printing confusion, could use some help

[15sunrises]

Well, I've been reading and reading for the past few days about color management, printing, profiles, etc. but am still

far too lost in my quest to go from camera -> photoshop -> paper...

 

I have a few concrete questions that maybe somebody could help me answer. The most comprehensive tutorial that

I've found was on http://www.computer-darkroom.com/ but I still can't figure out a few things.

 

1) I have an Epson R290 (R285 in Europe). When I proof in Photoshop using this profile, I don't see any difference in

the image. When I 'convert to profile' I also don't see a difference (the source space is sRGB IEC61966-2.1), is this

normal? I've calibrated my monitor using Adobe Gamma.

 

2) I'm going to be using Fujifilm Premium plus photopaper, my problem is that I don't know how to 'combine' my

printer's profile with the paper profile, is this even necessary? How do I go about doing this?

 

3) I'm extremely confused about creating the image to print ... like, horribly. Here is what I assume the workflow will

be, can anybody maybe have a look and tell me what I'm doing wrong:

 

a) configure monitor with Adobe Gamma

 

b) open photo in Photoshop, then go View -> Proof Setup, select my printer so that I have an idea of what it will look

like when printed (do I select preserve RGB numbers or Black Point Compensation?)

 

c) adjust photo according to how I want it to look

 

d) go to File -> Print with Preview. HERE is where I'm lost. I think I would go to "Let Photoshop Determine Colors",

then under my printer select my profile (again, I only have the printer here and not the paper profiles). And then print?

 

Basically I'm confused about how all of the profiles interact. I use Adobe Gamma to try and get my monitor to

display the colors correctly. Then I open the document in Photoshop with it's embedded profile (sRGB in my case).

Then I 'proof' it in Photoshop and adjust to my liking. Then I print using settings which I'm still confused about, and I

also don't know how to combine my printer and paper ICC profiles since there is no selection available for the Fujifilm

papers.

 

Thanks for the help, even if you just point me to a link that explains everything.

 

Thanks

[steel120]

I think from your question, there are two parts to the answer. First the Proofing you are using in Photoshop with a profile is

a seperate operations from the actual printing process. The Proofing allows you to see aproximately what your end

results may be. The second part, an perhaps the most important is how the printer interacts with photoshop. Here you have

two options. First, let the printer control how the colors look and print. On your epson, in the printer setup, you will see

something that indicates that the printer will control the colors. (I do not have a 285 so I have to be general here), The other

options is to have "No color management by printer", this means your photoshop application controls the printer, i.e. how

the colors will be used and by what profile for paper. So if you want photoshop to be in control (which it should be) make

sure that the application controls printing select the paper you wish to use from a dialogue box. Hopefully, someone with an

Epson 285 could give you the exact boxes to be checked for photoshop to control the print process. Once you have this,

save the settings. Then all you will have to do in the future is select the paper ICC that you wish to use, size, orentations

etc. First time is the most difficult, once you get set up properly, you will be happy with the results. On another note, many

will recommend a monitor calibration device to get the colors as close to perfect as possible, but you can get close with the

Adobe Gamma, I did this for a while before I picked up a Huey Pro calibrator, which works fine for me. Many most likely will

comment about the calibrations. Its important, but getting the printer/photoshop/ICC profiles correct will get you very close

to high quality prints at home.

 

Regards Bob

[michael_darnton1]

The most important thing is the thing you've left out: how do the prints look?

[15sunrises]

It seems like my printer profile is directly linked to the paper profile, is there a way to separate these two? I'm guessing that I either have to find an ICC profile which combines the two, or find the closest match?

[robert_brake1]

Yes Dave, you've reached the conundrum that no single element of a digital workflow, camera maker, computer maker or

printer maker wants to deal with: how to get from camera to print faithfully.

 

You'll need to do some research. A book, like Andrew Rodney's "Color Management for Photographers"is probably the

fastest way to a color managed workflow but if you're on a budget you can find the info you're looking for on your own

albeit with time traded for lower cost.

 

Essentially you have a camera capable of given colors and degrees of luminosity, a computer/monitor with differing

capabilities and a printer/paper combo with a third set of capabilities. Profiles allow a reasonable translation from one

area to the next. Rendering intents provide a means of dealing with information that doesn't translate directly.

 

Starting with the camera, you will generally have a choice of sRGB or Adobe RGB. sRGB has a smaller range of colors

and is used primarily for web applications as it closely mimics web capabilites. Adobe RGB has a greater range of

colors available and will probably give you a more faithful interpretation as you go along. Your camera usually allows

you to choose one or the other.

 

Next comes your computer/monitor. Realistically you need a hardware device to profile your monitor. You mentioned

ICCs so I assume you are using a mac (PCs use ICMs) With the mac color managing is much easier and is sort of built

in. If you profile your monitor mac and programs like Photoshop will pretty much automatically use that profile. You

then have a pretty even match from camera to monitor.

 

Then comes the printer/paper aspect. You are correct in assuming that the printer profile is tied directly to the paper.

Each profile is for a printer/inkset/paper combo. Again a hardware device is handy as it allows you to make a profile for

any inkset/printer/paper combination you want. In lieu of that you can use the manufacturers paper/inkset/printer profiles

or have a custom profile made for any given inkset/printer/paper combo. The manufacturer, except in rare cases, is

going to limit you to his inkset/paper combos. Some independent paper manufacturers will provide profiles for popular printer/paper

combos but rarely for third party inksets.

 

The proofing capabilities of programs like Photoshop give you the ability to do your image processing while looking

through a simulation of what the image should look like on any given profiled paper/inkset/printer combo after it is

printed. There are some limitations though, as a monitor is lighted from behind the image and the image on paper will be

lighted from reflected light. You can work this out through a bit of trial and error later usually having to do with the Contrast/Brightness

settings for your monitor used at the time of building the monitor profile. Things like rendering intents are

part of settings that are used when building the profile and are generally replicated when proofing or printing. BPC is a

method compensating for the difference in how black is perceived on a monitor and on a printed page, more of a finer

point and sort of meaningless without a color managed workflow up to that point.

 

Good luck and you are not alone:)

[ellis_vener_photography]

"1) I have an Epson R290 (R285 in Europe). When I proof in Photoshop using this profile, I don't see any difference in the image."

 

When soft proofing Try using the out of gamut feature in PsCS3 to see if anything pops up as being out ogf gamut. Dependign o nthe aper you are using itis quite likely that nothing i n an sRGB color space image will be out of gamut however.

 

"When I 'convert to profile' I also don't see a difference (the source space is sRGB IEC61966-2.1), is this normal? "

 

If you didn't see any difference in the soft proo yes that would be normal behavior.

 

"2) I'm going to be using Fujifilm Premium plus photopaper, my problem is that I don't know how to 'combine' my printer's profile with the paper profile, is this even necessary? How do I go about doing this? "

 

You have to think of the paper, ink and printer as one thing, one device. A profile is a kind of remapping of color values based on the interaction of those three elements for optimal results. You cannot just profile a printer, or an ink set or a paper separately; they are all working together in the making of the print.

 

"Basically I'm confused about how all of the profiles interact. "

 

You start with an image in a device independent RGB working space like sRGB, Adobe RGB(1998) , Pro Photo , etc. One version of the image is sent to your monitor utilizing its profile. ICC aware applications (like Photoshop) use that profile automatically for rendering the image on the display. As I said before the printing profile is based on the combination of things used to make the print: The printer's mechanical characteristics, the inks and the qualities of the paper with those inks . To go a little further into color management geekdom it also helps to take into consideration the illumination source the print will be viewed or displayed under.

[hjoseph7]

Dave, I had a similar problem a few weeks ago. Maybe by reading this archived post you might pick up some pointers.

 

http://www.photo.net/digital-darkroom-forum/00QL0W

[15sunrises]

Hi Guys, thanks for the help. I've actually found a profile that might be close, I was wondering how close the R300 epson is to the R290/R285. They both use the same inks. Here is what I've found:

 

http://www.fujifilm.eu/support/color_management/graphic/

 

Near the bottom.

[robert_brake1]

Dave, you've got two completely different printers/inksets. The 300 is an older 3.0 picolitre dot size printer using the

original epson dye inks. The other is a newer 1.5 picolitre dot size using the newer Claria inks. You might get a spot on

match much like closing your eyes and shooting a shotgun in the air and then hoping a duck falls down. Most likely all

your colors will be shifting to a point of being nearly unrecognizable.

 

If you don't want to color manage fully you would be better off to forget about third party papers and stick with an Epson

paper/ink combo and let the printer choose the colors (using the default, built in profiles). You'll end up running a lot of

test prints until you understand what you must tweak in your image processing to get the output you want but you'll be

further ahead than trying to match a third party paper to an existing profile.

[15sunrises]

Thanks for the response Robert. I just ran through a print (my first) and definitely wasn't satisfied. I guess that my option will be to go out and get the right epson branded papers.

 

On the other hand, the print was actually fairly close to what was on screen, the problem being that the onscreen image wasn't fantastic either with the soft proof.

 

Ohwell, now the question is what to do with this fuji paper.

 

:)

[robert_brake1]

I know the problem. I inherited a fairly large pack of an unknown glossy paper and tried a few test print with a handful of

different profiles to no avail. I have the means of profiling the paper but even then I don't know if it's worth the time and the

ink.

[brian_ellis19]

I use Hahnemuhle and Moab/Legion papers and have used them with various Epson printers (1160, 1280, 2200, 3800).

Both paper manufacturer's web sites include profiles for various different printers that can be downloaded from

the web site. Have you checked Fuji's web site to see if there's a profile for your paper and printer there? If

Fuji doesn't provide a profile for use with your paper and printer then I'd switch to another paper that does and

if none do then I'd consider getting another printer unless you can find a profile for another paper that works

with your printer.

[15sunrises]

Hi guys,

 

Thanks for all the help. I think I've finally understood how this process is supposed to work. I'm going to move on to Epson papers (I bought the fuji because the Epson papers are harder to come by here and I wanted to try printing right away!) and get the correct profiling workflow.

 

I'm also using a FW900 monitor, which has a lot of advanced color settings, so hopefully I'll eventually get it close enough to use for prints.

 

For an update, I tried printing on the fuji paper using a R285/Epson glossy profile, and while the colors were off (desaturated, overally lighter), the print quality of the R285 is fantastic. I remember my old Stylus Photo from back in the day and needless to say, there's absolutely no comparison.

[jody.coleman]

I too have an R285,

 

And as a beginner will be sticking with Epson papers for the meanwhile. so i can brush up on CS3 and then begin to think about branching out into other papers / techniques.

 

 

PS Brilliant printer. well worth the money these days.

[dan bachmann]

<p>Would any one be interested in sharing generic profiles for the R285/R290 and Epson Claria inks? At least that way we'd have good starting points. Fotospeed and Permajet both offer profiling services, so we could build up a decent list and there's one floating around for Ilford.</p>