Will the Nikon News Propel Canon to Move?

[asher]

<i>"your guys are acting like I'm attacking canon product...I'm not."</i><p>

 

Quite correct- it seems that it is in fact you who is shilling for Canon by arguing that a 2005 DSLR is obsolete, so give us something new.

[steve torelli]

"when you are selling images then you care the 5d is slow and old and you can't trust the lcd (i hear the chorus of the histogram works....yes it does) The main point is your guys are acting like I'm attacking canon product...I'm not. I'm attacking canon arrogance and laziness over the past two years."

 

Arrogance and laziness? What, because they don't introduce a new camera every six months with unnamed features that you want? If it's beneath your dignity, you can send that POS to me, Ill damn sure take it.

 

"The new 5DMKII is out ! When will the 5DMKIII be available?"

[asher]

Joseph, have you ever read <a href="http://jeffascough.typepad.com/wpj_resource/equipment/index.html"><u>this

terrific article by top wedding photographer, Jeff Ascough</u></a>?<br>

It's the second entry entitled "Cameras and the desire to upgrade".

[ilkka_nissila]

The difference is presumably that the EOS 5 uses consumer-class build and is very slow if you need to fire consequtive frames a lot. The D700 has Nikon's top-of-the-line autofocus and very good build quality. It fires at 8 fps if needed. Basically everything essential that the D3 does, but at 40% off the price and smaller body size.

 

The Nikon models aren't really aimed head-to-head with Canon's, but "in between".

[dmanthree]

Pretty funny; I posted my disappointment after seeing the D700 (in relation to the 5D) on an internet NG, and nearly got mugged. I agree it's a nice unit, but nothing that would make me consider giving up my 5D. And I really like Canon's f4 L lenses. Nice and light (relatively) with great build and optical quality.

[Spearhead]

<i>very slow if you need to fire consequtive frames a lot.</i><p>The number of people who truly "need" to fire rapid consecutive frames is miniscule. People may think they "need" this, but it only makes a difference in professional sports, pj, and certain specialty applications. I shot sports with a 10D when I first started using digital and have plenty of published images. It just takes a brain in the photographer's head.

[craig_gillette]

If Canon waits for Nikon and then responds, they are dead. Likewise, if Nikon waits for Canon, then responds,

they are dead. They have long term strategies in mind and aim at what they think the market will support and

what they can successfully supply. There are relatively few people working at the cutting edge or hampered by

limitations in current products. But they both (probably all of the makers) have marketing folks that love the

folks that "hate Canon" or "hate Nikon," that "need" that 1 fps faster or 5 frames more continuous, or agonize

over a 98% viewfinder instead of a 99% finder, or who couldn't live with or without a status display on the top

or a pop-up flash, etc., etc., and, the "I bought my first ...." in 1976 and I'm not changing now!" guys ought to

get checks every month for driving the forum frenzies.

[ilkka_nissila]

<i>The number of people who truly "need" to fire rapid consecutive frames is miniscule. </i>

<p>

Whatever. When you need it, you need it.

<p>

Let me give an example: I was photographing dancers who had long dresses, they were organized in two rows on stage. I was photographing a dancer who was in the second row. The clothes of the dancers in the front row blocked the view to the 2nd row in and out frequently and unpredictably. Unpredictably because my crop was such that I could only see either the back row dancer, or the blocking cloth. It was basically impossible to get useful frames in a short time. I tried 9fps and got several. 2nd example. Let's assume that someone is performing acrobatics. A jump sequence which happens once per performance day. What if you want to photograph it as a sequence?

<p>

It really doesn't require a brainless person to cause some DSLRs to not take pictures for a while.

[matthew_newton]

Well I am not upgrading from my Oly OM-1n, but I still like to see these new fangled technical innovations (or evolutions, or increments as the case may be). Craig you are right on with a lot of stuff you said, sometimes you just improve in small increments instead of leaps and bounds. Looking at the specs the D700 looks like a fine camera. My only real knock is that the magnification and view finder size appear pretty pathetic, though it certainly has the advantage of chimping if you need to which I cannot do with film.

 

Frankly if I ever get a dSLR it will probably be a Canon FF camera, mostly because of the film to flange distance on the ESO system allowing me to use all of my OM glass with the camera, even if it is in stop down mode for the operations (I frankly love my glass, and I don't earn a dime using it, so I'll use what I enjoy). Now if only Olympus would hear the cries of the masses and introduce a FF sensor in their line up. Maybe a full frame sensor using the OM bayonet mount and optional mechanical aperature control. *sigh*, yeah I know, probably never going to happen.

 

Anyway, the D700 looks fairly slick. If Canon introduces a new 5d replacement I can't see that as being anything but a good thing. Competition is healthy. Bouncing from camera system to camera system probably isn't.

[will king]

Ilkka, you missed Jeff's point. 90% of pro photographers are not going to be in that situation.

[derek_thornton1]

Joseph Carey, 5D to slow? What? Do you need speed for landscapes?

 

Craig Gillette, Canon or Nikon will never be dead. Pentax and Olympus are still kicking, in a way Minolta is still with us in the form of Sony.

 

Why all the fuss over the D700? This wont hurt Canon. I am a Nikon user and I still am thinking about purchasing a 5D with 17-40mm L for landscapes. I could get that combo for less than a D700. I can tell you that it will be a long while before Nikon offers an affordable FX (under $1800). When that time comes Canon may suffer a little, not much.

 

I still often think I should have gone Canon. I think I could have got more for the money. What made me go Nikon was quality. But, who is to say that Nikon is better quality. Word of mouth is not always fact. Nikon MAY have better optics but Canon still has a better, more affordable, DSLR.

[Karim Ghantous]

Really, some of you people... talking yourselves into a two-horse race. <i>As bloody usual</i>. Discussion of these issues are quite useful, but be a little broader in your outlooks. 'Mkay?

[stillbound]

i guess the only part of photography is landscapes...

I deal with people every day saying that they wish their 5d focused faster, wish that their 5d had a better screen, wish that their 5d was weather sealed, wish that it could control flashes wirelessly, wish that it was upgraded to the newest stuff.

if their are some of you that are happy with what you have that is awesome...the point of this whole discussion was do you think canon will react to this sooner than they were going to and will it be a true revolution. we all know photokina is in sep/oct and that we expected canon to have something there but will it be cutting edge or will canon continue the policy of incremental steps that they have had since they got into this...

The same people attacking me and the few others that feel canon needs to get off their ass are the same ones that have long complained about canon holding back on things in order to get us to buy more cameras. I for one was stung badly by the 1D2 to 1D2n situation...not that the N was that much better but that it was any better and cost the same and was for the most part firmware possible upgraded (other than the screen)

I said before and I'll say again - what i want is for canon to build a d700 so i can use all my glass which is better in my opinion than most of nikons...not all but most. I want 5/sec, fast autofocus, better build, 14 bit resolution, 12.8 mp...if they give me more then awesome. if they give me less then it's time to think about a new tool. that is all it is...

[craig_gillette]

My point is neither Canon nor Nikon, nor one might think the others, wait for a competitor to release something and then decide what to do. There have been a few times when an announced item was canned as it was becoming "overcome by events" but that's an unusual event. The OP's title was asking if Nikon's news was going to propel Canon to move. Canon never stopped moving. If I had to take anything from some of these recent releases, it would be, make sure the product is really ready. Of course, it seems like even if there was a "banding" or "focus" or whatever problem with some of these other recent cameras, it seems likely there will be plenty of people jumping at the chance to be "testers" anyways.

[mark u]

I suspect the features of the D700 have been much less of a surprise to Canon (even before they were publicised) than were the features of the D300. I think it's evident that Canon underestimated what Nikon would do with the D300 when they designed the 40D - with the result that the 40D is now offered for less than the original Digital Rebel/300D to try to gain sales traction. There has also been more of an interval since the teething problems with the 1D Mk III. Both of these, and the abnormally long life cycle of the 5D, suggest that Canon may have been hard at work to get their next cameras right.

 

One other thing to bear in mind is that although both Nikon and Canon are now producing steppers that are capable of exposing a full frame sensor without the need for stitching (thus increasing yield and lowering manufacturing cost), Canon has a much greater cumulative experience with manufacturing larger sensors, and probably a significant advantage in yields. I would not be totally surprised if Canon managed to market a full frame DSLR at the $1,500 price point before too long (they're not that far off already with the 5D). At $3,000, the D700 represents good value for what it is - but sales will be limited. There are probably 20 times as many buyers at $1,500 for a full frame body, even if it lacks all the bells and whistles of the D700.

[stephen sullivan]

It still holds true today:

 

Captain Spaulding to Mrs. Rittenhouse, "We'll set up a seventy-five-cent meal that will knock their eyes out. After we

knock their eyes out, we can charge 'em anything we want."

 

I think Nikon just told Mrs. Rittenhouse, "We've got a better meal, at a cheeper price."

 

Quote: Animal Crackers (1930) Graucho Marx

 

Captain Spaulding (Canon)

 

Mrs. Rittenhouse (Consumer)

 

Nikon, played by Nikon

[billfoster]

I do think that the D300 and D700 are game changers, but I don't think that Canon responds in the way you suggest. I work for a fairly high tech company and our product development is a couple years out. We are in a similar situation to canon in that we have only 2-4 serious compititors (albeit in a much smaller market) but I don't think we pay that much attention to them. We focus on making the best product we can and let marketing worry about differentiating it. From a product development standpoint, with the expense and lead times involved, that is all you can do.

 

That said, I do think that the new Nikon's low noise levels and the AF systems are spectaular and that is driving a lot of business their way and there is a lot to like about the 700. I have a 30D now and have been thinking about switching to a 300 D for about six months. Now, I think I am finally going to pull the trigger and go to the 700.

[derek_thornton1]

Joseph Carey, I see your point and agree 100%. But, you have to admit that the 5D is a very attractive camera for the landscape photographer. It will be years before we see a Nikon FX for less than $1,800.00. Although the 5D is an old camera it still fills a niche that is years away for Nikon. I was really peed to hear the D700 was going for 3 grand. That is still so far out of reach for the general public. I just dont see that helping Nikon.

[dogbert]

I think Canon have had the lead for a while, but agree with Mark U that they have underestimated Nikon, and to a

lesser extent Sony and Pentax in other classes of cameras. This doesn't suprise me, because the aggressive

strategies a company uses to get to number 1, are no longer as useful once you are number 1. In pricing and

developing aggressively to get to number 1 you are attacking others market share. Once you are on top, doing the

same thing canabalises your profit as you compete with yourself. As a consequence of being number 1 for so long,

Canon has become conservative.

 

It will be interesting to see if Canon's attempt to segment its product line, such a weather sealing only in 1 series

cameras, can survive when these features are being shoved into consumer cameras by Nikon and Pentax. Their

decision to go with incompatible EF-S mount lens is also looking like being the wrong choice, given Nikon's DX

compatibility.

 

Finally Canon are getting quite defensive with regards to their IS system. My recent Canon 450D came with a

glossy brochure extolling the virtues of IS lenses and why I needed them. It was quite sad really. After reading it, I

was more convinced than ever that IS is highly desirable, but what was missing from Canon's brochure was the fact

that they actually don't offer it in two thirds of their lenses, and you will pay big $ for it multiple times over if buying IS

systems in lenses. In fact after reading Canon's IS marketing brochure and how desirable it was to have IS, it made

me want to go out and buy a Pentax because I know my 35/2, 50/2.5, 100/2.8, 70-210/3.5-4.4 USM and Zenitar

fisheye are never going to benefit from Canon's approach to IS!

[eric_arnold]

canonites, i feel your pain. if it's any consolation, the d700 has a cheap memory slot, not the push-button chamber variety, but a rather inelegant sliding latch that seems benath a camera of that caliber. seriously, no need to worry. market competition can only benefit the consumer in the long run. i'm sure canon's got aces up its sleeve.

[mark u]

For a detailed insight into how Canon's thinking was last September, look at the entries for 17th September here:

 

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_5d2_archive.html

 

Given the lead times involved in product development, it gives a good insight to what may emerge. I also suspect that following a number of bloody noses with both lenses and cameras, Canon may be more inclined to do more prototype work than they have been doing of late, where they had adopted an approach of speeding time to market by relying on computerised design analysis.

[ty_mickan]

"and 1Ds3 is the best DSLR camera ever made"

 

hmmm.not sure what features on the 1dsmk3 make you think it is the best dslr ever made, but i can name quite a few features of my d3 that i really think set it apart. remember that 35mm cameras are not, nor ever have been, designed to take landscapes or studio shots. they are action, event and pj cameras.

[stillbound]

in response to the whole IS thing...

In camera IS is really awful - you can't see the results as you frame and it is not as effective. There is a reason that Pentax, olympus, sony, and at least two other minor players are fighting over 8% of the market. Remember that Minolta went out of business with 10% of the market. There is a reason that the two biggest (and best - no matter how much bs smack talking and nonsense there is between nikon and canon guys these two do make the best cameras SYSTEMS)

In any event - lets hope (as canon shooter not wanting to give up my glass) that the new offerings from Canon are up to snuff...

[glen_lovejoy]

Here's my 2 cents. This "debate" over Canon and Nikon has been going on for decades. Which is better, bla bla bla... Use what you like. If you're a gadget person who enjoys the thrill of upgradeing every time a new model comes out, Great. This horse has been dead for quite a while, when should we stop beating it?