on the back.</p>

<p>Just a thought.</p>

[cyr_smith]

<p>

<h1>Let's Stop Complaining and Forget About Critiques-!</h1>

</p>

<p>Much better.</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p><strong>Douglas</strong>, Thanks for your thoughts. I think a tutorial with quiz might be pushing it a little, especially in terms of site practicality, but I hope we can all work together on putting together some guidelines for effective critiquing. I hope to start that thread soon.</p>

[major]

<p><strong><em>"Let's Stop Complaining and Forget About Critiques-!</em></strong><br /><em>Much better."</em></p>

<p>Statements like these are a good indicator of what’s really wrong with PN. The person who made that statement hasn’t done anything on this site but antagonize.<br />Too many people, risking nothing at all are getting their amusement just screwing around with something most here on photo.net find (or use too) enjoyable.<br />If you’re not a subscriber to PN, then you shouldn’t be allowed to have an opinion on critiques or forums!</p>

[terrygilroy]

<p>The things I do for a comment or critique! I like to comment on and praise photos I like, I will critique those I dislike belonging to people I know will accept it in good faith.<br>

I have received a lot of abuse - usually from females with large .. er egos for suggestions and criticisms which were justifiable. However what I think we should avoid is back scratching - you praise mine and I'll praise yours.<br>

I rarely mark these days but when I do I am quite happy to use the full range of 1 - 7. We all have different tastes but we should all try to be honest in our comments.</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p><strong>Major</strong>, These sorts of drive-by one liners are fairly common. Best just to move on. For those who care, it's a good thread. That's what matters. I do want to say that I appreciate the fact that PN is open both to members and non-members. Members do have certain advantages which the administrators have determined are appropriate, but it seems reasonable that everyone can participate equally in the forums. Now, the fact that I think the policy is reasonable doesn't mean I think all the participants are :)</p>

<p><strong>Terry</strong>, I hope your PN experience with females is happenstance and doesn't represent any sort of trend or statistically significant data. There's plenty of nastiness and egotism to go around among both the fair sexes. Obviously, we are each going to have our own style of critiquing and approach to others' work. That's part of what makes both giving and receiving critiques difficult. They come from all kinds of folks, with all kinds of agendas or lack of agendas, with a variety of tastes and types of experience. I don't approach it so much from the standpoint of what I like as much as what jumps out at me. If a photo strikes me, for whatever reason, as I'm going through the critique queue, I am as likely to comment on something I don't like as on something I do.</p>

[joshroot]

<blockquote>

<p>If you’re not a subscriber to PN, then you shouldn’t be allowed to have an opinion on critiques or forums!</p>

</blockquote>

<p>While I understand where your comment is coming from, I can tell you right now that what you are proposing will never happen as long as I am in charge around here. That just isnt' the kind of place that photo.net wants to be.</p>

[pvg photography]

<p>As a new comer to PN, I have truly been inspired and awed by the expertise of so much of the work I have viewed. So much so in fact that I was left wondering if I really could participate in providing any worthwhile insights to anyones work. Seeing Josh's comments above in regard to stating what it was about a picture that captured my attention, be it composition, use of color, subject matter, perspective, etc., I realized that while I am still very much a novice , my opinion as a lover of photography, may indeed help someone else improve their portfolio. I also very much agree w/ the opinion that rather than asking for a "nice photo" critique, we should be seeking more specific feedback.</p>

[aplumpton]

<ol>

<li>I don't think we can expect to always have a constructive critique of our work. A lot of comments I see are simple praise, without any explication of why, and I guess we should just accept them for what they are worth, and no more. </li>

<li>Much more interesting, to my mind, is either (a) a critique of praise which is elaborated, or (even more useful), (b) a critique which sees the limitation in my image, or in what the viewer perceives I am trying to communicate, and leaves some constructive critique which I can then analyse, accpt or reject, and learn by. In some cases, fruitful continued discussion with the reviewer is very useful. Although it doesn't happen often, those are the critiques that I desire, even though I am not at all interested in seeking ratings. </li>

</ol>

[Norma Desmond]

<p>Thanks again to everyone who has participated.</p>

<p>Just a reminder that the point of this thread was not to make suggestions for site changes to the critique forum, though it's very much appreciated that Josh took an interest and may effect some changes based on what has been said. It's about PN photographers and participants taking some control and becoming proactive in participating in a way that we, ourselves, find most effective and helpful. No matter what PN administration does, it's up to the users to make this site function to our own advantage, even if it's just a few of us.</p>

<p>Several here think it's a good idea to establish some user-generated guidelines to critiquing. I have started a different thread for that purpose. It is here:</p>

<p>http://www.photo.net/casual-conversations-forum/00U8gP</p>

[cyr_smith]

<blockquote>

<p>If you’re not a subscriber to PN, then you shouldn’t be allowed to have an opinion on critiques or forums!</p>

</blockquote>

<p>And this comes from someone who has neither a single picture of their own work nor a link to one......<br /> Now that's a telling observation. I guess that makes you a "true" critic.</p>

[major]

<p>I just recently deleted my portfolio Cyr... And forgive me for my comment. <br />Fred I would like to apologize to you as well for taking your thread off course.</p>

[joe_gaskill]

I'm brand spaken new on this site. I checked it out for a couple of weeks. I was happy enough with what I saw to enlist for three years. I've critiqued a couple of people one of whom thanked me for some constructive thoughts on her work. My problem is the guy behind me says in effect you don't know what your talking about.

This works against me in that if it happens with a photo I want critiqued it kinda puts a stop to lots of other folks who might have some useful constructive criticism. Hell I don't have to accept any old criticism that comes along but it behooves me to think about then chuck it if I want.

So don't critcize the critiquer. You ain't protecting somebody from this nasty old basser. If I like a piece of work the critcizers won't stop me from giving an opinion about how I feel your work might be made better. What's this site all about anyway.

 

Remember, compliments are like sugar ... tastes great but has lots of calories and no food value.

Constructive criticism is like brussels sprouts ... you may not like it but there's lots of food value.

 

I used this to instruct my friends that praise is nice but my feet are still in the real world, I can give hard knocks as well as take them it makes me a better artist.

Joe Gaskill, Newbie (to this site)

 

[Norma Desmond]

<p><strong>Major</strong>, you owe no one an explanation or defense and have nothing to apologize for.</p>

<p><strong>Joe</strong>, It's funny, I've seen that happen too and it can bug me when another member feels they need to defend a photographer against someone else's critique. At the same time, I have many times critiqued someone's critique. I think that's an important part of the critique forum. Sometimes what someone says will be either so stimulating or so off that I want to respond to it, and I've had people comment on my own critiques as well. If done with respect, I'm fine with that. We put our photos up for feedback and they become fair game. I'm of the mind that when we put ourselves out there with a critique or even with a post in a forum, we also become fair game. A lot of the better critique pages have been where there is some disagreement among the critiquers and a good dialogue ensues. It's often the way the Photo of the Week critiques work and it can be a real eye opener on individual photo pages as well. I take it on a case-by-case basis. If I feel someone is being defensive just out of a sense of protection, I find it silly. But if someone genuinely disagrees with a critique and makes a case for why, that's more often than not enlightening.</p>

[vancouverphotographer]

<p>A lot of good points. I didn't have a problem with reciprocation though, if someone takes the time to provide feedback then I'm going to go have a look at their latest stuff. For sure, nothing can be done to please everyone but PN is still the best site around for feedback easily.</p>

[lintrathen]

<p>Wow! Is this a thread to plough through! Interesting reading though. I'm about 3 months old on this site, and this topic rages on as it does on other sites of this nature. There are some good points for Josh to ponder over.<br>

This may have been said before, but I believe in the old adage "put up or shut up".... if you're going to rate a shot then you should qualify your rating via a critique. I have only posted a few shots for rating/critique purposes and whilst I have received "average" ratings, no-one has left a critique for me to learn from.... rather defeats the purpose don't you think.<br>

We all have different genres, and I tend to stick to mine, ones that I know a little about. What I find annoying is posted critiqes on say... a bird in flight.... that are rather negative or disparaging but when looking at the critics gallery he/she appears to have never shot a bird. If you don't have the hands-on experience within a genre, I don't believe you have the right to "low-rate" a posting, let alone offer advice about a 1/2 stop down or whatever.<br>

Yes, photography is subjective, no doubt about it, but we as photographers have to learn another element to this profession.... level of difficulty/effort. If you haven't risen at 4am to drive for 2 hours then walk for one to catch an Osprey on the wing then can you honestly comment on the "slight fuzzy wingtips". What I don't need is a fashion photographer telling me about lighting when I am 20 feet away from a full grown male lion and the armed ranger is scanning the bush for the rest of the pride. Do you get my drift (smiles).<br>

So, back to the point..... leave a rating and leave a critique <strong>or</strong> just leave a critique. If a critic has the same genre as me, then I will certainly look at his/her work and leave comments where appropriate... through this I have made a few friends around the world and we email often.<br>

Just my humble opinion.<br>

Regards </p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p><strong>Grayham</strong>, Thanks for your thoughts and I hope you get a lot out of this site. I do get your point but have a different take on the subject of critique within different genres. Your getting up in the middle of the night and putting yourself in danger might be compelling from a human nature standpoint and from an adrenalin rush perspective, it is admirable just as my putting myself out there to become intimate with the subjects of my portraits might be an interesting human interest story. Certainly, it all significantly goes into our photos. But if our photos are crap (or even a stop off exposurewise), then they're crap (or a stop off exposurewise) no matter what we had to go through to get them. Sure, we might have different ways of evaluating street shooting from studio fashion shots from nature shots , but the bottom line is that no matter the lengths we go through to get the shot, we can still get a lousy shot or a shot in need of improvement. It's not my job as a photographer who does mostly portraits to keep quiet about your work. (As a matter of fact, I'll bet I might have some more interesting and constructive things to say about your nature shots than many fellow nature photographers. One of my favorite regulars here on PN who critiques my work is a gentleman who does mostly magnificent landscapes and few if any portraits. I've gotten some of my better insights from his comments on my work. Much of critique has to do with looking, thinking, and writing. Sometimes the perspective of someone doing something very different in the medium can be quite on target and enlightening. I do recognize, though, that someone doing your kind of shooting might have certain kinds of insights and suggestions that I wouldn't.) It's your place as a photographer to listen to my critique, look at my work, look at some other of my critiques, and determine if it has value to you. But to dismiss it out of hand because of the kind of work I do, I think, would be doing yourself a disservice. Ratings are a different and very contentious matter around here and have been discussed endlessly on this site, which you will see more of as you hang around.</p>

[lintrathen]

<p>Fred.... thank you for your kindly slap on the wrist (smiles) I get your point.... I do. My original posting came about from critiques I had read on this site (not of my work) with which I disagreed, or that IMHO showed the critics lack of understanding of the difficulty of the shot. I am not a confrontational person by nature and would therefore not venture to criticise someone elses critique..... I feel we are all too prickly for that. Maybe I need to lock on to some of you genuine guys out there and follow your critiques to see if I see what you see..... a new type of learning curve.<br>

Anyway I'll stop rambling now.<br>

Thanks for your input and know it is the start of a new learning/thinking about curve for me<br>

Appreciated </p>

[rebeccaculbreth]

<p>Fred,<br>

I recently joined photo.net and have received a few surprisingly helpful critiques that I would like to respond to. I am hesitant to say this, but I actually could not figure out how to respond (!). I found this post by typing in: how to respond to critique. An email notification may also help show people they are being critiqued, especially 'free members' that may not check back often once their photo quota has been met.<br>

:)</p>

<p> </p>