Bride shopping for discounts

[bill_dewberry]

<p>Well, I am a tax and accounting CPA, and have many business clients, they do not all pay me the same rate. I have my starting hourly fee I look to get, which I keep in my head, and then I bid the job according to a somewhat gut feel on ability to pay. The way it works out, sometimes I make my margins, sometimes I'm higher, sometimes I'm lower. To me, thats just the way business works, as long as your plan works in the big picture, sometimes you will need to take somewhat of a haircut. Not apples to apples, but business is business.</p>

[eco_foto]

<p>In todays economy I would gladly give the discount,it's good business sence in these very rough times,I.M.H.O</p>

[rick_m.]

<p>Hi,</p>

<p>Call up the client and say this: </p>

<p>"<em>I can appreciate your being carefull about your money in times like this. Most of my clients are concerned with getting the best product for their money. And that brings up a question. The question is: Will the photography and package you get with my services be worth the additional 15%? Is that your question?</em> </p>

<p>If she says yes then you have turned her discount ploy into a question about your services and product. She no longer has a price objection but rather a question about your services! You should be able to review your offering and show her how you are worth your asking price. In other words simply resell her. </p>

<p>If she says no then ask her:</p>

<p><em>Then what IS your question?</em><br>

<em></em><br>

If she says that she can't afford the package that you have quoted then you say.</p>

<p>"Then your question is whether the package you have selected is the appropriate one for your budget, is that correct?"</p>

<p>If she says yes then get together to "custom design" a package for her. In this custom design you can do some discounting and let here believe that she is getting a bargain while remaining true to your pricing strategy. </p>

<p>Its all about the words. I love to turn a client's objection into a question using the technique above because the minute you do it, in the clint's mind she has a question not a price objection. And if you can't show her how you are worth 15% more than the competition then your prices are too high. I suspect you can show her how you are worth more. Using this technique you divert the discussion from the money to the service. And that is right where you want to be. </p>

[magicrathd]

<p>I am not a wedding photographer, nor do I make my living from photography, though I do make my living in business and I just don't understand some of the responses here. I doubt that many of us payed "full MSRP" on our car, our TV or our CAMERA - yet many respondants here seem to think you shouldn't budge and "call her [bride] on her claim," and that just doesn't sound like good advice to me. Michelle - I also don't know your market/schedule/etc. So if you're literally beating customers away with a stick then I suppose there's no use in negotiating - but then you probably wouldn't be looking for advice if that were the case. At the risk of assumptions... someone interested in your highest priced package is a desirable client. And frankly, in today's economy - I'd question any client in any business who isn't at least trying to make smart decisions. In business, I've always felt that the best negotiations happen when each side leaves feeling that they sacrificed a little... and got a little. So I do agree that I wouldn't simply accept the 15% reduction. I'd think that offering a perk is along the right track - but my guess is that if it weren't about the money - she'd have asked for the perks. So I'd give a little - and ask her to do the same. Without knowing your costs/pricing - I'd try something like 5% discount and 1 free print. Or... "we can reduce the cost by 10%"... then reduce the package(time or prints) by 5% or something like that. She feels good that she got something and you landed a top paying gig by adjusting a little. I agree you don't want her to tell her friends "be sure to get the 15% discount" - but it would seem to me that you do want the "She was great - she was willing to work with us." My brother/sister-in law just went through this and every bride is on a strict budget, then they start evaluating what their "reach" items are. In my brother's case - they "reached" on the photographer, knowing they could have gotten a "very good" photographer for much less. It sounds as though you're their "reach" (I don't know your competition) so I would be creative in figuring out how to help them feel ok with that.<br>

Just my $.02, again, I'm not "in the business"</p>

[neilambrose]

<p>I agree with Andy's comment above. I always approach every client as an individual and try and figure out what we both need to get from the deal. I seldom move much on price, but I often move on value - sometimes offering substantial incentives that are ratcheted on different levels of service. In other words, pay more, get more... It leads to creative discussions, high levels of customer satisfaction, and lets me be flexible on the clients I attract without having to suffer financially. </p>

[irusan]

<p>Two things came to mind after reading Andy's post (along with a few others:</p>

<p>First, Andy is correct that I didn't pay the list price on my car. BUt car sales is an industry where negotiating is an expected part of the process.</p>

<p>Now, I actually got home about 20 minutes ago from grocery shopping. Does anyone here think that I took my basket of groceries to the cahsier and said "I'd like 20% off the price" and expect to get it? Granted, they will match prices on items that are the exact same, but the burden is on me to provide details.</p>

<p>So, just because some industries expect and reward haggling, not all do.</p>

<p>Secondly, I am getting the sense that people may be confusing "not giving a discount" with "refusing to negotiate." I think that most of us here (certainly myself) will negotiate with a client if there are circumstances where we need to adjust a package based on their budget.</p>

<p>However, I won't hand out discounts just because the client asks for it. That gives the impression that my rates are not well thought out and I am just pulling numbers out of my butt in the hopes that people will pay them.</p>

<p>I fully appreciate the idea that we're in tough economic times and the sense that if you drop your rates you can get more business. If that's what people choose to do, then that's their choice. However, once the economy rebounds, I think it will be extremely difficult to get your rates back up.</p>

[aimee_pieters]

<p>You can adjust your rates by changing your offerings. While an 8x10 is and 8x10, a package, collection or level of coverage can be adjusted. It's never a good idea to just raise an existing offering by 15% or 20% or whatever. I've set up my pricing structure so that whenever a prospective bride say to me "You did my friend Mary's wedding last year and it was $250 less", my response is "The level of coverage you're looking at now has an additional "yaddayaddayadda." I do have a level of coverage that's the same price your friend Mary paid and it includes....(whatever you want, but LESS than Mary received).<br>

So to summarize, she can have a larger coverage than her friend, or she can pay the same price as her friend and receive a bit less. Always try to avoid the apples-to-apples comparisons. It's been working for me for a long time....-Aimee</p>

[ty_mickan]

<p>Michelle, give an inch and they'll take a mile. Stick to your guns.</p>

[eric merrill]

<p>Michelle:</p>

<p>I would not give an outright 15% discount. Unlike "good" sales men, I don't build in automatic price gouging into my business plan so that I can "discount" down to what my prices should be. I find that to be dishonest and against my ethics.</p>

<p>If a client is wanting to buy multiple prints, I will discount those because my pricing structure is built on the amount of time I put into creating a print. Multiple prints don't require extra time, so I discount those.</p>

<p>I will work with clients to customize my packages and remove products and services to bring the price down to a level they can live with. To me, that isn't discounting.</p>

<p>I'm not saying everybody should operate like this. You asked how we each handle the situation, and this is what I do. If I can't operate my business in a way that I view as being ethically sound, I will find another way to make money. So far, my way works for me.</p>

<p>Eric</p>

[kelly_flanigan1]

<p>Gee; I thought this was about shopping for discount brides.</p>

[kiva]

<p><strong>"She just emailed to say that she has met with other photographers that are willing to offer her 15% off, and am I willing to do the same?"</strong></p>

<p>I've not read any other messages in this thread other than the question at the beginning. I can say that my experience is that the above is a planned and calculated way brides are currently being instructed on how to lower the price.</p>

<p>Just a few weeks or so ago I had a bride visit me ... we had a great meeting. Later she called and told me that I was the one for her wedding photography; she said she'd be in contact about the contract.</p>

<p>A few days later I got a call and she was bargaining me and telling me that she had "other photographers" that were willing to make a deal. All she wanted was for me to give her a $150 discount in place of my normal offer of "free engagement" photos. So, she wanted me to gift her $150 in place of me doing a free engagement session!</p>

<p>I respectfully tried to explain. She refused to understand my position.</p>

<p>End result: I very graciously gave her my very best wishes for her upcoming wedding. </p>

<p>I know that $150 is not much but it just becomes a matter of principle at some point. I'm mature enough to know when I'm being scammed and I don't really need to see what else this bride might have in store for me. I've only done this a few times but in every case I later found out that I was "lucky" to have passed this one up.</p>

[jennifercatron]

<p>I offer discounts for the following reasons, having a wedding during November, January and February, as well as brides that are willing to schedule their weddings on days other than Saturdays. If brides truly need the discount they can get a discount at most venues and with all the other expenses. If they have to be married on a Saturday in May, well then they obviously don't NEED the discount as bad as they think they do.</p>

[john_h.1]

<p><em>And before someone yells...that is unethical, let me note; this is a very, very common business practice.</em><br>

<em></em><br>

Why would anyone yell, much less even discuss ethics? Its not relevent. </p>

<p>Up-pricing to set a price bargaining posture is common in some businesses but not others. I don't think there will be much enthusiam here to invite this practice to be standard operating procedure here. But, who knows, with all the undercutting, Uncle Bobism and work for free stuff that people believes to go on, this could turn in to a broader trend in afterall when people feel desperate. </p>

[William Michael]

<p> <br>

<a href="http://www.photo.net/photodb/user?user_id=768369">Rob Domaschuk</a> wrote:<strong><em> "I am getting the sense that people may be confusing "not giving a discount" with "refusing to negotiate." "</em></strong><br>

<br>

Yes. I get that impression also. <br>

<br>

I was quite precise in my choice of words, in my previous - and just as precise in my advice as to how to choose and leverage any subsequent negotiation which might ensue. <br>

<br>

WW</p>

<p > </p>

 

[albert_richardson1]

<p>I'm not a wedding photographer either, but this discussion does bring up some interesting points.</p>

<p>In my business, we ask to see a customer's written quote from a competitor when it comes to price matching. We do give quotes ourselves so we are not trying to freeze them out by asking for the impossible. We are a brick-and-mortar establishment and so we will not try to compete with Internet sellers on price. (This is to suggest that there might be fly-by-night and cut-rate photraphers you would not compete with on price either.)</p>

<p>Aren't clients waking away from you because they are unwilling to pay your prices? People simply are not spending their money. Our business has been down for months. Although there is speculation that "things will get better (in the 2nd half of 2009 .... by the end of the year ... in 2010)" we have seen only a slight improvement in our revenues. You can't tell me you're still running your air conditioning!</p>

<p>Price is one of the most effective and powerful tools you have to draw in your client and close the deal. Many small businesses do a lousy job of cost accounting. Once you get beyond a one man shop with a simple ledger you enter a confusing arena of hidden and incidental costs that you may not recognize until you have to actually pay for something. There is a lot to be said for keeping your prices up no matter what, but offering extras instead of a discount could cost you more out of pocket in the long run.</p>

<p>There is a lot of advice and scripting in this thread designed to present the idea that one's established prices must be paid as matter of principle. This climate fosters the consumer idea that there is no reason to ever pay the asking price for non-essential services - as a matter of principle.</p>

<p>Aimee's strategy is similar to the one electronics retailers use. A flexible pricing plan is also confusing. Similar items have custom codes in each store, and each company has its own pricing plans. Customers can do comparison shopping to a point, but will eventually settle for certain features and benefits offered in the setting that feels the most comfortable. Her strategy of never offering apple to apple comparisons does just this. In the end her customer becomes satisfies that she is being reasonable and will buy from her anyway.</p>

[albert_richardson1]

<p>I want to apologize for being interrupted. I hope that it is clear that I think Aimee is on to something with her approach. She is able to separate herself from the competition and establish herself as a clear provider of outstanding value for her clients.</p>

<p>Threads like this one seem to always ignore the 800 pound gorilla in the room. The economy itself is failing. This is bigger than any one business. Good people with businesses that were healthy and prosperous eighteen months ago are now going under. The question isn't a matter of keeping up prices when clients want discounts, it's how to keep paying clients on the books. The immediate effect of this turn of events is a tremendous pressure to reduce prices to do the best you can to keep prospects from turning your proposals down. Everyone is being forced to cut back to live within the limits of their new means.</p>

<p>Oddly there is a counter-current of price increases taking place as companies try to make back the money they have lost in the poor economy. The strategy is to make the items that do sell pay for more by bringing in more money. Business income models are based on ever increasing gross revenues. Profitable businesses have faltered because they missed their growth projections. There seems to be no acceptable way for business to shrink except to make sharp drastic cuts. This is all big stuff, but there is a question hidden here for the small business as well, namely, "What is the most successful plan for my business to grow smaller in order to endure the hard times now at hand?" I am reminded of seeds in the desert that lie inert until the next seasonal rains fall. (Perhaps this is a little too poetic for such serious concerns.) </p>

<p>It is possible to drive away the last person who will ever think of becoming your client. In prosperous times this kind of thought is likely to be an idle waste of time, but now, to get up on your high horse and demand that someone should pay your price or else...? Or else what? They should help put you under? Somewhere in the back of your mind you have to be aware of the chance you're taking. 100% of nothing is nothing!</p>

[onewish]

<p>I wanted to buy some shirts at the flea market, $20 for 3 was the asking price. I asked my cousin if I should negotiate and get the price down to $18 for 3. He told me that you got to give something to get something, so make it $24 for 4, that way both parties win.</p>

<p>The first poster suggested offering a perk, such as a free 16x20 print. Instead, offer it at a discount, that way both of you get a little more out of the deal.</p>

[lindsay_dobson]

<p>In general, clients are not business owners and (understandably) have no notion of what it will cost a professional photographer to shoot their event. I think the general premise is that we require nothing more than a camera and a few lenses, and that we are rolling in profit. Client education is an important part of the process and I am happy to explain why I will not (and cannot) reduce my fees. If their budget is too tight to allow them what they want, then I will do my best to amend the service and products to suit their purse, or to offer an incentive to a potential high-spender. If the couple are still determined to push for a price cut, I will then politely suggest they look elsewhere.</p>

[William Michael]

<p>Generalizations:</p>

<p>I think it is important to realize that a business can only sell one of three different "boxes", in simple terms their box will contain either:<br>

Type one box: Goods only<br>

Type two Box. Services only<br>

Type three box: both goods and services in a usually in a fairly constant proportion.</p>

<p>Most Wedding Photography businesses sell a Type Three Box. Nowadays it is very likely that the % of the service component in that type three box, is greater than it was when a photographer used film - because of the amount of Post Production the Photographer now does themselves.</p>

<p>Also, most Wedding Photographers are Sole Traders, or a Simple Company with one or two employees – often an husband and wife or similar.</p>

<p>When we have a business which is moving predominately merchandise we have bought the widget for $X and we want to sell the widget for $X+Y, that is how we stay in business.</p>

<p>Sure, if we have a lot of widgets and they are not moving that is dead capital hanging around and we basically have three options –</p>

<p>. do nothing<br>

. sell a few at an inflated price to break even or better<br>

. sell the lot at a discounted price and get the cash flow going to buy more widgets, but the type the customer wants to buy.</p>

<p>And yes, there is a Gorilla in the room, all the customers are tight with their money, agreed.</p>

<p>But coming back to a Wedding Photography Business with its one or two “employees” – basically it is what those employees do with their TIME which is the widgets we are selling. That time has a cost, which eventually will be realized.</p>

<p>Now, personally I have stated and I have also reiterated I am not adverse to negotiation. I have also stated I do not discount. These two things are different . . . and I think I am pretty realistic in the value of my time, as an employee of my company, which sells me to a studio to shoot Weddings. I charge $X to the studio to cover a wedding – that is not negotiable. But hey if the couple want “this” instead of “that” or a bit longer here or for me to go there, then that’s fine and my employer knows that I will accommodate those “extras” he can sell the customer on above the “package” – and those extras have a real value to the customer.</p>

<p>Likewise, when I owned the studio, I would negotiate “price” with a client who was “price conscious” just as I outlined in my first post on this thread, above.</p>

<p>But then, just as now, if I did not (do not) shoot a Wedding because the Client said no (Studio cannot sell me out at that price) I do something else with my time, which reaps income either directly or indirectly.</p>

<p>I think this point is being overlooked.</p>

<p>Certainly 100% of nothing is nothing – but as we are primarily providing a service - it only amounts to NOTHING if nothing else income generating is being done with that time when a Wedding is not being firstly covered and then edited.</p>

<p>Certainly Selling Price is a tool which can be lowered to leverage the close – but our time is not a widget going stale on the shelf if we do not sell it at a discounted price:</p>

<p><em>it is only thus if we sit around on our bottoms moaning how tough it is we didn't get the Wedding <strong>and do nothing else income generating with that time</strong>.</em></p>

<p>This comment IMO applies equally to those Full Time in the Photography Business and those doing a gig Part time, either growing their own business whilst working a week job or, like me, experienced and now hiring themselves out.</p>

<p>I do not think we can make such definitive comparisons between Wedding Photography Businesses and primarily Stock in Store Businesses . . . and I think more attention needs to be paid to the consequences of undervaluing time (i.e. discounting the selling price of time) in a predominately a service based business, such as are now, nearly all Wedding Photography Businesses</p>

<p>WW</p>

<p> </p>

[john_h.1]

<p><em>Price is one of the most effective and powerful tools you have to draw in your client and close the deal.</em><br>

<em></em><br>

Everybody knows this. Also well known is that, in fields of individual artistic creation, one of the other most effective tools you have to draw in the client and close the deal is the artistic creation. Its not like there's a car at one store that is priced less than the exact same model at another. If one is being asked to provide a discount, they are essentially being asked to bid against unknown criteria. If someone is hurting for work then they will be more inclined to agree to lower their price but generally they can be expected to value their work based on their work's value in a certain market. Clients will hire based on willingness to pay different prices in exchange for a particular sort of result (and personality of the photograher).Typically the wedding photographer is marketing and pricing to the sector that falls in their zone of price/talent ratio. Those that bargain after learning of the price for the particular artist start to fall out of the marketing zone of the photographer. So the level of enthusiasm for posturing pricing is low in the industry as a result.</p>

<p>At least that's my theory.</p>

<p>I believe William's approach to negotiation is consistent as that can lead to mutually beneficial agreements without the photographer having to arbitrarily step down to other zone of clientele just to get clients. Adding a little extra something here or there or foregoing some service is a way to keep within the business model. If it were me, I would make alternative proposals but reject the pure price cut. It doesn't sound credible that others are all offering 15% off and again, they are not offering the same product/service anyway.</p>

[cherubinphotography]

<p>Counter offer....But only if you really want the gig. Don't cave on the 15%.</p>

[ty_mickan]

<p>Agree to the 15% and then ask the bride which part of her wedding does she want you to skimp on, or does she just want you to do 15% less than your best over the entire day.</p>

[ds_meador]

<p>Wow! I've been out of the US too long. I live in Brasil now. Here, if you ask for a discount and pay cash, you almost always get a 10% discount on just about anything.<br>

You could offer her a 10% discount if she pays in full in cash, 100% non-refundable.<br>

Just thought I'd throw in a perspective from a different culture.<br>

DS Meador</p>

[fotografz]

<p>I have a simple answer for clients that ask for a discount.</p>

<p>I am loyal to my existing clients that have signed with me. It would not be fair to them to do someone else's wedding for XX% less than they have already committed to paying.</p>

<p>If I offer some incentive, it is offered to ALL clients that sign with-in a given promotional time frame.</p>

<p>I offer free advice on timing schedules to see if they are over-buying the coverage, and often sign a client for a set shooting time with the provision that they can buy an extra hour at a set rate, but do NOT have to commit to that purchase until they are sure they need it ... usually the day of the wedding. This almost always solves the budget issue.</p>

<p>I will customize any collateral package to better meet a client's budgetary considerations. </p>

<p>In the poor economy, you have to rethink your revenue strategy.</p>

<p>For example, print sales aren't even discussed initially. Before you actually shoot a wedding you are selling an abstract commodity which is subject to competitive considerations. After you shoot, it is a tangable product, pictures of them. This is now an exclusive product and far easier to sell and increase your revenue stream.</p>

<p> </p>

[William Michael]

<p><em><strong>"In the poor economy, you have to rethink your revenue strategy."</strong></em><br>

Yes, agree 100%<br>

WW</p>