Want your next camera made in Japan?

[jeff_z.]

<p><!--StartFragment--><br>

In the West, there was a huge struggle that had to be won before the formation of a middle class could take place. At least we had a democracy and rule of law by that time that could be utilized for justice. China does not have these things, not even a free press, and their internet is censored... Dissent has severe penalties there, often including jail. The relative economic prosperity they have achieved (and I agree with the previous poster that a very strong case could be made that it is at least largely, at our expense) has only strengthened the current regime’s policies, not brought about reform, as was hoped for by many.</p>

<p>Consider what it must be like for virtually any manufacturer in the West operating under relatively very progressive labor and environmental laws, to compete with the firms in China that are “unburdened” by these things, and which also have the benefit of a government that practices currency manipulation to give even further competitive advantage…</p>

<p>And it is no accident that China is the world’s dirtiest nation. While we celebrate cleaner waterways here in the States due to environmental laws largely enacted decades ago, and often strengthened since, what do you think is going on in China? “Dirt being swept under the rug...”? G<em>lobal</em> warming?</p>

<p>I completely agree with the posters that have said it is all about profit, and would add: <em>shortsighted profit</em>. And of course, with no regard to the Golden Rule, environment, human rights, or rule of law so long as it is to these corporations' advantage to do so... I am not racist nor making an issue of quality. It is simply an immoral and unfair playing field that this vitally important game is being played out upon, with far too many losers, and very, very few winners.</p>

<p>If this playing field were leveled by international governmental action, everyone would be much better off in every sense, and that is what needs to happen, in my view.</p>

<p>In the mean time, especially given our government’s inability to act (witness the recent position collapses on Chinese human rights abuses by two of our major political figures, after both had extensive histories of speaking up, because China now has so much economic clout), it is up to the individual to follow their conscience on this. I look at every label.</p>

<!--EndFragment-->

 

[andrew_gale]

<p>This is not a racial issue as people from both China and Japan are Asian. I believe that people dislike China because of the long standing, American tradition of hating communism.</p>

<p>Having friend from both countries I can tell you that from an environmntal point of view, nature is thanking canon. While china's environmental laws have been described to me as "nonexistant," those form Japan have reported that the government and the people both work very hard to keep the nation (besides Tokyo, they try but with so many people its hard) clean from polution.</p>

[JDMvW]

<p>Most of my cameras, save a few digital ones, were made in the Deutsche Demokratische Republik, by peace-loving workers who were carefully and tenderly looked after by representatives of the Ministerium für Staatssicherheit. They were also shielded by the Antifaschist Protection Wall. So what could possibly be nicer?</p>

<p>BTW, I know Asians who are definitely prejudiced against Asians of different nationality.<br /> Americans love China, by the way, they just had trouble figuring out <em>where</em> it was. The People's Republic of the Korean War was just a momentary blip in a long Sino-American love fest (admittedly, mostly better called <em>lust</em> for such a huge market on the part of American capitalists, but still...). Pearl Buck and Madame Chiang, and even John Birch, you know.</p>

<p>-</p>

<p>Note: yes, it is late and I <em>am</em> in kind of a strange mood. Perhaps it was the braunschweiger I had for lunch...</p>

[michael_kuhne]

<p>It is a matter of trust. For example, Swiss craftsmanship established itself decades ago worldwide, as being of the best quality. If a Swiss company of long standing decided to move its production to Taiwan, Viet Nam or Australia, it would certainly risk a reduction in confidence by its customers!</p>

<p>Actually, Al V, high school biology of the 1930's 40's and 50's taught that we are all of the same <em>species, </em>not all of the same race. Race is not specifically of nationality or ethnicity, but a biological set of dominant physical characteristics having evolved in various climates for adaptation. There are sub-strata under the main divisions- as in Europe there are both the nordic and the southern caucasians. The subsequent dumbing down and ridiculous kissing up to politically correct nonsense has led to confusion of these matters now being taught, as well as of much else. Students of today don't even know what penmanship is- can't actually write, instead printing like chicken scratch and relying on the computer.</p>

<p>I agree with Jeff Z. and much of what Andrezej have said. Pride in workmanship is in danger of taking a back seat to cheap labor and more profit. </p>

<p> </p>

[rick_m.]

<p>I would like to caution folks that the overheated rhetoric is not helping at all. REAL racism and REAL xenophobia are REALLY bad things. Attempting to discuss whether manufacturing practices may vary from country to country is neither racist nor xenophobic and the more we dilute these terms the more trivial they become. </p>

<p>Though companies like Nikon and Canon have every reason to maintain high standards there are always compromises in business. It is absurd to maintain that every country can produce every product to the same standards. There are always trade-offs. Manufacturing methods and practices in one country may be superior to another but the multi-national making the business decision to use one factory over another may choose "good enough" over better for economic reasons.</p>

<p>I am old enough to remember when 'made in Japan' was a joke in the US. I have also come to very much respect Japan's state-of-the-art factories, exceptional manufacturing practices and dedicated work force. So when I see 'Made in Japan" on a product now it gives me confidence in its initial quality. I feel the same way about Germany, Switzerland and the USA (and a few others) as well. I will concede that one could argue these beliefs but my experience will probably argue more persuasively on a personal level.</p>

<p>So if the new camera were made in Japan rather than Thailand or China this would tend to inspire in me confidence in its quality. And I am far from alone.</p>

<p>I will leave the child labor and human rights arguments to others. It would be hypocritical of me to base a camera purchase on human rights issues while filling my Prius with Saudi oil. (you know Saudi Arabia....that bastion of womens rights and universal sufferage.) So I will let others natter on about that stuff. But come on folks. It is time we reserved the term racist for racists. </p>

[anatole]

<blockquote>

<p>This model is also related to corruption of local authorities, "buying the laws and rights restricted to the poorer ones", and has nothing to do with helping undeveloped nations.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Andrzej - you make some valid points, but I think you are overly pessimistic. Yes, virtually all firms are driven by a profit motive, and the act of outsourcing is entirely linked with this. However, the governments generally attempt to maximise the welfare of their citizens. This can be seen in the Western world, but is also the case in many undeveloped countries. The fact is, China realises that its main potential for GDP growth is through developing its export market. It therefore has more relaxed regulation, etc. in order to maintain lower costs for firms, and entice them to outsource their production to China. This aim, in the long term, will be the most beneficial for China's citizens; for income per capita will grow, and the quality of life will go up. You cannot expect developing countries to purely follow a route for welfare maximisation, for such a view is very short sighted. Also, relating directly to the above quote, corruption is hardly a problem for China: recently, a senior government official was executed due to corruption charges. It is their government policy which is more shocking than anything, but I still believe that the aim of welfare maximisation (in the long run) remains the Chinese government's priority.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>And it is no accident that China is the world’s dirtiest nation. While we celebrate cleaner waterways here in the States due to environmental laws largely enacted decades ago, and often strengthened since, what do you think is going on in China? “Dirt being swept under the rug...”? G<em >lobal</em> warming?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Jeff - you realise that America remains the largest polluter in the world? On a per capita basis, China pollutes about 1/20th of what each American pollutes; therefore, the title of "world's dirtiest nation" still belongs to the Americans.</p>

[steve m smith]

<blockquote>

<p>What the hell does drywall or children's toys in China (which was an issue of lead being in the paint) have to do with the quality of the Nikon plant in Thailand?!? That's quite a big leap in (the utter lack of) logic.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>It's as illogical as me thinking all Americans are loud and arrogant just because I met a couple like that once.</p>

[andrzej_maciejewski]

<p>Anatole - thx for reading my memo. By all means, I do not pretend to be an expert in political and economic matters. I only express my concerns and ideas. I am 54 now and I think I have seen quite a bit of history in various regions of this planet. Plus I am an avid reader of history. Unfortunately this forum is no good place to elaborate about modern politics. It is a photographic forum and it should remain such. My pessimism is substantiated by number of observations in this day and age of our civilization. I will only address two things to show my concerns.<br>

- election of politicians to our governments. It is well known that, and I mean it, the size of budget of election candidates relates to their success in given election. And who do you think contributes the most of monies for this purpose? The middle class members, the poor ones or the banks and corporations? And why would they give so much money if there was no profit to be hoped for later on? Isn't this a form of buying laws and rights for specifically small and selected groups of people? Isn't this a mechanism to start wars that would be beneficial to certain people at cost of killing so many others. Consider Henry Kissinger and his Nobel Price for Peace in Vietnam. Isn't this a joke? This man actually caused the war to be prolonged and decided on massive bombing innocent civilians in Cambodia and further disasters in this region. Study this problem on your own and you will realize the truth. If you think that the governments are independent of rich supporters you are living in Utopia. The truth is that our governments are controlled by rich and super rich individuals. And why there is such a fear of communism or socialism? Have you asked yourself about this? If there is a poor and corrupted system, inferior to our capitalism then we should not be afraid of that system, right. Everybody can see for himself/herself what this system gives. On the other hand, existence of a competitive system would give us, the middle class and poor ones better conditions of life. This is quite natural. So why to go to war with them? Why to kill people and eliminate the competition? The answer is only one. We are told to remove competition, before we even understand what it means, so our situation will be worse and we become subject of manipulation and have no other option.<br>

- our legal system. Many of readers would already admit, that yes, we have a problem here. Yet the justice is our utmost hope for solving our problems. And we are deprived from that hope as well. If you don't believe me, go ahead and write about this issue and you may get overwhelmed with evidence that you may be wrong. Or may be our photographic community is somehow immune to legal issues.<br>

Someone may say, Andrzej is crazy. What Canon or Nikon has to do with politics? I will only add one thing. The success of modern powers e.g. Great Britain, USA is strictly related to industrialization. And everything possible was done to make sure that competition would be eliminated so the powers can grow and control more and more. If you don't agree I would be happy to read what you have to say.</p>

[un_soon_choi]

<p>There is only one question for me: Do you want your camera to be more expensive? If you do, I have nothing to say. My D300 is not made in Japan, but produces a great photo. </p>

[jeff_z.]

<p><!--StartFragment--></p>

<blockquote>

<p >Jeff - you realise that America remains the largest polluter in the world? On a per capita basis, China pollutes about 1/20th of what each American pollutes; therefore, the title of "world's dirtiest nation" still belongs to the Americans.</p>

</blockquote>

<p > </p>

<p >Anatole, Where did you get the information from which you derive this statement? If you’re talking about emissions from motor vehicles, and power plants perhaps you are correct in absolute terms, I really don’t know. I’m talking about air quality in terms of it actually being blatantly hazardous to one’s health, which it clearly is, in Bejing and the industrial area. Extensive ground water pollution, to the extent that cancer rates for those unfortunate enough to live in those areas, are off the charts…</p>

<p > </p>

<p >And I’m talking about how the West has been slowly but surely cleaning up… I can think of no current example in the U.S. that compares with the magnitude of innumerable examples in China. And as mentioned, no democratic framework in place to help speed the remediation. It is a complex issue, no doubt about that as far as a solution. You might find this article of interest on the front page of today’s NY Times: </p>

<p > </p>

<p >“WASHINGTON — For months the United States and <a href="http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/china/index.html?inline=nyt-geo">China</a>, by far the world’s two biggest emitters of greenhouse gases, have been warily circling each other in hopes of breaking a long impasse on <a href="http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/science/topics/globalwarming/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier">global warming</a> policy…”</p>

<p >http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/08/world/08treaty.html?hp</p>

<p > </p>

<p > </p>

<p ><br /></p>

 

<blockquote>

<p >There is only one question for me: Do you want your camera to be more expensive? If you do, I have nothing to say. My D300 is not made in Japan, but produces a great photo.</p>

<p > </p>

</blockquote>

<p >Un-Soon Choi, I think the whole point of many of our responses is that "cheap" actually comes at a high ultimate cost.</p>

 

 

<p > </p>

<!--EndFragment-->

 

[longname]

<p>Michael K, I'd agree with you about what the books taught back in the days when race was strictly about similarities in physical description, and not very accurate either. If you were to use your definition of race and apply it to say, China or Japan, you'd find that there are many different races there, and not just generalizations on eyelid overlaps or skin shade or hair type or width of nostrils.</p>

[KenPapai]

<p>My point from a few days ago is more than proven, thanks! Dumbest thread ever (to a pointless & dubious "question") and more Long Hot Air replies than I've ever seen in EOS Forum.</p>

<p>Every heard of Politics.Net ? Go there, not here. I remain proud to sticking to the topic.</p>

[un_soon_choi]

<p>Andrew Gale,<br>

"This is not a racial issue as people from both China and Japan are Asian. I believe that people dislike China because of the long standing, American tradition of hating communism."<br>

I am not sure how your argument counter-argues the previous assumption. Jews and Germans are both Europeans. Therefore, not a racial issue? However, i agree with you in that it is different from a racial issue.</p>

<p>Jeff Z,<br>

Whatever I said above included some sarcasm. In other words, I don't understand producing in Japan makes any difference. I am not sure how my D300 and other high-end cameras of Nikon (including D3, D700 and etc) comes at a high ultimate cost. (My D300 is made in Thailand btw.) I know there is something called reliability. But knowing that Nikon (at least) gives me a product that is reliable, I don't care where it comes from. (Of course, there are some exceptions such as inhumane work environment and so forth. In this case, those are not the cases.)</p>

[dan_south]

<blockquote>

<p>Further, because many French work 32-35hours/week, should we prefer buying French products instead of ones made-in-US?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>We already do! Gitzo and DxO!</p>

[unangelino]

<p>It doesn't strike me as xenophobic to demand that my Breitling be made in Switzerland.</p>

<p><strong><em>Does the same go for my Canons and Panasonics?</em> </strong> Well, kind of.</p>

<p>For reasons known only to Canon and Panasonic both companies do tend to have their higher end gear made in the country that originated their brand. I can't say exactly why this is true for those two companies. I can say that manufacturing does become more complex and problematic as the centers of design move further from the point of manufacture.</p>

<p>I'm pretty sure that someday Canon L lenses will be made in locales other than Japan but also that there are likely good reasons why that isn't true today.</p>

[walter_strong5]

<p>"A similarly xenophobic, borderline racist thread ...................."</p>

<p>You've GOT to be kidding me!</p>

[keith_anderson7]

<p>Questioning where something is made doesn't make someone racist. I don't see that the original post made any disparaging remarks about one person or another, so why does anyone else have to escalate it to that?</p>

<p>Fact is, some countries have better manufacturing than others, depending on what they're making.</p>

<p>That said, why would anyone guess that Canon or whomever would allow their products to be made sub-standard (whether they make them in Japan, Australia, Botswana, or the North Pole)? </p>

<p>P.S. I didn't make that North Pole joke because I have a problem with little people who happen to be kind enough to help Santa out with his production or delivery pipeline, so please don't call me a bigot.</p>

[dmitrii.coclea]

<p>I live on mainland Chins for the last 8 years. Work as an interpreter for multinationals manufacturing here. My job takes me to great many factories. Because of my job I'm privy to a lot of closed issues related to manufacturing.<br>

First thought. Chinese themselves, rich, professionals, prefer to buy Japanese camera gear. It's a matter of admiration here. They all hate Japan for WW2, but still use their electronics & are paying sometimes double of what's it worth for the import duties.<br>

Second thought. There is no manufacturing culture here. Madame Mao made sure that it was eradicated. Chinese have to build it from scratch. They can built & create perfect masterpieces but only if the management is qualified & ensures that every tiniest part of the process is controlled & people are happy and paid well.<br>

One example - the second biggest factory in the coastal area where I live. Built from scratch & managed by an American of Persian descent. immaculate, perfect, blameless production. And he's the only foreigner on site for the last 15 years. A different example was my own brand new latest Cannon scanner I bought to work with my film which burned the first 3 times and the fourth one had greasy fingerprints underneath the glass....<br>

Basically, don't bash China, they can manufacture wonderful things if managed right, but invest in Japanese if you have the money.....</p>

<p> </p>

[chiny_t]

<p>My brand new 430 EXII is made in china.</p>

[steve m smith]

<blockquote>

<p>Fact is, some countries have better manufacturing than others, depending on what they're making.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That's far too much of a generalisation. In any country, UK, US, China, Japan, etc. there will be good and bad manufacturers. It's all down to quality control and training. Location has nothing to do with it.</p>

[keith reeder]

<p><b>"A similarly xenophobic, borderline racist thread ...</b>"<p>

 

<p><b>You've GOT to be kidding me!</b></p>

 

No I'm bloody not - though it is no surprise to me that you don't "get it", Walter. No surprise at all.

[keith reeder]

<blockquote>

<p>Questioning where something is made doesn't make someone racist. I don't see that the original post made any disparaging remarks about one person or another, so why does anyone else have to escalate it to that?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Because racism always "starts small".</p>

<p>If we agree - <em>and clearly, many of us do</em> - that where a product is made will have no <em>de facto</em> bearing on its quality, then it is perfectly legitimate to question the motives of a post suggesting that the country of origin has some sort of inherent - and implicitly negative - relevance.</p>

[jeff_z.]

<p>I think that the injection of charges of "racism" and "xenophobia" into this discussion are blatant red herrings.</p>

<p>Michael Kuhne stated this well in the first paragraph of one of his posts:</p>

<p>"No, automatically assuming the slant on this outlook is "racist" is insulting to those holding that outlook! And usually, those accusing others of being "xenophobic" are part of a movement with an agenda. All such accusations are hype to back people down so they can carry through with their program."</p>

<p> </p>

[keith_anderson7]

<p>Steve,<br>

It's not really about location but location is part of it. For example, the biotech capital of the world is the San Francisco Bay Area in California. There's biotech all over the place, but that area has the highest concentration of biotech companies per capita in the world. You could start a biotech company anywhere, of course, and recruit people from wherever you want, but the fact is, if you start in the SF Bay Area you'll have a bigger pool of talent, people who know the biz, people with a good set of hands in the lab, managers who know how to get things done, an extraordinary number of venture capitalists that know the business and have been around the block, etc. There's nothing magic about the Bay Area, true enough, but then again, that's about the easiest place to get started.</p>

<p>Yes, you can start a biotech company anywhere, but the Bay Area has certain advantages (human and otherwise) that aren't readily duplicated elsewhere. Note that many of the biotech folks in the bay area immigrated here for the education (Stanford, Berkeley, etc) and went on to start or join their own companies. Many are asked by their countrymen/women in the country where they originated to move back and start a company there (ie a Vietnamese entrepreneur is constantly being asked by colleagues in VN to start a company there and not in the US) but it's really hard to start biotech in VN. You don't have much infrastructure (relatively) or the same pool or experience and talent. It's also hard to recruit people to move there. No offense to VN, I think it's an up and coming economy and I enjoyed visiting there, but as a a place to go into biotech manufacturing... it's NOT GOOD.</p>

<p>There are some places in the world with better manufacturing capacity, quality, and potential than others. I'm not suggesting anything magical about a particular place on the map, but for sure some areas have developed critical mass of talent and infrastructure for certain industries. I don't see how that's refutable.</p>

[JDMvW]

<blockquote>

<p>My point from a few days ago is more than proven, thanks! Dumbest thread ever (to a pointless & dubious "question") and more Long Hot Air replies than I've ever seen in EOS Forum.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Ken. you've just GOT to lighten up. While the original post was "dubious" at best, and certainly marginally racist in tone, the subsequent discussion has been entertaining. I will grant it has wandered about like a thread in the philosophy forum, but as I said at the beginning: "WTF"</p>