This is what happens when people stop standing up for their rights

[morgan_malaska]

<p>Wow, what a totally absurd proposal for a law. I haven't had the time, nor the energy to read through all that has been said here, but needless to say, if the law passes it's a sad day for my fellow Europeans on the other side of the North Sea. What is gained by having the possibility to persecute the press, and indeed, the average citizen in such a way? What is gained by having the possibility to lawfully control in what way the media covers the execution of governmental authority upon the people? As far as I can see, things will only be lost. And what will be lost? For me, in a social context, photography and especially photography used in the media is a form of safeguard against being wrongfully treated or having my rights violated by authority - It won't keep it from happening, but it will help the public to assert and affirm their rights and stand up against those figures of authority that have wronged them.</p>

<p>As for my own personal experiences as a photographer in tense and pressed situations I can say that I have received alot of critique and commentary from my native Swedish policemen. I've been "cornered" twice and questioned about what and why I am taking photographs, very uncomfortable situations in which the policemen seemed less than knowledgeble about the fact that my rights as a Swedish citizen allows me to photograph whatever I please, aslong as it's not a military zone of protection, but in the end I got to go about my business and continue to photograph somewhat undisturbed. So all in all, I am thankful that so far the Swedish government has continued to safeguard the rights of citizens, journalists or non-journalists, to document what they please without being subjected to the scrutiny of authoritarian nonsense.</p>

<p>All the power to British photographers, I hope you seize the oppurtunity to show your stance to the government - Freedom of press and speech should not be restricted by the (irrational?) fear of terrorism, by allowing our own rights to be limited we further the cause of those who commit terrorism, not our own struggle against it.</p>

<p>/Morgan Malaska, Sweden.</p>

[Brad_]

<p>>>> Brad tried to illustrate his refutation of the police state analogy by making a comparison to the Holocaust, which besides being in poor taste, has only confused the issue. the thing is that mass facism, death camps, etc.,</p>

<p>Nice try. You should read more carefully. I suggested the OP talk to Holocaust survivors to get a better understanding before using the phrase "police state" so casually. And, as I said above, your photo with the phrase "what if your city is becoming a "death camp" right in front of your eyes? " right above is irresponsible to the extreme. A death camp indeed...<br>

<br /><br>

>>> it's interesting how many folks here have issues with the term "police state," as if only an extreme example could validate such usage. news flash: denial is not a river in Egypt.</p>

<p>Straw man and another nice try. No one has done that. <br>

Is there a point to your BART recruitment poster photo - other than it was there and you snapped it?</p>

<p><br /></p>

[Damon DAmato]

<p>So this ain't over yet....</p>

<p>Brad, you keep talking about straw man arguments, but look at the original post.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I mean how far are we going to let the police state-ification of Western Christendom go? (speaking as an heir to our western traditions of freedom, human rights and such).</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>You could say the whole discussion of whether or not the OP said we are in a police state is based on a straw man argument.<br>

It seems to me that the OP asked how far, on a continuum between liberty and a police state, are we going to let laws like this go.</p>

<p>And with that, weeeeeeeeee're off to see the Wizard, the wonderful Wizard of Oz...</p>

[alin_daju]

<p>don't worry, apparently England will be Muslim by 2050. those guys will shut you up completelly.</p>

[joe_gallo]

<p>Damon... I was away from this thread and just checked back in... clearly state the closest I got to Gaza was "Google Images"...<br>

There is one piece of legislation that's being tested in Congress and it has to do with the so-called "Fairness Doctrine" that will specifically attack Conservative Talk Radio and not any of its more liberal counterparts. This has little to do with political opinion but with whether or not political dissent will be allowed (no matter the direction it comes from). Speech, print and image are all one. When "not sending the right message" becomes outlawed, it's only a matter of time when "sending the right message" becomes mandatory. Or, should I say, "politically correct" in the sense in which the phrase was coined.<br>

As for censorship most of us (and I'm speaking as a street photographer) have already censored ourselves. Helen Levitt may be the last street shooter to photograph children.</p>

[joe_gallo]

<p>...without fear of reprisal, insults or suspicion, that is...</p>

[Damon DAmato]

<p>Well, if you want to test the police' willingness to arrest photographers under the new law, there will be a gathering of photographers at Scotland Yard on the sixteenth. They say it's not a protest, just photography.<br>

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=47417324089&ref=share</p>

[Damon DAmato]

<p>Joe, I'm really hoping all this talk about bringing back the Fairness Doctrine is just that. I've read Obama isn't interested in the idea, but I understand he's not a fan of media consolidation, and would like to roll back some of the changes that were made that allowed for our current situation of a couple of big media companies running most of the TV, radio, newspapers, etc.<br>

Personally, I really don't like to see the government tinkering with media companies one way or the other.</p>

 

[sarah_fox]

<p>Not further argumentation, but just a suggestion to any of you UK photogs who wish to protest this new law e.g. by gathering together outside a police station and snapping away en masse: You're obviously not photographing the police if you're using an unloaded film camera!</p>

<p>Whatever you do about this thing, good luck to all of you!</p>

[joe_gallo]

<p>Obama's been President for about 2 weeks now and he's broken his promise on No Lobbyists in government... among Cabinet members and underlings the total is now up to 17. Also Pelosi is an advocate and so is Reid... I'd like to believe Obama but I think he's nothing but just another politician. He was in Chicago, at least...<br>

All mediums will suffer consequently because the idea is not so much "fairness" as it is to drive any dissenting voices underground. Thank God for the internet...<br>

UK Photographers... please report back to us with stories and pictures.</p>

[Damon DAmato]

<p>I just realized you have to have a Facebook account to view that page. (I have one for just that reason. Sometimes it's the only way to get information like this)</p>

<table border="0" cellspacing="0">

<tbody>

<tr>

<td>Host:</td>

<td><a href="http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=25441827367">Press Freedom: ‘Collateral Damage’ - A documentary film (2008).</a></td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td>Type:</td>

<td><a href="http://www.facebook.com/s.php?k=400000010&c1=4">Meetings</a> - <a href="http://www.facebook.com/s.php?k=400000010&c1=4&c2=32">Convention</a></td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td>Network:</td>

<td>Global</td>

</tr>

</tbody>

</table>

<table border="0" cellspacing="0">

<caption>Time and Place</caption>

<tbody>

<tr>

<td>Date:</td>

<td>Monday, February 16, 2009</td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td>Time:</td>

<td>11:00am - 12:00pm</td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td>Location:</td>

<td>New Scotland Yard,</td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td>Street:</td>

<td>Broadway, Westminster,</td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td>City/Town:</td>

<td>London, United Kingdom</td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td></td>

<td><a id="global_maps_link" title="View a map for this event" href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=+Broadway%2C+Westminster%2C%2C+London%2C+United+Kingdom" target="_map" title="View a map for this event">View Map</a> <a onclick="return wait_for_load(this, event, function() { return optional_drop_down_menu(this, ge('global_maps_link'), ge('maps_options_menu'), event); });"></a> <a onclick="return wait_for_load(this, event, function() { $('global_maps_link').innerHTML=tx('obj:map', {'brand':'Google'});$('global_maps_link').href='http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q\x26hl=en\x26q=+Broadway%2C+Westminster%2C%2C+London%2C+United+Kingdom';save_event_map_pref(1); });" href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=+Broadway%2C+Westminster%2C%2C+London%2C+United+Kingdom" target="_map"><img src="http://www.google.com/favicon.ico" alt="" /> Google</a> <a onclick="return wait_for_load(this, event, function() { $('global_maps_link').innerHTML=tx('obj:map', {'brand':'MapQuest'});$('global_maps_link').href='http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?formtype=address\x26address=+Broadway%2C+Westminster%2C\x26city=London\x26state=United+Kingdom\x26country=US';save_event_map_pref(2); });" href="http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?formtype=address&address=+Broadway%2C+Westminster%2C&city=London&state=United+Kingdom&country=US" target="_map"><img src="http://www.mapquest.com/favicon.ico" alt="" /> MapQuest</a> <a onclick="return wait_for_load(this, event, function() { $('global_maps_link').innerHTML=tx('obj:map', {'brand':'Microsoft'});$('global_maps_link').href='http://maps.live.com/?q=+Broadway%2C+Westminster%2C%2C+London%2C+United+Kingdom';save_event_map_pref(3); });" href="http://maps.live.com/?q=+Broadway%2C+Westminster%2C%2C+London%2C+United+Kingdom" target="_map"><img src="http://www.live.com/favicon.ico" alt="" /> Microsoft</a> <a onclick="return wait_for_load(this, event, function() { $('global_maps_link').innerHTML=tx('obj:map', {'brand':'Yahoo'});$('global_maps_link').href='http://maps.yahoo.com/?q1=+Broadway%2C+Westminster%2C%2C+London%2C+United+Kingdom';save_event_map_pref(4); });" href="http://maps.yahoo.com/?q1=+Broadway%2C+Westminster%2C%2C+London%2C+United+Kingdom" target="_map"><img src="http://www.yahoo.com/favicon.ico" alt="" /> Yahoo</a></td>

</tr>

</tbody>

</table>

<h3>Description</h3>

<p>Monday 16th February 2009 is the enforcement date for Section 76 of the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008. As the British Journal of Photography (BJP) wrote last month,<br /> <br /> “The relationship between photographers and police could worsen next month when new laws are introduced that allow for the arrest - and imprisonment - of anyone who takes pictures of officers ‘likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism’.”<br /> <br /> To read the full BJP article click on this link, <a onmousedown="return wait_for_load(this, event, function() { UntrustedLink.bootstrap($(this), "c6abd853007e73e3689b2513616fc3bc", event) });" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=836675" target="_blank">http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=836675</a> <br /> <br /> So with that the National Union of Journalists (NUJ) has teamed up with Mark Thomas (writer, broadcaster, comic and political activist), Chris Atkins (the BAFTA nominated director and writer of the feature film documentary Taking Liberties), Marc Vallée (Photojournalist) and many more for a “media event” outside New Scotland Yard on Monday 16 February 2009. <br /> <br /> The plan is simple, turn up with your camera and exercise your democratic right to take a photograph in a public place.<br /> <br /> Please note that this event is NOT a Protest! It’s just photography! See you on the 16th folks! <br /> <br /> UPDATE - 06.02.09: NUJ Media Release:<br /> <br /> “Photographers snap into action over new law” <br /> <a onmousedown="return wait_for_load(this, event, function() { UntrustedLink.bootstrap($(this), "c6abd853007e73e3689b2513616fc3bc", event) });" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.nuj.org.uk/innerPagenuj.html?docid=1104" target="_blank">http://www.nuj.org.uk/innerPagenuj.html?docid=1104</a> <br /> <br /> Comedian Mark Thomas is to join with NUJ members in an event to highlight the threat of a new UK law that could be used against press photographers taking pictures of the police.<br /> <br /> The Counter Terrorism Act allows for the arrest and imprisonment of anyone whose pictures are “likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism”.<br /> <br /> The union is joining with campaigners to organise a mass picture taking session outside London’s police HQ on Monday 16 February – the day the act becomes law.<br /> <br /> Mark – who uses his comedy act to expose state and corporate wrongdoing – will be joined outside New Scotland Yard by renowned documentary-maker Chris Atkins, NUJ vice-president Pete Murray and a bevy of photographers.<br /> <br /> Photojournalist and NUJ member Marc Vallée said: “The plan is simple, turn up with your camera and exercise your democratic right to take a photograph in a public place.”<br /> <br /> There have already been cases of photographers stopped from working by police quoting anti-terror laws. <br /> <br /> John Toner, the NUJ’s organiser who looks after freelance photographers, said: “Police officers are in news pictures at all sorts of events – football matches, carnivals, state processions – so the union wants to make it clear that taking their pictures is not the act of a criminal.<br /> <br /> “Our members are photographers – not terrorists.”<br /> <br /> Roy Mincoff, NUJ Legal Officer, said: “Photographers do not want to endanger the health and safety of the police or the public – but it is important in a democracy that they can do their jobs properly without facing unnecessary legal restrictions.”<br /> <br /> The photo taking will start at 11am outside New Scotland Yard on Broadway, London.<br /> <br /> Ends.<br /> <br /> Hosted by the National Union of Journalists and supported by the British Journal of Photography and the British Press Photographers' Association.</p>

[akajohndoe]

I have some great shots from the WTO in Seattle.

[sarah_fox]

<p>"Hosted by the National Union of Journalists and supported by the British Journal of Photography and the British Press Photographers' Association."</p>

<p>You should get great press coverage! :-D</p>

<p>Is there anything we can do from afar to help out you Brits? Sign an e-petition perhaps?</p>

 

[luca_stramare2]

<p>Inform foreign tourists, before they get in trouble. A lot of people going for example, to London, purposedly look for pictures of the local policemen.</p>

[chris_waller]

<p>The Convention on Modern Liberty takes place at the end of this month in London to address these very issues:-<br>

<a href="http://www.modernliberty.net/">http://www.modernliberty.net/</a><br>

But any self-respecting terrorist wouldn't advertise himself by carrying a camera, he'd use the one in his mobile 'phone, most of which now have at least 5 MP and some 8MP. The morons haven't realised this.</p>

[david_hill3]

<p>I'm coming to this a bit late as I just get the daily digest, but I feel moved to support Sarah's post (Feb 07, 10.02)--one of the most reasoned arguments I've seen here.<br>

<br /> Aside from the almost trivial fact that on-duty police make great photographic subjects, there are some very important principles involved here. This law smacks of the kind of law that could be selectively applied to make life very difficult for those trying to tell us the truth, whether they be professional photojournalists or simply people with cameras.<br>

<br /> That law, wording as described, does not have any place in a country that values freedom, and where the government has nothing to fear from the truth.<br>

<br /> On recent visits to the UK, there does seem to be a level of paranoia amongst officials that did not seem to exist when I was growing up there during the 1970s and 80s, at a time when terrorist activity was a regular occurrence.<br>

<br /> I'm now living in Australia, so cannot easily take part in any protests. If anyone knows of an on-line petition I can add my name to, I'd appreciate it.</p>

[chris_waller]

<p>There have been petitions, but you can email Austin Mitchell, Member of Parliament at<br>

Austin Mitchell <a href="mailto:mitchellav@parliament.uk">mitchellav@parliament.uk</a><br>

and register your views. He is a photographer himself and a campaigner against such legislation. We need to get everybody's weight behind this. This country's rapidly turning into something like the old East German Communist totalitarian tyranny.</p>

[chris_thomson]

<p>I'm in agreement with the OP and others on this one. Laws like this are definitely reason for concern and worry. While I don't feel the United States is anywhere near that of a police state laws like this and many that have been enacted in the states definitely have the potential to lead us down that slippery slope.</p>

<p>Extreemeism of any sort is generely a bad thing. On Sept. 11th 19 religious extreemists got lucky and pulled off a dramatic, dispicable, attack. A very large segment of the worlds population considers our extreme response to the event as overly dramatic and dispicable. Definitely a bad thing when your trying to convince the rest of the world your on the right side of history.</p>

<p>I digress. That's a debate for another day.</p>

<p>Our response here at home has been no less extreeme when considering the hundreds of thousands of lives that have been sacrificed over time for the freedoms we enjoy today. Human history is riffe with examples of citizen populations suffering at the hands of governments that have to much power and control over those populations. Yet there are very few, if any examples of citizen populations having the control over their governments that we enjoy today in western civilation.</p>

<p>Those of you who are okay with the Patriot Act need to check their patriotism at the door. One need only consider what our response will be if/when there is another dramatic attack. No, we are not currently living in a police state but laws that erode our civil freedoms make it possible for us to be there at the flick of a switch.</p>

<p>Modern technology has given our governments the ability to monitor all our communications, financial records, and who knows what else. What this amounts to is information. Information that can be used for political puposes if we allow our governments to erode the checks and balances that give us freedom over our governments.</p>

<p>It's too easy to say "I'm not doing anything wrong so why should I worry". I guarantee you there is someone out there who doesn't agree with what you believe or how you choose to live your life. When the political winds are driven by extreemism we should all be scared.</p>

<p>In the U.S. we will likely see a national I.D. card within the next 5-10 years. This is a result of 9/11. Would another dramatic attack allow the government to insert RF tags into those cards allowing them to monitor our whereabouts at all times.</p>

<p>Maybe they will nationalize all those IPass toll systems and mandate that everyone put a UPC bumber sticker on their car. Put barcode readers at every major intersection throughtout the U.S. and "Bang", big brothers watching you.</p>

<p>Once again, I digress (these are the things that keep me awake at night.).</p>

<p>The right to challenge (report on, protest) those who are in authority is a fundamental foundation of a free society. When governments seek to erode our ability to challenge those who are in authority we should all be afraid.</p>

 

[sarah_fox]

<p>Chris Waller and others,</p>

<p>What I'm about to say will sound paranoid on its surface, but certainly this is just a grand alignment of coincidence. I seem to have no means of communication with the outside world through email and web-based mail. I have 5 computers, multiple email accounts through different providers, back-door access to any of those accounts through web-based logins (e.g. mail2web), and all of it has come down, including the entire (extroardinarily reliable) domain host that hosts all of my web sites. (Is there some sort of virus attack afoot?) I have general web access, but that is all.</p>

<p>Not being able to email Mr. Mitchell directly, I tried emailing him through web based forms. That didn't work either, and I can't imagine why not, unless there is some error in his web forms. I have been trying to debug the problem from my end for nearly two hours now (not just to write Mr. Mitchell, but to establish ANY email contact with the outside world, as I have clients who depend on me). Honestly, I'm wondering whether this post will even get through. (If it doesn't, then I'm gonna get a bit freaky.) Let's give it a try...</p>

[sarah_fox]

<p>(Phew!)</p>

<p>So is there some sort of virus hitting servers everywhere? What gives? (Sorry for the OT, but I suppose the "on" topic part of this is a simple logistic question of how I can write to Mr. Mitchell, since nothing in the internets and connected tube doohickeys thing seems to work for me.)</p>

[akajohndoe]

You might want to run a scan of you computer(s), it is good practice to do so regularly anyway, but a systemic problem like that really sounds more like an ISP problem.

[sarah_fox]

<p>It's selective. I can ping some servers and can't ping others (from the command prompt, of course). Truly weird. It's all the weirder because I don't give my machines access to each other, and only two of them are email-capable. The remaining computers aren't even "allowed" to do general web browsing but are dedicated to specific tasks. (But yes, I'm scanning right now for viruses).</p>

[Carl Stone]

<p>"What I'm about to say will sound paranoid on its surface, but hopefully this is<br>

just a grand alignment of coincidence. I seem to have no means of<br />communication with the outside world through email and web-based mail."</p>

<p>Photo.net is not the best resource for your problem. You should contact your ISP, and go from there. And, yes, your post does sound paranoid. </p>

[sarah_fox]

<p>Ah, it all seems to come down to a check on my sender email address via all these redundant routes. When my domain host is querried as to the validity of my sender address, there is no reply (because the server is down), so the email gets rejected. Same issue with the web based forms. This is apparently some new security implementation that verifies senders are real (which is probably a really good idea). Unfortunately when your domain's server is down, you're really dead in the water!</p>

[sarah_fox]

<p>Thanks for that, Carl. I had already ruled out any problem with the ISP. PN was the only route of communication with anything anywhere that worked. It was only through posting here that I was finally able to debug the problem (but I admit I should have posted something onto another thead). Sorry for the inconvenience.</p>