Wanted: classic but cheap 35mm rangefinder

[bluphoto]

Hi guys,<br />

I'm an DSLR guy, I'm afraid, but I hanker back to the old days (before I was born), indeed I drive around in a car

built in 1967. I'm a child of the 60's born a decade too late.

<p>

So I'm looking for something a bit "retro", with classic lines and a nice solid feel. Somthing that you can smell the

assembly engineers sweat and tears in, but something that the engineers sweat and tears won't short circuit!

<p>

Something without the camel hump in the middle reminiscent of an SLR prism housing. I guess rangefinders are

therefore probably what I'm looking for

<p>

I don't want to spend a fortune, maybe a hundred pounds sterling or so. Leica's are nice but way too expensive for

me. Canonet is cheap, but doesn't seem to have the "engineered" feel about it. Are there any cheaper Leica copies?

Are they any good? I saw an unusual Russian Leica copy on ebay with German markings on it. Anyone know if they

would be any good?<p>

<p>

I want to stick with 35mm so I can process the film myself.

<p>

That said, I have no idea of what's out there, what it costs, what it feels like and what sort of pictures I can get from

it. I'm just looking for the kind of gritty B&W 10x8's from my parents wedding, back in the mid 60's.

<p>

Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

<p>

thanks<br />

Guy Carnegie

[bluphoto]

Okay, so I just visited http://www.cameraquest.com/fakerusk.htm and discovered that the fake Leica's are of questionable quality. So what else is there out there for me?

[lookupinwonder]

Hmm. Interesting. You might want to check out the RFF (RangeFinderForum). Google and you are there in a wink.

 

You can go for a Canonet at first. Shouldn't be too hard to find one that still works fine (mine was all of 20 euros at a camera show). You can get breathtaking results with it, but it doesn't have the build quality of a Leica. This is something that does matter with cameras this old.

 

Their are many more good cameras in the 'Canonet category' from Olympus, Minolta and Yashica. Little experience with them, but the guys at RFF know a lot about them.

 

Russian Leica copies (FED, Zorki) were made in the millions and are dirt cheap. They tend to need a bit of tinkering to get them to work right. I own a FED-5 which sort of works and the Industar lens is stellar. But the finder is cr*p and it is not worth it to have it cleaned. The 'Leica fakes' & German marking craze started out to fool people they had a real, rare Leica. Now everyone knows better, but they are fun in a warped kind of way ;-) They work just as well (or as badly) as an unmodified FED or Zorki.

 

As for 'real' Leicas, some screw mount (or copies) are not that expensive, and you can use cheap Russian screw mount lenses on them. M-Leica's are expensive no matter what.

 

Have also a look at Stephen Gandy's site (Google again), he has a wealth of info.

 

Hope this helps... but be warned, it's an addictive hobby.

[bluphoto]

Sorry to keep butting in, but it seems that the cheap end Canonets etc come in at around GBP10-20, with the Leica's coming in a GBP£400 upwards. Surely there's something in between, that is genuinely worth the money, in the same way that the Leica's are worth their asking price.

[lookupinwonder]

Ok, you already found Stephen ;-)

 

Why not go for a Bessa outfit? The only thing against it is that you won't have bragging rights.

 

As for quality, even a half decent Russki will yield extremely good pictures if you know what you are doing. You said you processed yourself, so you know what 35mm can and can't do. Tri-X at 1250 in Diafine is a sheer thrill.

[bluphoto]

Thanks Ronald,

I take it Stephen is our man in Moscow, right? I'll check out the RFF and post back.

[mike dixon]

The Kodak Retina IIIc has a great, finely-crafted mechanical feel to it, though it's more delicate than a Leica. The Schneider-Kreuznach 50/f2 is also very nice, and many of the cameras still have functioning, accurate selenium meters. The small, squinty viewfinder isn't so nice, though, but it's not to bad in good light. There are even 35mm/f4 and 80mm/f4 optical units that replace the front part of the lens, though focusing with them requires finding the distance, then resetting the focus according to marks on the lens.

[carl_johnson3]

Yashica GSN. 45mm f1.7 fixed lens rangefinder. Very quiet.

[Richard Williams]

'Canonets etc come in at around GBP10-20, with the Leica's coming in a GBP£400 upwards. Surely there's something in between, that is genuinely worth the money, in the same way that the Leica's are worth their asking price.'

 

How about a screwmount (LTM) Leica? You can still pick up decent camera bodies in the 150-200 GBP range, with lenses starting at about 50 GBP in the UK. However, any required servicing will obviously add to the final price. Ffordes.com has a IIIb + (rather battered) Summar for 195 GBP at the moment.

[SolaresLarrave]

The Konica S2 comes to mind. However, I must admit that, in terms of price, it competes with the Canonets. Still, if you

want to experiment these cameras, these are the three best (in terms of ease of use) to me. The Minoltas had the EV

system (the meter gave you an EV, and you had to match it to f-stop and shutterspeed). At least, the ones I was

interested on had this system, which is why I suddenly lost any passion for them.

 

Take care and have fun shopping!

[tom_holum]

Your best sources of information are the cameraquest website which you know and Ivor Matanle's Collecting and Using Classic Cameras, which most well-stocked public library should have. Once you have fully digested those sources, you will probably have as much theoretical understanding of rangefinder cameras as most photo.netters.

 

From among the cameras I know about personally, if you don't need interchangable lenses you can find beautiful examples of fixed 50mm-lensed classic cameras well within your budget on ebay, including the Voigtlander Vito B and Vitomatic II and IIa, the Zeiss Ikon Continas and Contessas, and the Agfa Super Silette, all beautifully-engineered German cameras.

 

The best cheap rangefinder cameras with interchangable lenses that are within your budget if you shop ebay with patience are probably the Canon rangefinders (which I have no personal experience with); a Canon rangefinder will allow you use of a whole range of excellent Leica thread mount (or "screwmount") lenses made by Leica, Canon, Nikon, and Voigtlander-Cosina. The very cheapest good rangefinders are undoubtedly the various models of the Kiev 4 made in the Ukraine after WWII. These are beautifully designed cameras and lenses...because they are basically an outright theft of the design of the pre-WWII Contax II made by Zeiss Ikon, the camera made famous by Robert Capa; they are good cameras if you are lucky to buy a good example, but their quality control was somewhat spotty: the one I bought was dirty, had a terrible tobacco smell and lifting leatherette, but it is in perfect mechanical condition and cost me all of $50.

 

Still, if you were my son asking for my advice, I'd tell you to save your pennies for a few years and then search ebay for a Leica IIIc with 50mm Elmar/f3.5. You can find them for $175-250 in good condition. After a clean/oil/adjustment by a good camera technician (another $100 or more), you will have a first rate camera, a true jewel of precision German engineering that will last a lifetime. It is a little slower to use than other cameras, but it will certainly give you a feel of the very best classic camera engineering, at one-half to one-third the price of a Leica M mount camera.

 

Good luck. Half the fun is in the search.

[tom_holum]

Oops! The Vito B and Zeiss Continas are not rangefinder cameras but require focussing by estimation or by a separate rangefinder. Still, fine cameras if you're just looking for the "classic camera" feel.

[lookupinwonder]

Stephen is Stephen Gandy of Cameraquest.

 

Anyway, I started with a Canonet but bought a Leica M2 a month later. 380 euros and another 200 for a CLA, 200 for a VC 35mm, 250 for a DR Summicron (a bargain). Not to brag or anything, but it gets quickly out of hand. And the M2 is woooonderful.

 

But starting out with an original Leica screwmount would be a wiser decision. As has been said, take care of it and it will last a lifetime. From how many consumer goods can you say that?

[astral]

Retina IIa and IIIc and almost any of the 'Barnack' LTM Leicas and clones are my preferred walkabout classics - I use several on a regular basis. The big plus with LTM cameras is the ability to change lenses - allowing new, old and 'antique' lenses to be used, as well as offering a choice of focal lengths. The squinty viewfinders are a pain, but are overcome by using an accessory viewfinder. I doubt that you'd be terminally dissatisfied with a Leica IIIa or IIIf ..... AC

 

BTW: MW Classic (mwclassic.co.uk) regularly have a choice of good value LTM gear, etc.

[don_e]

You could go with an FSU Leica copy and take your chances (or buy one that is cla'd and guaranteed from fedka.com

for a few hundred less than a Leica IIIf and 3.5 50 Elmar). I've found the Canon copies are not much cheaper

than the real thing. Auction prices, of course, vary and you might get a good deal.

 

I have a GIII Canonet and it is well built, at least as well built if not better than most 70s rangefinders, and

it can be used manually w/o a battery. Mine has dead electronics and it is a fine shooter. For cheap, the words

you want to see are "meter inoperative". They go for maybe a third the price of one with a good meter.

 

I have a Yashica Electro G, too, and recommend them. They are plentiful, inexpensive and the lens is excellent.

Get a later model with 1/1000 shutter speed if you can.

 

A total bargain if you can find a working one is an Agfa Optima -- most didn't come with a coupled rf, but some

models did. Bought a IIs for 4 US$ that was near mint. This is a pure Chrome Age camera. Nice rf and the 45mm

f/2.8 Color Apotar is pretty good for its age, plus it is deepset in the lens barrel and impervious to flair. If

the selenium meter is dead, the camera is dead, though. Optimas, I 've read, are relatively common in the UK.

 

The "gritty b&w" is not going to be a function of the camera, though, or even the lens, but film emulsion and devel.

[Richard Williams]

Just to fix Adam's link:

 

http://www.mwclassic.com

 

See also:

 

http://www.nemeng.com/leica/004e.shtml

 

(now a bit out of date)

[Alan Johnson]

For M39, the Jupiter 8 is a good 6 element lens, and plentiful. The 35mm lens may take a while to find and the 28mm Orion is as rare as hens teeth.There is a Helios viewfinder for 35 -85 mm or a rotary gadget for 28-135mm.I found ,having the FSU rangefinder,this is what is wanted next.

[ant_nio_ferreira]

Get a Canon 7. They are still cheap, and you get a sort of Leica SM with a good viewfinder. Get a meter, and you're ready for the road!

[patrick j dempsey]

In a sense... ALL the rangefinder cameras are "copies" of Leicas... or at least cameras inspired by Leica! If you want cheap, the fixed-lens cameras are going to be the cheapest. As mentioned, Olympus, Yashica, and Minolta made some great cameras, as well as Konica. The Yashica's and Minolta's tended to be rather large machines, about the size of an SLR. The Konica and Olympus cameras were much smaller, many of them being able to slip into a pocket. Many of these Japanese RF's featured automation and innovation well in advance of German cameras, or with Minolta and Olympus were often used to test features which later went into SLR bodies. All four of these companies were known for producing cameras with wickedly sharp glass.

[kris-bochenek]

I just bought Smena M8 still waiting for it. I wanted something to take to the party instead of my DSLR or Sony T33 and I think Smena will get a lot of attention.

PS it was only 9.99 + 20 dollars shipping from Eastern Europe.

 

Regards,

[rustys pics]

<p>Asking this question over at the Classic Camera forum would get you a more informed response. The Yashica

Electros are nearly all dead now. The Canonets are good, but over rated IMHO. Sure, you could get a vintage Leica IIIc

or IIIf, but it's no bargain and so pretty I promise you won't want to take it out. Someone mentioned the Kiev 4 camera

and I agree. </p>

<p>They are built like tanks, and were considered the premier Soviet Pro cameras of their day.They are not merely

copies of the Pre-War German Contax, <strong><em>they are</em></strong> pre-war Contax cameras built on the

same machinery which the Russians moved bolt by bolt to the Ukraine post WWII along with the German technicians.

You do have to watch for a good one, but many sellers fix them up before shipping to the U.S. and I have personally had

4 Kievs all of which worked, although looked rough. Older cameras have a better finish. I have one from 1965 which

seems to have original Zeiss Moroccan leather and is beautifully finished. </p>

<p>It's easy to tell what year a Kiev was made by looking at the serial on top of the shoe. The first two digits are the

year of manufacture. Supposedly 1979-1981 were bad years, but I have a 1981 vintage Kiev which looks ugly but works

fine.Some of the better lenses are the<strong> Jupiter 12</strong> wide angle, a copy of the pre war Zeiss design, and

the <strong>Helios 53mm</strong> standard lens, which is a Soviet design and superbly sharp and with great bokeh, if I

dare use that word! <a

href="http://www.russianplaza.com/Kiev%202%20%203%204%205%20range%20finder%20history.htm"

target="_parent">This is a good link</a> to distinguish the various models of the Kiev 40 year production run. </p>

[davebell]

Guy, I had a very similar urge recently. An urge I had no hope of suppressing, hard as I tried. I bought a mint condition 1936 Leica III off UK Ebay for GBP160. Then I got up at 6 one Saturday morning and drove down to Portobello Road in London on the off chance of picking up a 5cm F2 Summitar. Luckily I live about 10 minutes drive from the market, so getting there for the very early start wasn't too much of a pain. After a coffee the stall holder arrived and opened shop, he had the lens I was looking for, attached to a Leica IIIF. I asked how much for the lens, he replied GBP120 which is a good price as it is also in excellent condition throughout. I offered GBP100 which he accepted. Now I have a marvel of Leica engineering which really is a joy to own and use. I have put a few rolls of film through it mainly to confirm its operation, and it is fine. I own quite a few Canon L lenses which obviously feel so much more solid and well built compared to non-L lenses. My Leica is similar, just that it feels even better in terms of solidness and precision than any of my L lenses. I know its subjective, but everything on my Leica just works so smoothly just like the day it left the factory, I am sure. I don't plan using it very often, but when I do I feel it adds a dimension to my photography in that I am so much more considered about composition and when I trip the shutter. So from that respect I am hoping it makes me a better photographer. Rambling aside, you can pick up a good Leica III or similar from GBP120 or so for a well used sample. Here are a few links to UK sites where you could look:

 

http://www.peterloy.co.uk/Stocklist.htm

http://www.reddotcameras.co.uk/

http://www.richardcaplan.co.uk/

https://secure.ffordes.com/shop/Store/index.htm

 

Then I bought a Fed-2 with a Jupiter 8 off Ebay for GBP10.50. The rangefinder needs asjusting which I am going to attempt myself. While its also a cool camera, it feels like a plastic toy compared to the Leica. These are dime a dozen and very cheap, as are the Zorkis in various flavours.

 

Anyway, good luck!

[User_502260]

You can contact Greg Weber at gweber@webercamera.com or (402) 721-3873. He can get you going with a nicely overhauled Konica Auto S2 or Auto S1.6. These cameras have excellent lenses and can be adjusted to take silver oxide batteries instead of the older mercury ones. Other cameras which are about this size include the Minolta Hi-Matic 7S or 9 and the Olympus 35SP and 35SPN. Any camera this old will need an overhaul to be reliable.

[christopher_m]

Hi Guy,

<p>

After years in the SLR world, I found myself in a similar position as you a couple months ago.

 

<p>There's two classes of cameras, ones with interchangable lenses and ones without. The fixed lens cameras will

be much cheaper, as you noticed. This isn't necessarily a quality issue, just a supply & demand issue.

<p>

I first got a Canonet QL17 GIII. You really can't go too wrong. At worst you lose 10-20 quid, which is just a few beers.

If you go with a fixed lens camera, like the Canonet, you want the type that has full manual capability (the

cameraquest article will tell you which ones). Since the old meters don't always work the best or work at all, the

cameras with only aperature priority mode are flawed. The foam light seals on these cameras may have deterioated

by now, so you'd have to replace them. uscamera sells easy-to-install kits for about $15.

<p>

However, my interest didn't stop there and I quickly needed better! So I got a lighty-used Bessa R. The bodies often

go about $200. These are nice cameras for the money. The Bessa R has a much brighter viewfinder/rangefinder than

the Canonet. It also has interchangable lenses, and a nice TTL meter.

<p>

Lenses start at $25 (with shipping) for a old Russian, $130-$200 for a used Leica, Canon or Nikor, $200-$400 for the

newer Voigtlanders. The older Canon screw mounts are another option, like the Canon P or the Canon 7. They use

the same Leica Screwmount as the Bessa. These bodies are about $200-$300 depending on condition, so there's

not much of a price category difference between these and the Bessa.

<p>

Leica screwmount cameras are very difficult to load film, and I didn't like the seperate viewfinder and rangefinder.

Only the Leica III-g has the intergrated viewfinder and rangefinder, but these are expensive. The knob wind is more of

a pain than the lever.

<p>

Also you can get some other good suggestions at rangefinderforum.com

<p>

These were good links about the fixed lens rangefinders:

<p>

<a href="http://www.cameraquest.com/com35s.htm">Compact 35s</A><br>

<a href="http://www.mattdentonphoto.com/cameras/rangefinders.html">Matt Denton</A><br>

<a href="http://www.kyphoto.com/classics/canonet.html">KyPhoto</A><br>

<a href="http://www.photoethnography.com/ClassicCameras/index-frameset.html?

CanonCanonetGIIIQL17.html~mainFrame">Photo Ethnography</A>

[dave_redmann]

Add my vote for the Konica Auto S2: rangefinder, good 45mm f/1.8 lens with built-in collapsible hood, well-built (750 g), inexpensive, and reasonably available. I have one and like it. It took a 1.3 V Mercury battery, but there are several work-arounds for that.