13x19 - why no frames?

[Jeff Lear]

<p>"I can't imagine limiting my prints to fixed aspect ratios - it's an absurd and artificial limitation. I crop my images so that the composition is optimal, and the aspect ratio is what it is."</p>

<p>I don't think that anyone is limiting themselves to a fixed ratio, the question at hand is how to frame <em>this</em> specific size image. As far as cropping, I expose my images so that the composition is optimal in an effort to limit cropping in post. Some subjects don't lend themselves to the aspect ratio of my camera sensor or my paper and for those I must either compromise or customize, usually the latter. Much of this comes down to style, taste, or economics. Some people prefer the symmetry of identically sized frames/mats/prints hanging on their wall while others prefer the randomness of various sizes and aspect ratios. Still others question the point of buying a 13 x 19 format printer if you're not going to create 13 x 19 prints.</p>

[kelly_flanigan1]

<p>RE: Why printer manufacturers chose to go larger than a "standard" sized 11x14 without going to the next "standard" size of 16x20 I don't know.<br /> <br /> There are many hundreds of paper standards.<br /> One could just move up/down from Super-B 13x19 to:) :)<br /> <br /> Pinched Post 14.75 x 18.5<br /> Post 15.5 ×19.5<br /> Crown 15x20"<br /> Arch B 12x18" <br /> Tabloid 11x17"<br /> Larger Post 16.5 x21"<br /> JIS 3 14.3 × 20.3"<br /> ISO A3 11.7 × 16.5<br /> ISO B3 13.9 × 19.7<br /> ISO C3 12.8 × 18.0<br /> Demy 17.5 × 22.5"<br /> Brief 13.5 × 16<br /> Many of the 13x19 printers were designed for a standard :) 13" roll; for roll feed<br>

<br /> In practice saying there are standards for paper sizes is like saying there is a standard MP3 for teenagers; ie a small set of songs say a dozen ones they use.<br>

<br /> In printing; since today all customers are experts; and one cannot stock an infinite number of sheet sizes and rolls; one cuts off the waste.<br>

<br /> Thus if an artists wants a 13x21 print; you print it on the next largest size and trim it; the excess goes to the dump.<br>

<br /> 13x19 frames have been around for at least 10 years; use Google; not your local store who is caught in a time warp</p>

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<td>14.75 × 18.5</td>

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[craig_shearman1]

<p>To clarify, my reference to "standard" sizes was to "standard" sizes for traditional wet darkroom photographic prints in the U.S., not paper sizes in general or those used in printing presses, computer printers, typewriters, etc. It is absolutely correct that there are many, many "standard" sizes especially once you go beyond photographic paper sizes or those used in any particular country.</p>

[a._t._burke]

<p>Michael Willems , Jan 04, 2009; 06:57 p.m. </p>

<p>You said..."You see, I am ignorant. All I know is, I walk into all these places with my 13x19 prints and ask "do you have anything I can mount this in", and they keep saying "no, that is an odd size"." </p>

<p>NO! You are not ignorant. The frame manufacturers are ignorant. The photo industry wholesalers are ignorant. The photo retailers are ignorant. Photo related businesses are shutting down factories, closing their stores and laying off people because they, like the American auto industry, do not make and market want the buyers want to buy. Epson just put their whole line of 13" printers on sale. The 1400 is under $200 in some places and does an excellent job on prints up to 13" x 44". Think of all the new 13" printing photographers out there who would like frames. Good old American business no longer gets it. </p>

<p>I asked my local photo store (the last one in town) about stocking some 13x19 frames after letting them know that the local Staples and Office Max had just done a landslide business on Epson 13" 1400 printers AND I had bought one and wanted to buy some frames from him. He said they were not made. Lo and behold, only a few days later, Photo Net members have come up with several sources in response to your question. I wonder why the local businesses are financially struggling....hmmm?? </p>

<p>You are asking the right question...The business dummies just don't have the proper answer. </p>

[eddes]

<p>Why no frames?</p>

<p>Simply 13x19 is, for photography, an oddball size.</p>

<p>The vast majority of photographs continue to be of traditional sizes (4x6,5x7,8x10,8x12, 11x14 etc.). These are the sizes photo printing services offer their customers and there are for ready made frames for this market. Their machines are from the photo world.</p>

<p>This web site is heavily skewed to a population that prints their own photos and large ones to boot. With inkjet printing, the providers of papers have machines from the paper world, not the photo world. That's why we find paper 8 1/2 x11, 11x17, 13x19, 17x22 etc.</p>

<p>Even at my photo club the majority of members do not print at home they outsource.</p>

<p>Some specialty sources (via the internet or custom frame houses) do offer ready made frames for these sizes and many offer custom frames to any size. It's a question of how many people want it. This is great. Just like wanting archival cardboard, it's not that big a market. If it does become big. People will step in to fill the need.</p>

<p>You will also notice that the paper sizes don't match camera frame proportions either. Their isn't even a frame proportion standard (3:2, 4:3, 1:1, 6:7, 4x5 etc.) I don't see this as a problem. Personally, I custom crop each image and make my own custom mats in standard frames (16x20).</p>

<p>Edmond</p>

 

[Brad_]

<p>Wow, you'd think this is rocket science with all the replies...</p>

<p>Still don't know why people want to put a 13x19 print in a 13x19 frame. Pretty sucky without the print being matted...</p>

[ilkka_nissila]

<p><i> the question at hand is how to frame </i><em >this</em><i> specific size image</i><br>

That question has been answered. You need some paper around the image for the mounting to be practical. </p>

[mvw photo]

<p>Yes, and I (op) do not necessarily want a 13x19 frame. I just want to be able to walk into one of these places that sell thousands of frames/mats with a handful of my 13x19 prints, with and without margin, and buy a frame that will contain them, rather than to have them say "that is a non existent size". I agree with A. Thomas: this business doesn't seem to get it. I can buy a printer and 13x19 paper in any photo store. But when I then turn and ook at their frames and ask "now can I frame these prints someohow" they send me to $800-a-frame custom framers (no kidding, that is what I was told to do in the store where I bought my printer, when it turned out none of their frames woudl contain this size).</p>

<p>Also. 13x19 is almost the same aspect ratio as my camera's sensor. THAT is one major reason I like it.</p>

<p> </p>

[manuel barrera houston,]

<p>One more answer from me, what I do when I am printing for myself. I go to the Salvation Army, I go to the bargain resale shop, etc. I look for a beautiful frame with mat, which I can normally buy for under $20 take it home and print to the mat size. They have have all sizes of frames and mats that need loving again. I created a photo of myself and my seven siblings with caps and gowns, and a photo our parents on top. I found a frame that is matted 6 x 18 printed to that size, looks great, my most commented photo that is hung.</p>

[garrison_k.]

<blockquote>

<p>agree with A. Thomas: this business doesn't seem to get it.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Has it perhaps occured to you, that you don't get it? There is no market for people wandering around with a 13x19 print looking to frame it without a mat. You wont find mat openings for 13x19 because it is not an established aspect ratio. The manufactures have given us 13x19 printers and paper so we can print at our 2:3 ratio up to 12x18.</p>

 

[rongarofalo]

<p>I just had a show with 13 x 19 using matts (1/8" bevel) and frames 22 x 28 that I got through Light Impressions. Get their catalog which has a better selection than what they show on the internet (go figure).</p>

[rickeselgroth]

<p>Kohl's use to have them about a year ago but they discontinued them. They were the made by North American Enclosures Inc. frame size was 18x24 and came with a 2 1/2" matt. I called all the stores in my area and bought as many as I could get my hands on (only about 10 in the Phx area).<br>

I haven't looked since. They make them somewhere you just have to hunt for them, I think I saw some at another atrs and craft store, but I can't remember which one.</p><div></div>

[ilkka_nissila]

<p> $800-a-frame <br>

<i><br /></i><br>

That's not a realistic price. I can get a print of that size class matted and framed with glass for about $100, at a number of places, irrespective of the precise dimensions of the picture.</p>

[Brad_]

<p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>Has it perhaps occured to you, that you don't get it? There is no market for people wandering around with a 13x19 print looking to frame it without a mat.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Ding ding ding ding.... Garrison is one of the few who gets it! Printer papers are not made to a standard image size. 8 1/2 x 11 is a great example. You buy paper that has dimensions that will accommodate the size of your image and trim. For example, I print a lot at 11x14. And for mounting considerations (I use Lineco archival mylar mounts) print on 13x19 paper - giving a minimum 1" border for the mounts.</p>

<p>If you really want to print at 13x19 (and your printer can really do full-bleed), and frame without a mat (odd in my view), just get a frame made. Or, if you want to save money, buy a kit of the four frame sides, cut and mitred to the proper length. They're cheap and easy to put together! Framefit.com is an inexpensive place to get quality moulding cut and mitred to your size.<br>

<br>

Sometimes for something special, I make my own frames in my shop starting with rough hardwood lumber. Or buy inexpensive black paint frame moulding and make whatever size I want. The point is, there are *many* ways to make frames - from the very simple to the labor-intensive...<br>

<img src="http://pages.sbcglobal.net/b-evans/Images16/Frames.jpg" alt="" /></p>

<p><img src="http://pages.sbcglobal.net/b-evans/Images16/MiterJigDuo.jpg" alt="" /></p>

<p><img src="http://pages.sbcglobal.net/b-evans/Images16/MiterClamps.jpg" alt="" /></p>

 

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[rickeselgroth]

<p>Where did you see that price ($800) ? I got my frames for $29.99 then got it for 1/2 off blow out at Kohl's</p>

[mark_rogers]

<p>>Has it perhaps occured to you, that you don't get it? There is no market for people<br />>wandering around with a 13x19 print looking to frame it without a mat.</p>

<p>Yes there is and I founded Frame Destination on that size. My company sells metal and wood frames in 13x19 and we have mats that take 13x19 up to frame sizes of 17x23, 18x24, and 20x26. It is just not a big market and offering lots of different sizes causes inventory problems for the retail stores so you will never see many other size options on the store shelves.<br>

<a href="http://www.framedestination.com">Mark</a></p>

[a._t._burke]

<p>Mark Rogers...</p>

<p>Good for you. "Find a need and fill it." That used to be the American way. That was before marketing turned to "I'll make what I want, control the market and they have to buy my stuff." The sad thing is that today's American falls for that stuff and feels that the customer is there to make business feel good about themselves. Don't believe me? Watch the re-runs of the first Washington meeting with the auto execs. </p>

<p>Brad... </p>

<p>Says: "and frame without a mat (odd in my view)" </p>

<p>You are interested in frames as shown by your pictures of your shop. So are the customers of many pros. They will usually want to go through the framing process, matting and all. They buyers of the 13"x19" lower priced printers might just want a simple frame. For some folks, maybe including you, cutting the mat and making or choosing just the right frame adds to their enjoyment of the photo process. Even some may take photos for the enjoyment of framing. BUT... There is still a new market out there just enhanced by newly affordable 13" printers (and just in time for Christmas sales which quickly increased the number in service) who just want to get something they printed up on the wall in a reasonable way. Enter new entrepreneur Mark Rogers! </p>

<p>Garrison K.....</p>

<p>There are a LOT of top business executives that would agree with you completely. They work for Ford, Chrysler, GM, AIG, Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Capital One Financial Corp., Merrill Lynch & Co., JPMorgan Chase & Co., Bank of New York Mellon Corp., Wells Fargo & Co., Fannie Mae, Wachovia, Washington Mutual, Lehman Brothers, etc., etc., etc. You are in good company!</p>

[kbreak]

<p>I have been seriously pestered by the lack of 13x19 frames!<br /> However I was very happy to find Frame Destinations... I have been rather pleased with their metal frames.<br /> I wonder, just how many of these 13x19s do they sell??I think mats are tedious, so I print my 13x19s with a "mat" or border built in, like this one.</p>

<p> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/kbreak/print_0527.jpg</p>

<p>No mat here.. heheh.</p>

[a._t._burke]

<p>Mark Rogers...</p>

<p>Just so you know. I called your shop (Tuesday about 3:20 Montana time) to order a four pack of frames, 13x19 of course. I could hardly hear the person (female) speaking. I started the conversation with "I'd like to order some frames." and gave her the product number. She said something in a low fast voice that sounded like she was asking if I knew of your web site. I said that I'd seen it and wanted to order. She said that she preferred that I order on the web. I asked her if she would take my order over the phone. She repeated that she would prefer that I order on the web. I tried once more to order and was again refused. OK, I get it, no means no. </p>

<p>Why do you put your toll free number on your web site? </p>

<p>Tom Burke</p>

[a._t._burke]

 

<p>Mark...<br>

P.S. Also, why would you place the following words at the bottom of your web site?<br>

"If you have questions or need assistance placing your order with us, please contact us toll-free at 1-877-5FRAMES. Our knowledgeable team will be happy to help recommend the best products and picture frames for your needs. "<br>

It occurred to me that perhaps an employee was letting you down?</p>

 

 

[hal_edmonds]

<p>Kevin, that is exactly what I was referring to.</p>

[mark_rogers]

<p>Thomas Burke wrote >...She said that she preferred that I order on the web.<br>

Thomas, I greatly appreciate you letting me know about this. That is not our policy. We are training a new person and this will be easy for us to correct. We are happy to take phone orders especially from new customers that are not use to our website or new to the framing process so that we can catch errors before the order is placed.<br />Cheers,<br /><a href="http://www.framedestination.com/">Mark</a></p>

[a._t._burke]

<p>Mark...</p>

<p>Great. We at Photonet should in fact assume the best and help each other and let each other know what's going on. As you now know, I have called back, talked to a knowledgeable person, and got my orders properly taken care of. The person who answered the phone did such a good job that I thought you might make a good supplier to our local photo store and asked that your company send me some of your company material so our local photo store could consider you as a source for their frames. </p>

<p>I've met some of the nicest people on and through photonet. Your business certainly carries on that tradition. </p>

<p>Tom Burke</p>

[Brad_]

<p>Still don't understand the notion of putting a 13x19 print into a 13x19 frame. Without a mat your print is not protected as it's pressed against the glass.</p>

<p>Because a printer can print 13x19 (and most won't print full-bleed) doesn't mean you frame at 13x19. For a print of that size, I'd go with a larger frame and with at least 3" mat borders.</p>

<p>*Every* museum and photo gallery I've been to mats photos that are placed under glass. Framing prints directly against glass without a mat is definitely an oddity - and would not be recommended if you care about the print...</p>

[garrison_k.]

<p>

<p><strong>BEDEVERE: </strong>And what do you burn apart from witches?<br>

<strong>VILLAGER #1: </strong>More witches!<br>

<strong>VILLAGER #2: </strong>Wood!<br>

<strong>BEDEVERE: </strong>So, why do witches burn? [pause]<br>

<strong>VILLAGER #3: </strong>B--... 'cause they're made of wood...?<br>

<strong>BEDEVERE: </strong>Good!<br>

<strong>CROWD: </strong>Oh yeah, yeah...<br>

<strong>BEDEVERE: </strong>So, how do we tell whether she is made of wood?<br>

<strong>VILLAGER #1: </strong>Build a bridge out of her.<br>

<strong>BEDEVERE: </strong>Aah, but can you not also build bridges out of stone?<br>

<strong>VILLAGER #2: </strong>Oh, yeah.<br>

<strong>BEDEVERE: </strong>Does wood sink in water?<br>

<strong>VILLAGER #1: </strong>No, no.<br>

<strong>VILLAGER #2: </strong>It floats! It floats!<br>

<strong>VILLAGER #1: </strong>Throw her into the pond!<br>

<strong>CROWD: </strong>The pond!<br>

<strong>BEDEVERE: </strong>What also floats in water?<br>

<strong>VILLAGER #1: </strong>Bread!<br>

<strong>VILLAGER #2: </strong>Apples!<br>

<strong>VILLAGER #3: </strong>Very small rocks!<br>

<strong>VILLAGER #1: </strong>Cider!<br>

<strong>VILLAGER #2: </strong>Great gravy!<br>

<strong>VILLAGER #1: </strong>Cherries!<br>

<strong>VILLAGER #2: </strong>Mud!<br>

<strong>VILLAGER #3: </strong>Churches -- churches!<br>

<strong>VILLAGER #2: </strong>Lead -- lead!<br>

<strong>ARTHUR: </strong>A duck.<br>

<strong>CROWD: </strong>Oooh.<br>

<strong>BEDEVERE: </strong>Exactly! So, logically...,<br>

<strong>VILLAGER #1: </strong>If... she.. weighs the same as a duck, she's made of wood.<br>

<strong>BEDEVERE: </strong>And therefore--?</p>

</p>