M8 Warning, camera shell failure

[ilkka]

"WHY do Leica fit a tripod thread to the M8?"

 

So that you can attach a leather case to it, to prevent scratches to that beauuutiful body?

[james_symington1]

'Whoever would put a Leica on a tripod anyway?'

 

People who want to make their $4000 lenses perform at their best usally.

[dmanthree]

Ray,

 

Nothing warms the cockles of a Leica haters heart more than seeing someone who has spend $5K on a camera that is clearly, and in multiple ways defective and then tries to rationalize it. Sorry it seems that way, but really, can you justify this failure on a camera that was built by a company who made their name building cameras that were bricks? I haven't shot a Leica in quite a while, and never will again, if this is what they build. I was going to buy an M8, but after the IR flap and other reports of physical failures, it became clear that this model is a turkey.

[carbon_dragon]

Come on guys. It's one thing to have a design defect which results in a structural failure. To have it happen to Leica

who has cut it's teeth on reliability is particularly embarrasing. But the important thing is how a company handles

such a problem when it arises. If they really accused the user of abuse and refused to fix it free, that shows either a

company in financial trouble or a company that doesn't care about it's responsibilities.

 

It's one thing to excuse design blunders like the IR thing. To call a user a whiner because Leica presented them with

a big repair bill, or even to call someone a whiner because he thinks this is unethical behavior on Leica's part is a bit

much. Will Leica owners really submit to any abuse in the name of loyalty and not hold the company accountable in

a reasonable fashion? If it turned out that the lenses had a tendency to fall off the camera unexpectedly, would that

be ok if there was a warning about it in the manual? No. For heaven sake, the M8 should at least be as well made

as the legions of DSLRs who have no trouble locking to a tripod in either horizontal or vertical position.

 

People may be more willing to tear the M8 down because of it's price than they would the Canon Rebel XSi. Get

used to it. With higher price comes higher standards. The same problems at $500 are interesting and quirky. At

$5500 they're not so amusing. If you pay $12000 for a Corolla you won't expect as much from it as if you pay $50000

for a new Lexus. At that price it better be perfect, or at least it better be serviced politely and quickly if something

DOES go wrong, and if it's a design defect, it better be free.

[robertshults]

It seems to me that, in the linked thread, there is essentially no solid evidence that Leica stated "that shooting vertically on

a tripod was misuse of the camera".

 

This is a single, uncorroborated statement by an anonymous poster; the OP reported no such response, and a forum admin

has requested, but is yet to post, an official statement from Leica.

 

All of that said, I agree with Jerry Sousa. The M8's removable baseplate strikes me as a nostalgic relic, unnecessary on

this particular camera.

[aplumpton]

Robert, thank you for introducing a very pertinent fact, and some levelheadedness to the discussion. The rare

metallurgical casting failure still seems to me to be a more likely cause than design weakness. Any other broken

baseplates?

 

 

Yes, the M8 baseplate, as you, Jerry and Josh have suggested (possibly others), is an anachronism (and a

psychological marketing point for hard to switch over film Leaicaistes). Not at all needed. A battery compartment and

an SD card compartment could have been introduced to a fixed bottom structure, but hopefully not with the rubber door

cheapness of the present USB cable entry at the camera side.

 

 

I wish to state once more that nothing is perfect (even commercial aircraft seem to have more design and material

problems than cameras) and very few complain of the downsides of other camera company products. Leica is a hated

target of many. Taken as a whole, the M8 is an extremely capable picture making device. And it has in fact the added

advantage of LESS image-degrading IR blocking filtration (thinner filter) and the possibility of coming fairly close to the

much regretted and currently virtually unaccessible film IR B&W photography.

[blakley]

I love the M8, Arthur, and it gives me great results - I agree with you that it's an extremely capable picture making device. I've had some but not all of the widely publicized problems with the model, just as I've had other problems with other cameras. The M8 certainly has issues, but it's by no means a "turkey". I'd have to say, though, that I vote this issue a "design weakness" rather than a "rare casting failure".

 

It's not really true that film IR photography in B&W is "unaccessible"; you can easily order Ilford SFX or Rollei IR.

[michael s.]

Robert Shults wrote: <p>

 

<< ... <i> in the linked thread, there is essentially no solid evidence that Leica stated

"that shooting vertically on a tripod was misuse of the camera".<p>

 

This is a single, uncorroborated statement by an anonymous poster; the OP reported no such response, and a forum

admin has requested, but is yet to post, an official statement from Leica. </i> ...>><p>

 

Serious risk here: Please, Robert, don't confuse us with the facts. :-)

[vic_.]

<i>"... The M8's removable baseplate strikes me as a nostalgic relic, unnecessary on this particular camera. ..."</i>

<p>It might be nostalgic, but consider that aside from the removable top plate, the bottom of the body is the only

easy access point for servicing the innards of the camera. The various DSLRs have many access points, while the

P&S cameras are designed to be tossed into the evergrowing landfill of yesterday's electronics if even the slightest

thing goes awry. The rest of the M8 is a metal fortress, designed to withstand a beating. So a bit of nostalgia is

fine, as it also serves the larger good of service access.

[mark_h9]

I am quite surprised how this is being handled by Leica. I would advise you to get their marketing people to look at this blog. You might be surprised by their reaction.

[laverephoto]

A single door for the battery and the card is not more convenient unless you intend to change both at the same time (not

likely.) Mounting on a tripod for a vertical shot is an essential feature to a professional photographer. It is absurd to be

told otherwise. It makes no difference if the flaw is a metallurgical or design flaw to a photographer who just wants the

thing to work. Either way it is a quality control issue that Leica is responsible for. As a professional who works all week

with cameras that are far less expensive than Leicas, my expectations would be much higher. If I were faced with a

reliability issue of this type I would be forced to find an alternative model of body to replace it just so I could be sure not

to have another on the job equipment failure. Unfortunately, within the Leica brand, there are few alternatives. That is

the real danger here. If you only have one marketable camera body and its a dog you are in big trouble. One big flaw

could be fatal.

 

I don't think people relish the thought of Leica biting the dust. I think serious photographers take reliability and function

seriously because their reputations are on the line. They are quite legitimately terrified that something like this could

cause them problems on an important shoot. While the rest of the camera may work great, that is no consolation. I'm

glad the original poster brought this issue to our attention. Its true that no product is perfect but this is a perfectly

reasonable excuse to shop another brand.

[Sanford]

I thought the Leica warranty covered any type of damage, even fire...

[aplumpton]

Hi Bob and Sanford (Gerald). SFX is a good film, giving IR type effects although not true IR (it is red sensitive, not IR

sensitive) and I haven't tried Rollei IR. I am still coping with the demise of Konica IR (and before it Sakura IR) and

Kodak IR.

 

The present Leica guarantee on the M8 is like other digitals, much more limited than the no-fault Leica 3 year US

passport warranty on their film cameras and all their lenses.

 

Not sure the Leicatime half case with tripod socket would prevent the vertical tripod mount problem. It simply extends

the tripod socket and the case straps may not be rigid enough to prevent disaster. I've been using both (Luigi case or no

case) with light lens vertical shots on tripod with no problem to date. I wonder if Mohir Ali's vertical shot use was

withinwhat could be called gentle application insofar as the stressing of the camera was concerned. No offense intended

by this question but sometimes we can abuse the instrument, if only accidentally....

[Alex_Es]

One more thing to lose sleep over.

 

The idea that using the M8 in the vertical position is misuse is nonsense. Leica should have fixed the man's M8 under

warranty, I have found nothing in the downloaded owner's manual about using the camera on the tripod and there is only a

passing reference to the tripod socket.

 

All this is go to know. I've used my M8 on a tripod and on a monopod (to shoot Hamlet) in vertical. But from now on it is

staying off the both.

[vic_.]

Don't forget, you're supposed to be properly attired when handling Solms gear:

 

http://www.thesartorialist.blogspot.com/

[robertshults]

"...the bottom of the body is the only easy access point for servicing the innards of the camera."

 

Perhaps I should have said: The M8's USER-removable baseplate strikes me as a nostalgic relic, unnecessary on this

particular camera.

 

Service access is, indeed, an important concern, but such accessibility could certainly be accomplished in some manner

other than the latch system in use now

[robertshults]

"A single door for the battery and the card is not more convenient unless you intend to change both at the same time..."

 

Presently, the M8's card and battery are covered by a single plate that must be removed whether or not the user is

changing both at the same time.

[arthuryeo]

I have not had the need to use the M8 on the tripod often, let alone shooting vertically. After all, it is a Leica-M --- what is its intended usage 99% of the time, on tripod?

[aplumpton]

I found this note on LUF, dated May 24 2007. It was from Sean Reid and in conversation on this same subject:

It is obviously not current, but it sheds some useful light on this.

See also (my) capitalised warning of Sean.

 

 

"I called Leica about this yesterday and spoke with them for awhile. My contact at Leica USA called me today to let me

know two things:

 

1) This is the only case of an M8 breaking in this way that has been reported to them.

 

2) They have tried to replicate the failure in Germany (yesterday, I presume) and cannot.

 

I can say, again, that I've used multiple M8 bodies and, because of my testing, am *constantly* taking the base plate on

and off, constantly using tripods, etc. and I haven't experienced the problem.

 

My one caution would be that (as someone mentioned earlier in this thread) we should be careful about tightening the

bottom plate lock IF THE PLATE IS NOT FULLY SEATED (ie: the tab is not in the slot). That may have nothing to do

with Bill's camera failure but I think its a good practice in any case.

 

I myself, however, am not at all concerned about using the camera on a tripod.

 

I imagine Leica will take care of Bill.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean"

__________________

Sean Reid

http://www.reidreviews.com

[Allen Herbert]

What whiners. Whoever would put a Leica on a tripod anyway

 

I don’t know Rayshine .If you had to pick up a bill for 700 US just for using your (truly an ugly cam…sorry, I could

not resist) Canon on a tripod, the screams would have been heard from here to eternality. Jeeez, you might have

even made first contact…there’s a thought for NASA.

 

Reality is Leica produced a camera, in a rush, for the designer label brigade.

 

Truth be, it is not an M…it is something else, which has little to do with Leica quality or tradition.

 

In defence of Leica in the PS world…the Panlicker is the word……

 

Hmm,is not that the place they started...

[ilkka]

"the bottom of the body is the only easy access point for servicing the innards of the camera."

 

I suppose servicing in this case means changing the battery and memory card, not repairs carried out by the factory.

 

In just about all digital cameras I have or have seen, there is at least one door at the bottom for either battery or memory card or both. This is not a problem at all. All have also a tripod socket. Leica is the only one that has a removable tripod socket, and therein seems to lie the problem. Tripod socket needs to be solidly attached to the camera body. That should be common sense. I have a Leica M6 and the tripod socket is in the removable baseplate. But it does feel solid and attaches quite tightly to the body, possibly because it needs to be light tight.

[ilkka]

An extract from the official Leica website:

 

"Few things last a lifetime. A Leica M lasts longer.

Heat or cold, rain or dust - which photographer is put off by adverse conditions when in search of the perfect picture? The M needs to be hard-wearing, reliable and robust enough to survive the toughest situations. The designers of an M camera always give durability top priority. That's why only the best materials are used for the camera housing: brass for the cap and base and a highly stable metal alloy for the body. The digital components are carefully selected, too, to make sure they stand the test of practical wear and tear. Meticulous manufacture and careful assembly guarantee decades of reliable functioning to give the photographer as many years of enjoyment with his Leica M as possible. And that means a lifetime. And often longer."

[bill a.]

Don't worry. I hear they are going to sell an add-on filter with grid lines that allows you to align a vertical into a horizontal frame.

 

(sorry, couldn't resist)

[robert_clark]

"Few things last a lifetime. A Leica M lasts longer. Heat or cold, rain or dust - which photographer is put off by

adverse conditions when in search of the perfect picture? The M needs to be hard-wearing, reliable and robust

enough to survive the toughest situations. The designers of an M camera always give durability top priority. That's

why only the best materials are used for the camera housing: brass for the cap and base and a highly stable metal

alloy for the body. The digital components are carefully selected, too, to make sure they stand the test of practical

wear and tear. Meticulous manufacture and careful assembly guarantee decades of reliable functioning to give the

photographer as many years of enjoyment with his Leica M as possible. And that means a lifetime. And often longer."

 

If only they stood behind this marketing drivel.

[leicaglow]

It's ludicrous to assume everyone uses a Leica (or any other camera) the same way. I use mine on a tripod often. I also park my car away from areas where it will get door dings. Yes, I park my car in a way that most people don't. You can never assume a product will ever be used the same way by all the people using it.

 

I'm so glad I didn't buy an M8 when my "gut" was telling me the IR filter "feature" wasn't going to be the last "oops". I hope they figure it out on an M9. I really do want to believe.