Xtol failure with no warning, only 2.5 months old in a compression bottle

[stuart_richardson]

<p>

 

<p>Does anyone have any advice on this? Is this Xtol's fault? I just processed a roll in Xtol 1:1 for 12 minutes (was pushing), and it came out completely clear...no numbers or anything. When I poured out the developer, I noticed that it was a strong electric blue color, not one I have seen before...usually acros is purplish, but not that strong. I mixed this batch of Xtol on November 9th, 2008. It was stored in three compression bottles, and I only opened this second compression 4 days ago. I last processed a roll then, using chemicals from the same bottle -- it came out perfectly. Now, I have taken straight chemical from the bottle and it will not even develop a sheet of paper -- it just sits there, staying white. I have not opened it since then, and it has just been sitting under my sink, minding its own business. Is Xtol failure really that dramatic and sudden? I have not had it occur before...<br>

I mixed it with tap water, but I am in Iceland and the water (I only use the cold water...the hot water is sulfurous) is about as pure as you can possibly get. So what gives? Is there any explanation for this, or do I just have to give up on Xtol? The developer was mixed from a 5 liter pack that should not have been that old, so the official Kodak explanation does not look like it applies here...<br>

There are not that many other good options here in Iceland...I may have to go to DDX. </p>

 

</p>

[ronald_moravec1]

<p>The developer was mixed from a 5 liter pack that should not have been that old. </p>

<p>Packs have been dated for 3 or 4 years now and they have a two year shelf life.</p>

<p>Unless you can poduce the pack with a date, my opinion is you got an old package.</p>

<p>Can you not heat cold water to 80 on the stove?</p>

<p>No options? Order some Metol and Sodium sulphite and a scale and make D23. Wait, you are using Delta 400 which only likes Xtol or DDx,at least in my darkroom. Other than that , why are there but two options? DDX is even a worse problem.<br>

The date is coded in and you can`t read it. It will suffer the very same fate as Xtol as it goes off without a color change. These days of low volumn put you in a real bind. At least Kodak prints a date you can read. <br>

Ilford`s date is the first two numbers of the lot # and it represents months 1 to 99. I have totally lost track of what any single month/year is so I can`t date anything anymore. Look at some fresh Ilford stock to get an approximate basis to start. That or e-mail Ilford and ask how long a pack of DXX is good. Then work backwards two years and you get the month year of manufacture.</p>

<p>Make D23 or D76 from scratch one liter at a time. Been doing it for decades.</p>

<p>When I fooled with Xtol, I was on a first name basis with the Kodak reps, 1-800-242-2424. I will never forget that number. They are really nice and will send you a nice new pack or two that will do the same thing. I eventually stopped calling to complain. During conversations they told me there is no home test to assure the proper activity, not a clip test, not drops on paper, nothing. I had one pack that that worked the day after mixing in 80 deg distilled water, storred in glass, and did not work the next week. Wouldn`t you know they were some of the best landscapes I ever did in my life.</p>

<p>My solution was to drag the scale out of retirement, buy some chems, and do it the old fashioned way. Have not had anything go wrong since. Shame too, when it works it works well. When it doesn`t, cry.</p>

<p>Glass is better than plastic. Color does not matter if you keep it in a box. </p>

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

<p>I mix my XTOL using distilled water and I store it in full glass bottles. Never had a failure.</p>

[stuart_richardson]

<p>Thanks for the detailed answer Ronald. I only mentioned DDX because I saw it at my photo store here, though it has probably been on the shelf there for several years. The Xtol pack I actually bought at Calumet NYC and brought it with me on the plane. I no longer have the package, but I doubt it was that old. What I would really like is to get my hands on some Rodinal, which I love and which never dies (even Agfa died, but Rodinal keeps going!). No one in the US will ship it to Iceland though. I have looked at SilverPrint.co.uk, but their minimum international order is 100 quid and a bottle of rodinal is 4 quid. Whoops.</p>

<p>Yeah, it is frustrating. Thankfully this was not an amazing roll (and it was only one roll), but they were photos from the recent protests here -- mostly of the riot police and the protestors. It was not for a job or anything, thank god. I am disappointed though, as Xtol is the only thing that looks as good as Rodinal 1:100 (semi stand) did, but it is a lot easier to use. Half the developing time and no need to make sure there is 7ml of Rodinal per roll (requires one roll per liter, basically).</p>

<p>Robert -- I have used Xtol for hundreds of rolls. This is my first failure. The icelandic cold water is from deep, deep aquifers and is basically 10,000 year old glacially filtered melt water. It is very pure and very low in mineral content. The hot water, on the other hand, is volcanically heated, and as such very mineral rich. I mix chemicals using only the cold water, which I bring to temperature by boiling some of the pure, cold water and adding it to the cold, cold water. I hope that makes sense. I am sure distilled would remove the last of the impurities, but I really don't think it was the water that caused this failure. </p>

[ronald_moravec1]

<p>Photographers Formulary has raw chems to make a Rodinal clone. They are powder, thus shipable.</p>

[chuck_pere]

<p>If you are looking for film speed you might try Ilford Microphen. A powder so should be easier to ship.</p>

[frank.schifano]

<p>It's those damned accordion bottles. The makers want you to think they are good at keeping air out. They're not. These are among the biggest pieces of junk in the business. Soda pop bottles work much better.</p>

[frank.schifano]

<p>It's those damned accordion bottles. The makers want you to think they are good at keeping air out. They're not. These are among the biggest pieces of junk in the business. Soda pop bottles work much better.</p>

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

<p>Ronald has a good solution - heat the cold water on a stove. And I agree with Frank - get rid of the accordian bottles. I use browm reagent bottles myself.</p>

<p>XTOL really is my favorite developer. I hope that I never experience a failure . . .</p>

[bruce_watson1]

<p>Mix XTOL with steam distilled water only. What does XTOL in is disolved minerals in the water. Nearly all tap water anywhere on the planet contains some disolved iron. And XTOL doesn't like this. At all.</p>

<p>Store XTOL in glass bottles. My favorites are old wine bottles. Nice and thick and designed to keep oxygen at bay. I stopper them with VacuVin stoppers so I can pull a vacuum over the XTOL.</p>

<p>Never had a failure. Used XTOL that was eight months old. I keep running out before I make it any farther than that however. But I've heard of people using even old XTOL without problems.</p>

[jim_norman2]

<p>XTOL failure is most often the result of minerals in the water. In your case, I would have expected the problem to happen immediately. I agree with the others that your container is at least partially the culprit here. I always mix XTOL with distilled water and have never had a problem since. I store mine in the Jobo 5 liter jug. Make sure you're mixing at a high enough temperature. I'd also be concerned about storing it in freezing temperatures after mixing. I think it's a great developer, so it's worth the extra care.</p>

[patrick_gainer]

<p>Simplifying Rodinal Preparation<br />I have found that the results of using p-aminophenol base instead of the<br>

hydrochloride and sodium sulfite instead of the metabisulfite or bisulfite are the<br>

same for all practical purposes.<br />The amount of hydroxide required is very much reduced. The formula then becomes:<br />Water...................................400 ml<br />sodium sulfite, anh..............85 grams<br />sodium hydroxide................13.8 grams or 19.3 grams of potassium hydroxide.<br />p-aminophenol.....................40 grams<br />Dissolve the sulfite and the hydroxide, then add the p-aminophenol.<br />Water to make 500 ml.<br>

With these proportions, about 2.5 grams of p-aminophenol should be precipitated The idea is this: aerial oxidation of aminophenol in the presence of sulfite produces the monosulfonate and sodium hydroxide. The sodium hydroxide acts on precipitated p-aminophenol to form sodium aminophenolate, which is soluble. Thus a new molecule of sodium aminophenolate is formed for every molecule that is oxidized by air. I think this reaction keeps the stock solution activity nearly constant until all the precipitated crystals have been dissolved. The color of the stock solution changes over time due to oxidation, but the activity does not. At the least, the oxygen dissolved in the water that was used to make the solution should be scavenged without loss of soluble developing agent.<br /> <br />It seems to work. Whether or not my reasoning is correct, the instructions on the side of my old Rodinal bottle work as well with this homemade version as with the original contents. If you are worried about the difference between sodium and potassium salts, you can substitute 1.25 times the weight of potassium sulfite and 1.4 times the weight of potassium hydroxide for the sodium salts. If you are concerned about having enough p-aminophenol precipitate, add more. The formula usually used produces some sodium or potassium chloride, which this formula does not. The chloride is a very weak restrainer, but if it concerns you, add a bit of non-iodized table salt. You can usually get potassium chloride at a pharmacy if you want to try that.</p>

 

[conrad_hoffman]

<p>I too only mix from raw chemicals now. Everybody should have a copy of Anchell's Film Development Cookbook. You can mix Mytol, the Rodinal recipe above, the various Crawley developers (I like FX2 and FX37) or a host of other things. IMO, unknown and potentially unreliable commercial preparations offer no otherwise unobtainable benefits over what you can mix from scratch. My favorite bottle is a glass Southern Comfort bottle- it has nice indented sides to grab on to.</p>

[andrew_kleinfeld]

<p>I'm betting on the accordian bottles. I've had bad luck with those.</p>

<p>Xtol has always worked great for me, way beyond its supposed date to discard. I store it in one pint Grolsch beer bottles - glass, excellent stopper, filled to allow no air.</p>

[andrew_kleinfeld]

<p>I'm betting on the accordian bottles. I've had bad luck with those.</p>

<p>Xtol has always worked great for me, way beyond its supposed date to discard. I store it in one pint Grolsch beer bottles - glass, excellent stopper, filled to allow no air.</p>

[paulh]

<p>You're the second person I've read who has had Xtol die on them this week. Maybe it's the moon phase.... ;-)</p>

<p>As others have said, there may be some mineral in the cold water that Xtol doesn't like.</p>

<p>If you don't have that many options up in Iceland - we don't have that many down here in New Zealand - maybe you should look at making your own. A Rodinal clone can be made from easily obtainable chemicals, such as paracetamol tablets, drain cleaner and sodium sulphite. <a href="http://silent1.home.netcom.com/Photography/Dilutions%20and%20Times.html#Parodinal">Here</a> is but one recipe. I have enough Rodinal to last me several years, so don't need this one just yet.</p>

<p>My standard developer these days is another mix-your-own, called <a href="http://www.photosensitive.ca/wp/index.php?s=gainer">PC-TEA</a>. This too is made from easy to obtain chemicals. There are just three ingredients: Vitamin C powder, TEA (Triethanolamine) and Phenidone. I had the Phenidone shipped from Artcraft in the US to me in New Zealand - you don't need much at all. The Vitamin C powder came from the health food shop, and the TEA from a chemical supplier (it is used in many common items, such as cosmetics, etc.). This developer lasts a long time in concentrate form (over two years at least), and is very economical. Best of all for you, it has many of the positive characteristics of Xtol. I use it for normal inversion processing for 35mm and 120, and continuous agitation for sheet film. A friend of mine uses it in his Jobo processor (rotary). A good starting point for many films is 1+50 for 9-10 minutes at 20C.</p>

<p>Thanks should go to Patrick Gainer for PC-TEA.</p>

[henry_a]

<p>Hi Stuart,</p>

<p>I'm with the camp that says "use distilled water and glass bottles". These two issues have been brought to light time and time again when we've read of Xtol failures. They are, or should be, now classified as "known issues".</p>

<p>The plastic accordion bottles definitely are permeable to oxygen and are not suitable for developer storage no matter what the manufacturer says. Use glass bottles filled nearly to the top to keep air away from your Xtol.</p>

<p>You don't know what is in your water supply unless you have it tested. Even then, what was in the water last week may be different from next week. Distilled or reverse osmosis filtered water from a reliable source is something you can depend on for mixing photo chemicals.</p>

[fred_obturateur]

<p>I'm terribly sorry to read what happened to you...<br>

personnally this is the last nail in the "hey I should really move from D-76 to X-tol" coffin. <br>

About buying some Rodinal : you're in Iceland, they're in Germany :<br>

http://macodirect.de/index.php?language=en&osCsid=f51185c198607797afde0dbef882cd90<br>

Rodinal page : http://macodirect.de/agfa-filmentwickler-c-1_5_69_71.html</p>

<p>These ones are in France : http://www.photostock.fr/boutique/liste_produits.cfm?code_lg=lg_fr&type=170</p>

<p>I suggest you send both an email and buy from the chepeast seller. I don't know about Maco but Photostock are 100% reliable. Good luck!</p>

[kelly_flanigan1]

<p>Plastic breathes; glass does not.</p>

[stuart_richardson]

<p>Thank you all for the excellent information. I was under the impression that if the compression bottles did not expand, they were airtight. I see that this is wrong. I will go find some airtight glass bottles. The wine and beer ideas sound like the most enjoyable way, though I will see if I can find a bottle supply place. I did write to Maco and they will ship here, so I think I may use them. I will also look up the word for "distilled water" in Icelandic. As for mixing my own, it is a good idea, but since I would need to have that stuff shipped anyway, I might as well just buy ready made powders or solutions from somewhere abroad that has a higher turnover than the photo stores here. I have mixed my own Photographer's Formulary rodinal before, but I am more confident in the manufacturers skills than my own, in terms of getting a precise mix. I do not have scales or particularly accurate measuring devices. </p>

[Fotohuis RoVo]

<p>Xtol active developer compound is Ascorbic Acid and is very sensitive for metal ions. That's why it's important to use demi- or R.O. (Reverse Osmose) water for this developer.<br>

The problem is known as: "sudden death syndrome" of Xtol.<br>

Glass bottles are always gas tight which is not the case with a plastic bottle. The type of bottles you have used are the worst due to the fact a lot of airbubbles are formed and therefore a source for a quick oxidation of the developer.</p>

<p> </p>

[frank.schifano]

<p>Yes, any metal in the water is a bad thing regarding the keeping qualities of XTOL or any other developer for that matter. After all, when we develop a roll of film we are reducing metal salts, the silver halides in film, to metallic silver. In the process, we exhaust the reduction potential of the developer. That is why it is important to use no metal closures for storage bottles. That is why the only metal found in development tanks is high grade stainless steel, which is for the most part, non-reactive.<br>

I use a lot of XTOL, and being the cheapskate that I am, store it in re-used soda pop bottles. In the past, I had been using brown glass Boston Round lab bottles. I don't notice any shortening of the developer's shelf life after having switched over to the plastic bottles. Most of the time, I use about 5L of XTOL every few months. There have been stretches where I've had the developer a little over 6 months and it was still working well after that period of time. The water I use to mix it starts as filtered cold tap water, which I then heat in a glass vessel to the proper temperature using a microwave oven. My water supply has quite a bit of calcium in it, but no iron, and this has not caused a problem. Never use hot tap water. Hot water heaters can introduce quite a bit of iron and other metals into the water and this will cause a problem.</p>

[tim gray]

<p>I've had no problems with XTOL for up to around 6 months. I mix with distilled water ($1.50 for enough for a 5L pack) and then store it in .5 L soda bottles. That prevents any one bottle for sitting around too long with a bunch of air in it *and* it makes it easier to handle. </p>

[Alan Johnson]

<p>It's always assumed that the ascorbate part of Xtol is the part that oxidizes first,before the dimezone-s, though I never saw any experimental proof of this.Maybe Xtol can be revived by adding 12g/L sodium ascorbate,must try this sometime.<br>

btw,my last batch of Xtol,5L,deionized water, full sealed glass bottles, was 22 months old when I finished it with no problem.</p>

[henry_a]

<p>"btw,my last batch of Xtol,5L,deionized water, full sealed glass bottles, was 22 months old when I finished it with no problem."</p>

<p>I had a similar experience once when I found a small bottle of Xtol I'd missed using. It was dated almost two years prior. I tried it and it worked fine.</p>

<p>The very best practice I've found is to keep Xtol in "dose" sized containers. What that means is that if you typically use 500ml of working solution at 1:3 that you'd keep your Xtol in 125ml bottles. No measuring when you are ready to develop some film and best of all no part full bottle of Xtol waiting around. Gonna do two rolls? Use two dose size bottles mixed with the appropriate amount of water.Yes, I have a bunch of small bottles and some larger ones that I use to refill the dose size bottles until I use up the batch of developer. Then I start over.</p>

<p>The minimum amount of stock Xtol is 100ml per 80 square inches of film. Using more is a smart idea I think as there is never a question about developer exhaustion and there's plenty of solution to cover the film in the canister.</p>