Ballet Recital and Theatre Act Ethics

[willpridham]

Recently I was photographing from the stands (5th Row) at a ballet recital.

There was no flash photography allowed and no camcorders allowed, however

cameras were allowed. Some of the photos turned out very well and I want to use

a few for my portfolio... however, I can't without permission from the parents

and a release form. I would post the photos, but then that would be a breach...

 

Not wanting to breach this trust, I printed out large 8.5x11 bordered photos and

stapled a business card to the back (not destroying the actual photo). I asked

the woman running the recital if she could distribute these to some of the girls

so they could give their parents. My purpose was NOT TO MAKE money, but I would

give them free prints for the use of these photos in my portfolio (there were no

untasteful poses or such).

 

The woman running the recital then got upset because I took their photo without

their permission (privacy issue). I explained that I wasn't going to be using

any of them WITHOUT their permission hence, I was coming to her first so I could

contact the parents and explain what I was doing. It was a public recital and

cameras WERE ALLOWED. Also, they did not have a licensed photographer doing the

photos for them.

 

None of the parents that I talked to seemed upset. In fact, some seemed

downright disgusted with the fact that they couldn't get any photos of their kids.

 

Did I do anything unethical? I am seriously concerned that I did because that is

the last thing I want to do. In fact, I went out my way to make sure I didn't

get any shots that parents may view as compromising or uncomfortable.

 

I have a sneaking suspicion that this was more about money than privacy as they

were selling DVD's and stills of the show.

 

These places are great to show off work and improve, however, it seems that I

get hampered at every turn.

 

A response/or responses would be greatly appreciated.

[ellis_vener_photography]

I think the reason she is upset is not that you took photos butthat you are attempting to distribute them.

 

You also have to consider her liability -- if someone decides that yo uare invadign their child's privacy they may decide to go after the school (possibly perceived to have deeper pockets than you).

 

"Also, they did not have a licensed photographer doing the photos for them. "

 

vs.

 

"they were selling DVD's and stills of the show. "

 

Which is it? You are contradicting yourself. Yes it could be about money. But It could be about privacy or It could be about control issues. But to me it doesn't seem worth the hassle.

[willpridham]

A parent was at the back videotaping the show for free. The DVD was then sold by the dance studio as well as stills cut from the DVD. No payment was being given and the gentleman doing it was not doing it for a business.

 

Sorry, I never gave some background to this rant. My daughter was in the recital and I didn't go with the intention of photographing for my portfolio. However, due to our seats and lighting, I got the rare opportunity to do so. Also, they made it very clear that photography WAS ALLOWED, with the exception of flash photography.

 

I previously got consent from the ballet instructor and the parents to photograph my daughters class. I then got everyone to sign a release form and gave them all 8.5x11 free photos at my expense. I only gave out 10 of my best photos, not all of them. On the back of each I taped a card and explained that if they wanted these for free I will give them the digital file, whether or not, they gave me consent to use them.

 

At the recital, I was not the only one passing around photos as parents were sharing photos of each other's kids. Taken with either point-and-shoots or SLR's. Also, many of the parents wanted me to take photos as well as wanted my contact information.

 

Sorry for the mix-up but I've never quite dealt with this type of situation! I think I bent backwards here considering the situation. I have a real problem with her telling me I am not allowed to photograph, but the gentleman beside is allowed to (but the parents and hobbyists are)!

[willpridham]

I agree though with you Ellis, that it isn't worth the hassle. I just wanted to get another photographer's opinion.

[photobiscuits]

I think you've been very professional and generous in your attempts to obtain release forms. It's unfortunate that someone has to feel like a bigshot by standing in your way.

[willpridham]

I guess it's one of those fine lines that could be interpreted either way. Legally, I am 99.9% sure I am in the right, however, I do care about my ethics. My problem with this is that it is a dangerous can of worms that she may be opening, because if I can't photograph from the stands, then that means technically, no one should be able to because purposeful intent is impossible to decipher.

 

I have a couple of beautiful action images against a black back-drop that I don't need permission for as for the face is not identifiable (in mid-air). So, I guess I can work with that.

[felixg]

If you can back up the fact that cameras were allowed, and if you are not going to distribute the images, then there is nothing whatsoever (legally or ethically) to stop you putting the results <i>in your portfolio</i>.</p>

 

<p>There may be social reasons not to do so - for example, not wanting to be at loggerheads with your daughter's dance school, or not wanting to annoy self appointed child-image vgilantes. But no legal or ethical ones.

[willpridham]

I think that for the sake of my daughter, I will not use any of the images. It is a shame though. I'm sure others have run into similar situations.

[dirtlawyer]

The woman running the event was bent out of shape because you were in competition with her for print sales. As long as you aren't using your stills for commercial purposes, you have no problem. And if you have releases for the subjects, you can do whatever the releases permit.

 

If I ever get into this kind of trouble, I'll complain to the grandparents' union.

[willpridham]

LOL... Maybe I should lodge a complaint...

[daverhaas]

Will -

 

I just did something similar (my girls are in dance) and the dance shop didn't have a photographer... But they do have a video guy (Professional) who comes all the way from TX to MN to do this for them..(Must make a ton on this)

 

I sent the owner a link to my site with the photos up on it...haven't gotten a cease and desist yet, so doubt that I will. One other parent does the same thing (his kid(s) are in the dance lines, mine are in rec) and they don't seem to have issue with it.

 

Also I let the owner know that if anyone buys the photos I'll donate a portion of sales to their scholarship fund. Nice way to build a relationship and support them.

 

As far as usage of the photos... They're yours. My understanding is that you can use them in your portfolio as much as you want. Selling them is okay too... The catch is that let's say a client (buyer) wanted to use them in an ad for deodorant... RED FLAG...(For Them) ... They'd have to go to the kids in the picture and track down releases. One tricky thing is that even though you bought a ticket for the seat and photography was allowed, the dance recital was not public and the ticket issuer does have rights to control the usage of their art.

 

Check out Dan Heller's site... He's probably covered this there...

 

As to why the owner is mad... Agree 100% that they are upset because you are trying to cut into their sales. Even if your shots are better then theirs, it doesn't matter. They're selling stills from the DVD to make an income and you're a threat to it (esp if you're giving your prints away) Back to my 2nd paragraph... You get more bees with honey than vinegar.

 

Dave

[laverephoto]

I recently photographed a recital professionally and i will be posting the images online with password protection for parents. Any time you deal with kids you owe the parents great courtesy and care with the usage of the images. That said, private people who are welcomed to take photos at these events must be expected to share them as they see fit as long as they are not using the images commercially without the consent of the subject. As a photographer who "competes" with amateur photographers at events, I feel it is my responsibility to create better photos that are worth more so that clients will value them highly enough to spend money.

[willpridham]

Thanks for all the info guys.

 

I am NOT selling them. I have no desire to do this. i just want to use them in my portfolio. However, I can't even be sure the parents got the photos, althoug I have a sneaking suspicion and doubt it. I'll post a photo up here that is not in question from the recital (no face, no recognition).

[willpridham]

it prints out very nicely. As promised...<div></div>

[ellis_vener_photography]

quick question: what is the purpose of the portfolio?

[john_h.1]

"I can't even be sure the parents got the photos, althoug I have a sneaking suspicion and doubt it."

 

This raises a lot of questions. You offered to give these parents images or prints in exchange for releases authorizing the use of their children's likeness for you portfolio. That's good but, why wouldn't the parent's have possession of the prints then? Didn't you deliver the prints to them? You didn't get their addresses when getting the releases? Did you give these prints to the recital lady (which fails to satisfy your obligation to give the images to the parents)? I'm concerned you made an deal to allow the images to be used for your portfolio and then failed to deliver (pun intended) on your part of the bargain. This is confusing.

 

As to ethics issue, you were allowed to photograph just like anyone else, no one's privacy was invaded except that you may not have kept your end of the release contract. Other than that, the lady thinks she will make less money. That is what this is all about.

[willpridham]

Purpose of the Portfolio:

 

They were some good images, I just want the right to put them on my website or in my portfolio booklet.

 

"Offered to give parents pics in exchange for release"

 

No. I offered to give them the photos regardless of their release. I wasn't able to get to the parents because she wouldn't allow me to. I made the mistake of giving the photos to her and never got them back. There was no release contract. I am just trying to get a hold of the parents.

[willpridham]

I am really trying to see this from her point of view, unfortunately... I can't. I've bent over backwards trying not to hide anything from her by going to her as a professional courtesy (I didn't really have to). I spent my time and money and was willing to spend more to give the parents (if they wanted the photos) copies (I probably would have even framed some of them for the parents as I have some frames kicking around). All I asked in return was an opportunity to discuss with them a release with no obligation.

 

I am really confused as I've NEVER had a problem with this in the past. In fact, I usually go out of my way more than I should... or so I've been told.

 

I've taken Ellis' advice and decided not to pursue it as my daughter is in the ballet school. She is more important than a couple of photos.

 

Funny, I talked to a local photojournalist that I know about the situation and she said I have right over all the images for portfolio purposes, even if I don't get permission from the parents. I wouldn't sell them as I don't have those permissions. Apparantly though, the studio has a reputation among the newspaper photographers as being very difficult to deal with.

[BrianS1664879711]

I wouldn't hesitate to use a photo like the one you posted as a portfolio image. It is a very nice image and the dancer is not clearly identifiable. Any other images where the kid is identifiable, I'd suggest treading lightly just to be on the safe side. If your child is a student at the studio, can't she identify the kid and maybe you can make contact with the parent outside of the studio environment. It really doesn't amtter what the dance studio lady thinks (she'll get over it if she isn't over it already)... it is what the parent is agreeable to.

[willpridham]

My sentiments exactly!

[john_h.1]

"I offered to give them the photos regardless of their release. I wasn't able to get to the parents because she wouldn't allow me to. I made the mistake of giving the photos to her and never got them back. There was no release contract."

 

Oh, OK.

 

You spoke to various parents, some are described as seeming "downright disgusted with the fact that they couldn't get any photos of their kids.". You were in contact with parents then. If some were disgusted, why wouldn't they ask you for photos? This is also somewhat inconsistent with your explanation that you were "not the only one passing around photos". It does show some substantial parental contact which wass the time to bring up your proposal.

 

Also, you indicated that ' ...many of the parents wanted me to take photos as well as wanted my contact information.' Did you provide them with the information? I realize that you were trying to extend some kind of courtesy to the recital lady but, if your goal was to obtain releases from parents, you should have brought that up when you had all this contact with them about your photography at the event. It was totally unnecessary to go through this recital person which lead to this whole expensive and counter-productive episode.

 

A couple other issues... Why did you let the lady continue to possess the images if she was "upset" about their existence. Try to get them back. If she refuses, keep an eye out as they could appear again one day. I wouldn't put it past someone like this to try to use them for herself. Finally, Ellis asked a key question. What the purpose of the portfolio is for. If it just because you like to share your work with others then you don't need any releases as your local photojournalist says. If the portfolio is to promote your photography business, then you do.

 

I agree that your daughter should come first and that further efforts might lead some sort of petty reaction towards her. In future situations you should avoid creating unnecessary work and hurdles and just deal with the people you need to deal with.

 

 

some seemed downright disgusted with the fact that they couldn't get any photos of their kids.

 

 

 

Not wanting to breach this trust, I printed out large 8.5x11 bordered photos and stapled a business card to the back (not destroying the actual photo). I asked the woman running the recital if she could distribute these to some of the girls so they could give their parents. My purpose was NOT TO MAKE money, but I would give them free prints for the use of these photos in my portfolio (there were no untasteful poses or such).

[willpridham]

There were over 300 parents at the event. I have no way of knowing who they are.

 

You are right though and I've learnt my lesson. I should have just bypassed her completely.

[john_h.1]

That's a lot of parents. Good luck in the future.

[willpridham]

Just found out the absolute legal answer for this question. In Canada, consent is not needed period for any photography that will not be commercially sold. Portfolio purposes are fine. I've gotten this from a lawyer I know and from the police department. Our Privacy Act does not apply to photography not to be sold commercially. Also, there are no municipal bylaws stating otherwise.

 

The only act that may apply was the trespassing act, but that was up to the owner of the theatre, NOT the recital manager. Apparently I am absolutely, 100% in my rights according to greater legal minds than I.

[willpridham]

Addendum... "In Canada, consent is not needed period for an photography that will not be commercially sold."

 

Make that, in Ontario (as each province has different legislation)