Requests to shoot for free...Advice needed

[scrivyscriv]

<p>Nadine, you're always contributing very wise information to the community every time I see you post. Very well put!<br>

I agree with Ian, too, that if you end up doing this wedding but feel cheated or bitter about it inside, your images won't be your best at all.<br>

It's not reasonable for an acquaintance to ask you for free services. I don't even ask my family members for free services in their area of expertise. It's just a faux pas, IMO, and shows that your future-possible-client doesn't understand the size of the request she's making of you, or she may just be someone who genuinely don't want to pay a dime for anything and will try to weasel out of everything she can. Of course, there may be other reasons she may have asked for a free shoot, but unless she were a good friend or family member, I would go so far as to say those other reasons are irrelevant, from a business standpoint.</p>

[BratNikotin]

<p>I have a related case .. but with concerts of my friends bands.<br>

They don't make money on the shows, these are just a hobby little stand up shows and the photos they want are only for the website or facebook. I do like to shoot for practice, and consider this as an exercise, so I do bring camera. With time I got recognized as being "the one with big camera" so, now I get a bunch of calls for pretty much "everything" that can go on. "[name], would you please, attend the show and take some pictures" - I can have such calls/messages almost every weekend.<br /> I am starting to think, on how to say that I want to be put on the guest list, (there are huge many people) come on the guest list - so I know it's possible.<br>

Considering, the social aspect of the events, I think, if I stop making photos available, I will become an outcast on these things .. so seems kind of a loose-loose situation</p>

[mike_hitchen]

<p>You say that the lack of a 'thank you' was a big lesson for you - if that is how you look at it then you need to make sure you learn the lesson. If you can't say 'no' when the person is not particularly close then you will find it harder with people closer to you. Console yourself with the fact that it is distasteful of her to use emotional blackmail to get something for free.<br>

I think the key to situations like this is to keep your reply as short and polite as possible - the more you say the more likely they are to find an angle to coerce you (the salesman's trick in reverse).</p>

<p>You could mention that if you go as the photographer then you would charge them as previously discussed and this would include post processing to your professional standards; but if you were to go as a guest with the intention of taking the 'official' wedding photographs then your concerns about getting the best shots would detract from your enjoyment of attending her wedding as an invited guest.<br>

It sound to me like the first wedding was a fortuitous accident (for the B&G) - you took the photos for pleasure and, having seen they had no photgrapher you offered them the fruits of your labour. You could mention this in your reply - when you shot her brother's wedding the pictures were for yourself which you chose to share with him.<br>

If you do go as a guest then I would leave your camera at home - from your description she is 'the sister of a childhood friend' and memories of her wedding are not important to you so I would be tempted to leave your camera at home and take a P&S if you use one. If the temptation gets too much then take your camera and leave it in the car - and take it out only if you see they have a professional there. Small minded, maybe but it will get you out of a hole.<br>

If they 'disinvite' you because of this then sticking to your guns will be vindicated.</p>

[sherijohnson]

<p>I think I would tell her that you just got booked for another wedding and you will not be able to attend.</p>

[sven_felsby]

<p>This is very interesting, not least because it is essentially a psychological issue. It has nothing to do with photography.<br>

William W and Mike Hitchen has stated all relevant facts for you to consider. As I see it, you need to work with your ability to say "no" politely to obviously outrageous claims. Ask yourself how you deal with attempts of abuse in other aspects of your life. Sorry if I sound harsh, this is written with the best intention. In my professional career, I am respected for being flexible, but with a very clearly defined threshold for saying no. It is a skill I only developed since I rounded 45 years or so.</p>

[pclancy]

<p><em>"Any tips on how I can very politely let her know that I'm not going to work for free"</em></p>

<p>You've already done that. I can't believe that you'd consider extending any more courtesy to someone like this. It's one thing for her to make the initial request but to reply to your generous offer with expecting you to do it? You waste anymore time with this person and you'll be getting what you deserve. Best you don't even respond. Your parent's can explain to the neighbors when it comes up that you made a very generous offer that was rudely dismissed and they might remind them that no thanks were ever given by the son three years ago.<br>

You'd be smart not to shoot this wedding at any price (because you'll likely never see the money) although you might suggest that her brother foot the bill and you'll accept that as the long over due thanks for shooting his wedding for free. Time to find some spine Mary Ann.</p>

[charles_wood]

<p>Explain to the bride to be exactly what happened at her brother's wedding. Also firmly but politely let her know that your livelihood is your wedding photography and you're simply unable to photograph for free. You could also suggest she purchase a couple of dozen disposable cameras and hand them out to the guests with instructions to shoot freely, and then collect them when the wedding is over. If she is so cheap that she won't offer you any compensation, the disposable idea may ring her wedding bell!</p>

[charleseagan]

<p>I might suggest to let her know that July can be a busy month for weddings and that it may cost you if you don't leave that date open. That way maybe she'll realize that this is your livelyhood and your not just a friend with a camera.</p>

[williams_gallery]

<p>A client is hiring not only your camera, but your eye and your years of experience - all that is worth something, to say nothing of your time. I am not saying anything that hasn't been said already, but I just had to cast a vote for integrity and encourage you to nicely refuse to work for free. To do so devalues your worth and shows a lack of understanding on the part of the "client" as to how the amount of work involved in professionally covering a wedding. </p>

[bms]

<p>Oh, it's always so interesting to read the threads here! All kinds of characters, social drama :)</p>

<p>All jokes aside, as someone who does not do this professionally, it seems to me she is quite unreasonable. Although her borther seemed not to care about a photographer for his wedding, she clearly does. She MUST have at least looked at some prices and so she knows what a great deal she is getting. $250? C'mon - that is a great deal. Unless this a super low budget wedding, this is small fish.</p>

<p>Ask her what her job is - then ask her if she would provide her services for free for you...... and take her up on the offer. Quid pro quo.</p>

<p> </p>

[bms]

<p>sorry double post...</p>

[William Michael]

<p><em><strong>"I wouldn't even have offered as much as the 80 percent discount you did, but now that it's out there, you can't rescind.</strong></em><br>

<em><strong>Not true." (JH)</strong></em><br>

<br>

A side comment: I have often found in a sales meeting, as part of a protracted sales negotiation - which this is, whilst any conversation continues and until the Wedding day passes - that the Prospect is often awakened to the immediacy of the situation and the importance of them making a decision, soon, if this fact is politely pointed out.<br>

<br>

A brash method is "this is a once only offer" - but more polite techniques can easily be found.<br>

<br>

Obviously, using those techniques requires the seller to WANT the job . . . in this regard my gut feelings, based upon what has been presented, are similar to Patrick Clancy's: "You'd be smart not to shoot this wedding at any price".<br>

<br>

On another note - I have found battering to a quid pro quo solution is messy and usually does not resolve the situation but makes it more problematic.<br>

<br>

Currency is designed to be a yardstick to measure the worth of each individual transaction of goods or services - OK, we each will have an opinion on the whether we get value, or not - but the PRICE at least we know, it is a number, and we can use that number as a comparison.<br>

<br>

WW<br>

<br>

</p>

<p > </p>

 

[William Michael]

<p>Opps, I forgot to add - <br>

<br>

Al , That was a very kind comment, though I think “Brilliant” might be a bit over the top. And I am not just sucking up because I like Triumphs and I know where Phillip Island is :) – but IMO, Ducati s are nice, too. <br>

<br>

Seriously . . . I learnt not to discount (money) from the school of hard knocks and that is not to dismiss going to school - I did that too – I still am.<br>

<br>

I tried discounting for about three years. . . and I believe I marketed the business appropriately . . . the end result: slightly more turnover, less gross profit and way less net profit. Very early on I found I had better return custom, more referrals and (anecdotally) higher customer satisfaction by giving gifts, rather than discounting the bottom line.<br>

<br>

Discounting is a specialist tool IMO, best left to the discount kings with huge draw, the ability to drag debts to 180 days and the capacity to determine their own buying price - and even these business can fold, and quickly, whilst they teeter on slim margins and are dependent upon volume turnover. The other group of businesses who can discount well are those who have a niche where the cost price is almost zero, overheads small and their personal life costs, are meager. <br>

<br>

I am sometimes against the general flow of thought in this forum . . . times are tough (economically) it is time to raise the prices to accommodate the costs of business and maintain growth or at least stability for the next 18 months – discounting $ from an acceptable selling price, is the worst marketing option available – perhaps suicidal in many instances, IMO. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >WW</p>

[bms]

<p>WW, probably should have put a smiley next to the quid pro quo :) Not entirely serious, although people who think that shooting the wedding is just fun for Mary etc, maybe brought to their senses when asked to provide, say, a a few hours of legal consultation for free.....</p>

[steve_bellayr]

<p>a. Send a gift & not attend or b. if it is a small wedding take the equivalent of 2 rolls of film of just the main participants & that is your gift.</p>

[William Michael]

<p><em><strong>"probably should have put a smiley next to the quid pro quo :) Not entirely serious,"</strong></em><br>

<br>

Ah, I am glad you were online for a quick response: nice to meet you.<br>

<br>

Yes, I pondered a while before making that comment on your "quid pro quo". <br>

<br>

I initially thought it was a “suggestion” to quickly whip some sense into the matter – albeit a more subtle suggestion than Art's (at which I chuckled).<br>

<br>

But, there was room for a little confusion as to your exact meaning when you used the phrase "all jokes aside" previous - so I just played a straight bat – and only in the interest of the Original Post and clarification – it was not a slight at you.<br>

<br>

I like your style.<br>

<br>

Cheers<br>

<br>

WW</p>

<p > </p>

 

[w_t1]

<p>Lots of good responses here. I think Sven sums it up nicely, more of a psychological issue rather than business. I often wonder if doctors, dentists, lawyers, automechanics, plumbers etc. get the same response from their neighbors as this situation. There seems to be an air of entitlement from the bride. I did a bunch of weddings in the 80's and 90's, and I don't miss the relative and friend issues. I have learned to not expect a thank you from anyone, in my business or photography. If I get a "thank you", that's an added bonus.</p>

<p>When you said "childhood neighbor havent seen in many years" to me that implies you weren't close, you both grew up and drifted apart. It seems like the sister is trying to take advantage of you, there is plenty of good advice here and online and Dr PHil etc. about how to respond to people. I bet this bride and groom, and her parents could afford a pro photo job. good luck. Tom</p>

[bianchi photographs]

<p>Well...everyone wants something for nothing, specially when it comes to taking photos for friends, relatives, and specially co-workers. I was in a similar situation; however, it was a church member that had ask me to help her with a video project to honor the pastor of my church for the many years of service to the community. I do freelance photography and shoot video for events, and I have an add in their Sunday publication. At first, she was under the impression that all this work was to commended pro-bono, and when I presented her a proposal with a discounted rate and waiving a 35% over my normal fees, she was is shock. I supposed she thought since I am member of the parrish, I would do it for free. In any event, we came to a sort of compromise and did help her, but she did all the raw video shooting. I just help her with the editing and put my name to the production as one of my products and events' productions. I dont regret it, it helped a good cause. It would be up to you to decide what is best, whether as a favor to your friend and have them sign a release for the photos, so there will be no misunderstanding if they are shown to increase your portfolio.</p>

 

[rich_evans]

<p>Its always a tough decision when friends - or tougher yet family - are the parties involved. I've given unsolicited 'for cost' quotes to close friends, only because firstly, I love doing weddings, secondly I knew them very well and knew that I could get more personal and candid 'true-to-life' expressions than a stranger might. And as was previously suggested, the bill was clearly marked as 'pro bono - congratulations' - can you say "tax write-off?".</p>

<p>I found that family on the other hand was a tougher call. My wife's nephew got married this past year, and not only were we 'hired' to photograph the wedding, but were also invited guests. This was not comfortable. One cannot take part in the event and also accurately record the event. We simply did our job, and had a nice meal. Afterwards the family was grateful for our 'gift' (I only charged for extra prints) and we decided to never again agree to photograph family events.</p>

<p>Rich</p>

[josephbraun]

<p>expectations = premeditated resentments.</p>

[ross_warner2]

<p>Remember, No good deed goes unpunished!</p>

[dreamweefer]

<p>I feel for you. But I would decline. Tell her your flattered that you were considered for the special occasion, but you are not able to handle the extra costs involved, unforseen in this volatile economy.<br>

Good luck</p>

[Mark Keefer]

<p>You could do it as a wedding gift if you want to keep good relations between the families or say you can not make the wedding because you are booked to do a paying gig for a big client and you need the gig to pay the rent. At least you would have a good excuse. Best of luck.</p>

[animalexplorer]

<p>Ask her to mow your lawn for the next two years for free, of course if she isn't booked.<br>

Paul :)</p>

[matthew_banks1]

<p>Mary Ann, I think you have your work cut out for you.<br>

Simply send her an email with a link to this thread. She will very soon learn the value of your offer, your genuine concern for your parents' relationship, and how involved wedding photography is.<br>

I have a high respect for wedding photographers - you have one of the most difficult and touchy jobs available!</p>