commenting on "bad" photographs

[jgalyon]

<p>In a recent thread a member brought up (what they considered to be fact) that no one <em><strong>ever</strong></em> comments on "bad" photographs that are posted on P.net....because it is a "waste of their time". This has been argued long and hard in that thread, so my bringing it up here is not to bring about further rehashing of the subject. I'll just say this: although I don't agree with the concept that rating photographs we consider to be "bad" is a waste of time...or that PN members never leave comments on such photographs, I do agree with the fact that such comments are too few and far between.</p>

<p><br />I can speak from personal experience in saying that it is all too easy to gravitate to "good pictures" and leave compliments...and it takes a little more effort and discipline to offer constructive comments/critique for "bad" photographs. Personally, I feel that we're doing our fellow members and ourselves a big disservice when we choose to ignore only the best photographs posted on PN. There are multitudes of members who are beginners/novices who post their pictures, hoping that they'll get feedback on how to improve their work...but get nothing. Sure, there are some who proclaim that they are "victims"...and a quick look at their portfolio shows that they never participate in offering comments to others...but yet expect everyone to shower them with comments when it's their photograph that's been posted. I'm not speaking of these individuals that apparently don't understand that this is a give and take proposition...or at least, that it should be. I'm speaking of those who <em>do give</em> of their time and effort...and are not just "takers".</p>

<p><br />That being said, I'm throwing out a proposal. I'm committing to offering as many comments on photographs that, shall we say....need help, a.k.a., "bad photographs"....as I do for "good photographs" ...for the coming month...and asking if there might be others willing to do the same. Hopefully at the end of that month many of us will have begun a habit of offering such comments that will be long-lasting.</p>

<p><br />Please understand, that this isn't one of those posts in which someone is telling you what you "should" do...or implying that if you don't choose to join in...that you're a "bad" person. I just think it would be a positive movement for the community to reach out to all of the membership and not just the more accomplished photographers among us.</p>

[richterjw]

<p>I will make a concerted effort toward this. The question that sometimes keeps me from doing such (though, admittedly, I haven't commented on much in recent months) in the past is not knowing where posters really desire to have their work critiqued. I hate to spend time on something when it will go largely unobserved/unappreciated. Nevertheless, I think I'll give it a go, though I understand this does not make me a good person. JR</p>

[jgalyon]

<p>Granted there's a real possibility that your comments won't be appreciated, but I've found (a bit to my surprise) that I've received almost without exception, a favorable reaction. And yes...I agree...doesn't necessarily translate to our being "good" persons just because we offer comments...but perhaps means we're trying. thanks Jeremy!</p>

[JDMvW]

<p>Remember <em>Bambi</em> ? It's called the Thumper Syndrome: "If you can't say anything good, don't say anything at all."<br>

While this may explain why my own pictures never get rated, I prefer to think it's because I've never asked for ratings..... ;)</p>

<p>First, not all persons respond well to criticism, even though they've asked for it.<br>

Second, criticism of a not-so-great piece is hard work. As a teacher for so many years, I had to grade papers, part of the job, no way out of it. It's far harder to grade a low C or D paper than it is an A paper. In the not-so-hot class of papers, pictures, etc., if you are doing your job, you have to try to set them on the right path, and explain why they are wrong. Of course, Fs are usually not too hard either. Bs are in between.</p>

<p>An alternate stategy for the teacher (or rater) is the one followed by Duchovny's character in the movie <em>Evolution</em> . That one only has a chance of working if you already have tenure, and will create problems if the other professors find out what you are doing (jealousy, really). Duchovney gave almost the entire class As. Just give 7/7s or whatever and they won't ask for criticism.<br>

One of the joys of retirement is that I never have to do this again, and that includes all those not-quite-all-that-they-could-be drafts of dissertations. <strong>That</strong> was work.<br>

So I do not rush to make comments or ratings on anything that does not interest <em><strong>me</strong> </em> very much for one reason or another.</p>

 

[the world in black white]

<p>And, of course, there is always the subjectivity of what is good and what is bad, and what qualifies an individual to make the respective determination. </p>

[jgalyon]

<p>In this instance it's entirely up to the viewer to determine what <em>they</em> determine to be "bad", for the very reason you mentioned...it's a subjective call. </p>

[michaelyoung]

<p>A while back I swore to never again rate or ask for ratings, much less critique.</p>

<p>Recently I've begun doing it again--almost as an afterthought--and certainly without the expectations that I had when I first stumbled on to PN.</p>

<p>In the interest of entertaining myself and possibly amusing others, I'm in the process of starting a blog wherein I critique my own photographs. I've found that if I let them age as little as a week, maybe two, that my immediate attachment to whatever strengths they may possess fades sufficiently to allow examination of their flaws along with exploration of what technique(s) may have improved them.</p>

<p>Otherwise, at this point in time, I'm just supremely irritated with myself for revisiting certain types of errors in my photos that I was quite sure I'd left behind. </p>

<p>Finally, there's an element of self-delusion to some of this (emphasis on "some")<br>

Don't we know in large measure, even before we post, what's right and what's wrong with a photo--even if we've just so much as visited daily for a year or two?</p>

<p>Perhaps the whole system is working just as it should albeit without the sense of immediacy one might expect.</p>

<p><br /> There are other issues that need to be examined. Namely, the double bind that occurs whenever a subset here manages to create a successful interaction amongst themselves. On the one hand it's the ultimate goal. On the other hand it seems to be frowned upon with allegation of mate rating (which I know perfectly well certainly does exist). <br /> <br /> One finds a group of people whose opinions one values and makes the mistake of trying to rate one of their photos after having been rated only to find that the system is programmed to preclude and prevent that type of interaction--as if the computer can possibly know whether or not I truly believe a given photo is truly deserving of a 7/7<br /><br /> I have a stressful job in the "real" world. I also have an extremely demanding private consultancy that I limit to four days a month. I take this renewed excursion of mine into photography very, very seriously--because I love it--but I'm just not sure I'm up for antics regardless of their origin.</p>

[gerrymorgan]

<p>John, you are absolutely right. I have this tendency too. Although I sometimes say negative things in my critiques, it's always in the context of suggesting improvements to a photo that I fundamentally like. And I always wrap the criticism in a positive "sandwich": start with the positive, introduce a criticism (if any), and end on a positive note.</p>

<p>No more Mr Nice Guy! (No, I'm just kidding: I truly think criticism can be phrased kindly even when there is nothing positive of substance to say). I accept your challenge, and I've already made a start on it. For the next four weeks, I will critique photos that I dislike as well as those I like. And I will be constructive in my criticism, suggesting improvements where I see possibilities.</p>

[jgalyon]

<p>thanks to all who have responded...one way or the other!<br>

Gerry, Your description of how you offer constructive criticism is practically identical to how I go about it. On one hand, I don't want to anger, hurt, or discourage people via a comment/critique...on the other, it is such a disservice to not be honest. I've found very few photographs which I didn't find at least <em>something</em> positive to comment on...but I have found a few. One that immediately comes to mind is a photo that I described as "the worst photograph I've ever seen". I realize that this was bordering on being brutal...but fortunately the photographer had many other photographs in his portfolio that were truly quite good. So, I was able to soften the blow with deserved comments about those photographs. In the end ...the guy went out of his way to thank me for being honest. Of course...there was the risk that the guy would have gone postal on me, but I think that the careful wording that showed that my intention was not to belittle his effort made it a positive experience for both of us. I'm sure that other members could give examples where quite the opposite has ocurred when handing out even mild criticism...but so what? If people ask for critique and comments...and they don't like what they hear, it's up to them how they react.<br>

I appreciate your response and glad you've decided to join the movement!</p>

[lex_jenkins]

<p>One problem is that we need a system that distinguishes between critique requests and teaching requests. The current system doesn't do this. There are too many vague "All comments appreciated" or just "Comments?" remarks in critique requests.</p>

<p>If a beginner submits a poorly composed photo it should go to a queue intended for teaching, learning or mentoring, with a very specific request for the type of feedback or instruction desired.</p>

<p>If I see a critique request from an experienced photographer whose portfolio consistently shows obvious skills (I often check their history before I write any comments), I tend to view the photo differently. If the critique request is non-specific I start with the assumption that the photo is as the photographer intended, and try to interpret his or her intention, rather than jumping in with the usual tiresome regurgitated crap:</p>

<ul>

<li>Rule of thirds goes in every photograph, no exceptions!</li>

<li>Too much/not enough contrast!</li>

<li>Too much/not enough color!</li>

</ul>

<p>In the end, I decided it was a waste of time to bother critiquing or commenting on photos for which the photographer was too lazy to write a specific request for the type of comments wanted.</p>

<p>And for now I no longer regard any non-specific critique request as sincere unless it is accompanied by a very specific request for the type of comments wanted. It's obvious some people - mostly those who use their limit of four requests every 24 hours - are not interested in critiques but only in faint praise and affirmation. No serious photographer can possibly need a routine feeding of four doses of fawning praise every 24 hours. I'd rather concentrate on those who carefully select a handful of photos a month and sincerely invite thoughtful critiques. I wish the system had some way to filter out the needy infants who demand four feedings every day, or shunt them to a nursery section where like-minded folks can ogle each other's purty pitchers without clogging up the works for those experienced folks who don't overburden the system or beginners who need instruction.</p>

[jgalyon]

<p>Can't say that I disagree with a thing you've said Lex. I honestly wish we had a critique section that might be labeled...."SERIOUS CRITIQUES ONLY...ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK...NOT FOR THE FAINT HEARTED OR THIN-SKINNED". </p>

[anthea50]

<p >Hi all! As a newcomer to photo.net, digital photography, and online forums of any kind, I would like to put in my 2 cents worth on this interesting topic. I have only just done my first ‘rating’, although I have commented on a handful of photos from the critique forum (and put in three of my own for C&C so far). In my comments, I also tried to put positive comments in with constructive ones, and I only comment on those genre’s with which I have experience (not sports or fashion, for example), hopefully for obvious reasons! I would like to contribute to this ‘movement’, because I believe strongly in learning and developing skills. I have just been hanging back in discussions on this topic because I am still very new, although I do have some reservations about the rating system in general (the numbers vs words thing) I do appreciate it if people take the time to check my work and rate it. I would like to see some names to the rating (all but two have been anonymous) and I have only had one actual comment, because then I could thank them for taking the time etc. As it is, with anon, you are just left with the number. But I also understand why, having read some of the previous threads too before posting today. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >The other reason I have hung back on rating is that for one of my photo’s the rating (it was anonymous) was held back until it was reviewed because the member was new. I am only new too, so that made me hesitate more. As to Lex’s comments, maybe I make a mistake by being too open, I too said the usual ‘all comments and critiques welcome’ even though I wanted more pointed advice (on composition for example) because I felt it might make it too difficult for people. Will definitely be more specific from now on! </p>

<p > </p>

<p >The other observation I have made is the vast majority of photos in the critiques forum are (in my humble opinion) absolutely top rate, and couldn’t think of a single way to improving them, so a comment is all I can offer. I do have one tiny little bug bear with the rating system (apart from the numbers vs words thing) is that one rating is for Aesthetics. Not all photographs are beautiful, surely? Photography portrays life, and seen by the photographer, and not all life is beautiful. I am always reminded of the now famous shot of the naked little girl running down the road after a nuclear bomb (Hirosima?). Not beautiful, but a powerful photograph non the less. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >To finish off (I can hear the sighs of relief) I also think there should be a forum/section for those wanting actual critiques/comments. Until that day (if it comes) I will be happy to keep going and commenting/rating as I have time. Thanks for reading, and thanks for the opportunity for an interesting debate. Anthea :)</p>

[jgalyon]

<p>Anthea, I'm one of the resident insomniacs of the community and just found your comments. First of all, welcome to the community! You covered a lot of territory in your response, which I think is great...but admittedly, I'm tired...going to try to get some sleep, so I won't try to cover everything you had to say, but will comment briefly.</p>

<p>You said you had been holding back on participating in discussions, ratings,etc. I think that has probably been a wise decision in one sense. You've given yourself time to observe, to gain some understanding of how things work, and just get a general "feel" for things before jumping in with both feet. Glad you stepped out and contributed tonight. Your comments reflect the fact that you put some thought into the discussion at hand. As to feeling inadequate in regard to offering critiques...many of us feel that way. (me for one) I would suggest that you find some members whose critiques impress you as being knowledgable and constructive and read those critiques, using them as a learning tool. Then, when you feel you'd like to offer a critique yourself...just do it! You just have to get past your apprehensions and fears. Just an opinion...but actually critiquing photographs is the best way to learn to...critique photographs! One of those things that we learn best by doing. Even if you're a novice photographer...your comments and critiques can be very valuable to even the best photographer. One thing novices have in their favor is that their views and tastes aren't so much shaped by years of reading about photography and listening to other photographers talk about the dos and don'ts regarding what is a good or bad photograph. I'm not implying that you can't or shouldn't learn from others...just saying that the longer some of us are photographers, the more we hear what others think...the more difficult it can become to separate our own tastes from that of others.</p>

<p>More than I intended to say....I'm off to try to get some sleep!</p>

[aginbyte]

<p>Interesting subject, John. Am one of those that seldom comments on individual photographs that I find uninteresting or "bad". Prefer to look at the portfolio and try to comment on that body of work instead, to try to provide some direction if possible. Often send a personal email instead of posting; though I am willing to conduct my education in public, some may wish not to do so. But in any case, the post or email is generated by the sense of the intent and ambition of the photographer, not necessarily the individual photograph. </p>

[hjoseph7]

<p>"In a recent thread a member brought up (what they considered to be fact) that no one <em><strong>ever</strong></em> comments on "bad" photographs that are posted on P.net....because it is a "waste of their time". "<br>

if a picture is Outrageously bad, then I coment on it because I feel the person who posted is either not serious, or is not quite aware why they are posting on PN. </p>

[bill_from_new_york_city]

<p >I do not see bad photographs. What I see are some photographers are being lazy and not trying hard to create a photograph. So I do not bother saying anything when the photographer is not trying and does not edit/review their photo seriously.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >I am still amazed that some photographer think because the have atttractive model in their photograph that alone makes it a good. Really? They should put the camera on a tripod, set the shutter button to go off in five minutes and go have a beer while the model poses before the shutter goes off. What comment should I make on the photo that that model is hot?</p>

<p > </p>

<p >But I make a comment when I think the photographer is trying with their photograph, what I do not like about the photograph and how I think it could improve. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >By studing other photographers I can learn to improve my photographs. But with lazy photographers there is nothing to learn.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >Bill</p>

[vancouverphotographer]

<p>John, interesing spinoff thread ... your comment on serious critiques made me wonder about how any image can be critiqued whether or not it's been submitted for critique.<br>

Bill, your example of model shots seems to be directed at me LOL</p>

 

[mt4x4]

<blockquote>

<p>One problem is that we need a system that distinguishes between critique requests and teaching requests. The current system doesn't do this.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I couldn't agree more. Great point Lex. It seems that there are many great/experienced photographers where who make their best efforts to help out us newbies. A teaching/learning critique forum would be great. This would be amazing, because it would sort out the "I need some help here" requests from the "I just want some ratings" requests.<br /> <br /> Great idea Lex.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>There are too many vague "All comments appreciated" or just "Comments?" remarks in critique requests.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I did this at first, but mostly because I didn't know better. Now I ask more specific questions when asking for a critique. My results have been much better. Maybe a reminder (when posting a critique) with a list of sample questions would be helpful?</p>

[Jeff Lear]

<p>I'm off to search for bad photographs!</p>

<p>One thing I would like to see is an alert or notification system (similar to facebook) where you are informed of comments. I know there's a check box somewhere that sends you an email or something but it's cumbersome, IMO. I have 98 photographs in my portfolio and sometimes find comments that are months old that I never knew about until I happened to be browsing my own portfolio.</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p>Jeff--</p>

<p>Click on "My Workspace" at the top right of most PN pages.</p>

<p>Then scroll down that Workspace Page, your own home page as it were, to the gray band that has the subhead "Photo Critiques."</p>

<p>That gives you an updated list of all of your photos that have been commented on, the most recently commented-upon photo being at the top of the list.</p>

[ilkka_nissila]

<p>The problem with giving negative comments or criticism is that most people react in a retaliatory way to it. I.e. they'll find your best pictures and rate them 3/3 or worse. And leave negative comments. People want praise and that's the only reason they post online. They don't want criticism. If you give them that they'll go to war.</p>

[jgalyon]

<p>I'm glad to see the number of responses since i signed off early this morning. After reading all of your comments it became very obvious that we all offer comments (or don't offer comments) for a variety of reasons. In fact the entire process each of us employ in regard to offering comments/critiques varies widely. So rest assured, the intent of this voluntary committment isn't to suggest that anyone makes sweeping changes in how they presently deal with comments/ critiques. The intent is to simply encourage the community to not neglect the photographers who are new to the craft, or for whatever reason...aren't putting up those 7/7 photographs and might need some help. At present, it seems that those who need the most help get the least. Committing to commenting on equal numbers of bad...and good photographs is just a suggestion to be used to keep ourselves honest...(with ourselves), not a means of checking up on each other.<br>

Dennis, You stated that you seldom rate individual photographs, but I see your entire method of offering comments/critiques to be even better...much better than simply rating one photograph at a time. I plan on purposing to think more in terms of the entirety of the photographer's work, and less on the single photograph. I like this philosophy.</p>

<p><em>if a picture is Outrageously bad, then I coment on it because I feel the person who posted is either not serious, or is not quite aware why they are posting on PN. </em><br /><em></em><br>

<br />Harry, if I feel that the person isn't being serious...i don't bother to offer anything. As to the last portion of your comment...not certain what you mean. Thanks for your input!</p>

<p> <em>I do not see bad photographs. What I see are some photographers are being lazy and not trying hard to create a photograph. So I do not bother saying anything when the photographer is not trying and does not edit/review their photo seriously.</em><br>

<em></em> <br>

Bill, I think most of us have seen photographs that for whatever reason, we were convinced that it was bad due to shear laziness...and i've ignored many shots for that very reason. But saying that every bad photograph is the result of laziness is a statement that just doesn't hold water, and is quite unfair. The most obvious example for me would be: there are new members who may have made their first attempt at taking a really good photograph this week...or today, who then post that photograph for critique...and the photograph may be incredibly bad...a real stinker. Was that shot the result of laziness? I'd bet good money that it's the result of not knowing what the hell they're doing...wouldn't ya think? Not laziness. As for not taking the editing/reviewing of their photographs seriously...they probably have very little concept of what either of the terms even mean, much less how to actually properly review or edit. Not trying to offend, but I find a better example of laziness might be writing off all bad photographs as the result of a lazy photographer instead of trying to find as much information as possible about who took the photograph before making a judgement. My mother is 81...not a lazy bone in her body...consistently takes horrible photographs...and thinks everyone of them is an artistic masterpiece...especially those of her one-eyed cat. But all that said....I'm with you, not much patience for people who are simply lazy and trying to pass off work that shows it.</p>

<p> Keith, I agree with you...who agrees with Lex.... ;)</p>

<p> Jeff, This might help you. But if I'm wrong...everybody jump in and set me straight. If <strong>you</strong> leave a comment for each photo in <strong>your</strong> portfolio, such as... "please view larger"...a note about the photo...whatever - that comment will then appear in your workspace ("my workspace") under the heading of photo critiques. From that point forward, any subsequent comments will be listed under photo critiques each day and you'll be able to know each time anyone comments. <br /><em></em></p>

[dan_south]

<p>I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. I think people come here primarily to share information and enjoy themselves, not to be raked over the coals. I'm not qualified to make an assessment of someone else's work, anyway (i.e. no MFA degree).</p>

<p>"Bad" photos come from a few different sources, and you have to handle them all differently.</p>

<p>First, there's the person who's starting out and knows that they need to improve but maybe doesn't know how to approach it. I might offer this person some constructive criticism, but I don't want to discourage them. I took a LOT of REALLY BAD photos for many years before I became an enthusiast and put some work into improving my photography. I'm glad that people didn't discourage me from putting in the effort required to improve. Besides, the person who feels that they need to improve will learn more from a class or a workshop than from any hurriedly posted internet comment.</p>

<p>Next, there are the people who seem to be completely clueless that their work is bad. Some of them are even charging customers for these "bad" photos. I really don't know what to say in this instance. The photographer probably wouldn't accept a critique anyway because they don't realize that their output is substandard.</p>

<p>But I would say that the WORST photos that I've ever seen were on display in museums. Poorly focused, randomly composed rubbish deemed by some wacky cruator to be works of art. These people are getting recognition (and possibly money) for their bad photos, so who am I to judge? I have enough trouble getting someone to pay for photos that are as technically adept as I can make them. If somebody has a knack for getting rich people to buy fuzzy, blurry shots of poorly composed objects in bad light, well, that person must be a lot smarter than I am, so I'm just going to keep my mouth shut.</p>

<p>;-)</p>

 

[jgalyon]

<p><em>The problem with giving negative comments or criticism is that most people react in a retaliatory way to it. I.e. they'll find your best pictures and rate them 3/3 or worse. And leave negative comments. People want praise and that's the only reason they post online. They don't want criticism. If you give them that they'll go to war.</em></p>

<p>Ilkka...do I detect the smoldering aroma of cynicism wafting through the room? ;) My honest reaction is: Who cares if some idiot rates my best pictures with a 3/3...or worse...or that God forbid... they leave those terrible "negative remarks"? Would my life be so irrevocably damaged that I might never recover? Would I become so depressed that I would beat myself into a coma with my Nikon? Don't think so.</p>

<p><em>People want praise and that's the only reason they post online</em><br>

<em></em> <br>

One question. Think on it hard and long before answering. Does that statement apply to forum postings as well as well as photographs?</p>

<p><em></em> <br>

<em>They don't want criticism. If you give them that they'll go to war.</em></p>

<p><br />Three words... "stick and stones".</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p>"I'm not qualified to make an assessment of someone else's work, anyway (i.e. no MFA degree)." --Dan South</p>

<p>Dan--</p>

<p>I offer a relevant anecdote. I had jury duty yesterday and a prospective juror told the judge how smart the judge and the lawyers seemed to be and when the judge was telling us about the difference between "preponderance of the evidence" and "reasonable doubt" and was also describing the difference between "reasonable doubt" and "any possible doubt" the woman became overwhelmed by her own lack of knowledge about these things. The judge then almost poetically reminded her that our system very intentionally does not want professionals deciding criminal cases. What's key is common sense and the ability of one's peers to pass judgment. The judge, the professional and educated one, is NOT the one who decides the guilt or innocence.</p>

<p>Now it is true that someone without much photographic experience or technical knowledge might not want to start advising someone about what exposure or lens to use, but they can certainly be helpful by simply stating what they see when they look at a certain photograph, what things stand out to them, if anything feels like it's missing, whether a photo makes them sad, afraid, uptight, or angry. That genuine and honestly-given information will often be of as much if not more benefit to the photographer asking for critique than all the "you-shouldn't-have-blown-the-highlights" or "I'm-an-experienced-photographer-and-I-would-have-cropped-the-scene-this-ways" in the world. I'm not minimizing what helpful experienced photographers can offer, mentors can be amazingly valuable. But innocent genuine reactions have their place as well.</p>

<p>Besides, as others have stated in other places, the non-professional, non-MFA person giving a critique stands to learn a lot simply by looking carefully enough to make some coherent comments. It's one thing to pass by a photo and say only to yourself "I like that," it's another to then articulate publicly why and what you feel or see.</p>