Dont' you dare?

[tonmestrom]

It's probably a deja vu question for most of you but I'm a little

diasappointed by the lack of (substantiated)critiques on a lot of photo's (not

including my own here). That poses the question if most people don't dare,

don't know how to or just can't be bothered. For myself I got some very nice

reactions of some very nice people while trying to give substantiated

feedback. The fact remains however that a lot of people take the trouble to

post their images and don't get any comments. Rating is one thing but a

written feedback, whether positive or nagative, really can give insight. Any

ideas on how to get those raters going on writing comments?

[caincaptures]

Get rid of ratings.(this is just my thoughts) I do not think the ratings prove anything. I think this should be strictly critique work. It may weed out alot of the people that are in it only for the ratings. There is times when I look at a photo and think something is just terribly wrong with it, but I fail to comment it because of the reactions some give. It's definatly easier to praise a photo, rather than to give constructive critism.(I am just being completly honest with myself and others here) I have been here long enough to see the popularity thing. I try to comment back or view other peoples work that give me helpful feedback. If I do not see any, I simply do not comment. Rather than say "wow great photo!" and it not be something I care for.

 

I do not get a whole lot of time to sit and critique like some, but I do enjoy commenting when I have the time. I have rated quite a few in my time here, but only to learn that its not important. I spend more time commenting now rather than rating.

[caincaptures]

Correction

 

Rather than say "wow great photo!" and it not be something I care for. (I meant DONT care for) sheesh its too early.

[fredrik_steffen]

Agree with Julie, ratings don't give anything. I personally don't really rate any photos, but instead I try to comment one those I find. It doesn't really take that long to write two sentences that will help/guide/enlighten the photographer so much more than a rating ever would.

[phule]

When you submit a photo for critique you are submitting it to a community. It's no different than sticking it out on the sidewalk with a sign saying "tell me what you think." Most people will look, judge, and move on without saying a word. Some will stop and say a few things and the rare few will actually critique the work.

 

And of course, a lot of the time, when someone does offer an honest critique they're lambasted for what they say by the photographer who was probably just looking for back-slaps and has no interest in criticism.

 

Photo.net is a really big community. Everyone comes here with a different set of expectations. Given the number of users and the fact that there's no /requirement/ to critique, there's no reason to expect a lot of critiques.

[aginbyte]

Start to notice people who do critique, who actually have something to say, and invite that

person to critique a shot that you need/want feedback on. From my own personal

experience, I have found a number of people who do truly superb critiques, even if they

are not complimentary, they are honest and helpful. It takes time to be considered a

serious photographer, and the best here don't really spend much time with people they

don't consider serious. That's not an insult, it is just a reality of how to select among the

thousands asking for one's attention.

 

Of course, it is possible to "market" oneself into attention. Just go to a hundred people

and say how wonderful they are and chances are they will return to your site and say the

same thing. That happens all the time. But the serious recognize the others who are

serious, and they interact routinely.

[saskphotog]

When I first found photo.net, I was excited about the rating idea, and tried to contribute. My efforts soon revealed that the rating system is deeply flawed. I have stopped rating altogether.

 

I then looked at commenting, and tried a few. It was a lot tougher to come up with specific suggestions and "critical comments". I think commenting has the potential to be more useful to photographers, but the vast majority of comments are just fluff too. Many times comments I see are just statements of taste or preference as well, which I try to avoid in my comments (impossible?) and which do little to help. I have not done as much commenting as I should.

 

I don't think it is that I don't dare; it is more like it's very difficult. It just takes more energy than I am often willing to invest, and so I don't. I also don't think I should do much commenting without putting my images out for comment too, and that also takes time, and runs the risk of a whole lot of fluff comments that tell me nothing or are from people who know nothing.

 

Kind of a snob, aren't I.

 

Sorry.

 

I don't know of a way to provide a system of legitimate feedback for photographers that isn't open to becoming as unproductive as the rating system, or as demanding as a meaningful comment system.

[tonmestrom]

Thanks folks for your comment but to just answer some of your comments: Julie you're right, it's a whole lot easier to praise a photo but for me it's more important I get an honest one, even if it's negative. Fredrik, we seem to agree on the rating but its not my intention to get rid of it. A lot of people like it. But you're right it doesn't take that long to write a few lines that was my whole point.

Rob, you're spot on in your comment. Just the other day I got an e-mail from a member who told me, roughly translated, what a ignorant piece of .... I am. Funny thing is I'd given her a rather positive feedback. But should that put you off? I think the people who value feedback form a much larger group. Besides I'm old and wise enough to ignore a reaction like that.

[caincaptures]

No Larry I do not think so. You are just speaking your mind. THats what makes this a productive conversation.

[tonmestrom]

fact of the matter is, you're all right. Point is tough you can't fault anybody if the give an honest comment and it's always a pleasure getting one.

[bosshogg]

Ratings suck. Not getting any sucks worse. Comments range from some terrific discussions to the totally inane. Given a choice between totally inane and no comments, I guess I'll settle for inane. One other point is the fact that about three quarters of the time when you make a suggestion on an image, you have to accept that the person has already considered what you are saying and rejected it as a positive change (or at least they will say they have).

 

I've had some of the best intellectual exchanges about art of my life here on Pnet, so when I get frustrated, I sooth myself by recalling that simple fact. But those gems are few and far between, and one must work pretty hard to develop them.

 

One other thing. When I reach out to someone in the hopes that we might exchange ideas, I often go to their page and take note of some facts. If they have thousands of rates, but show a small number of rates of others, and if they have twice as many comments as they hand out, then I make no effort to mark them as interesting or to have further involvement. That is sad, because I can miss out on some good art, but in my mind those people do not contribute to the community, and I do not wish to encourage them. It does, indeed, take a community.

[cmitchell]

Since I'm just an amateur photographer and pretty new to PNet, I'm kinda reluctant to critique something I don't like. I don't know yet what makes a photo a 'good' one, I just know what I like and therefore, I'm much more apt to critique something I like to encourage the person. I have done a lot of rating, however, because to me I like being able to give it my rating before I can see what other's opinion is. With critiques, I sometimes get influenced by the previous critiques...yes, I'm weak minded. :)

[laurent-paul]

David,

 

"One other point is the fact that about three quarters of the time when you make a suggestion on an image, you have to accept that the person has already considered what you are saying and rejected it as a positive change (or at least they will say they have)."

 

That is actually when it becomes interesting : Because the simple fact to make a certain choice, which may take more or less time, but often many different versions, will result in a fainl photo, and people seeing it for the first time won;t know about the artistical and intellectual process.

 

Then these choices are actually going "against" the rules, it may produce a very interesting image, but it will also most of the time, make people wonder.

 

And if the photographer has to explain a choice about his picture to be understandable quickly, I think that is always very important to have questions and feedback, and especially the start of a discussion.

[Funtak]

Dennis Aubrey, I agree with you 100%. But under the skin, we are all red.

[bosshogg]

Laurent, I did not mean that statement to be necessarily negative. For one thing, if I give a suggestion, then I am trying to turn the image into my vision. If it is not my image, then I reckon I don't have a right to do that. I made the statement merely to make folks aware of the need to realize that. On a number of occasions, I've had an artist remark that they thought the idea was good, and they actually changed their image. That is gratifying, but, again, one has to be careful.

[AJHingel]

Like all here I'm not anymore rating any photo or asking for ratings. I just wander, where all

the raters hidning that decide what PN consider as "top photos", top portfolios" and "top photographers" ? They never seem to contribute to discussion on rating.

[nickjeftic]

Aesthetics and Originality are not rationally measurable.

 

Their values are ?In the eye of the beholder?, morphed and driven by one?s inherited character, education, experience, public opinion, moods, etc.

 

Both are just personal opinions and therefore should be treated as such.

 

This all is well understood by anyone who has ever asked for public opinion.

 

Since we are all here presumably to have some fun, mingle and learn something along the way, in order to maintain peace, the Critique Forum should possibly consider a more positive approach to grading, one more kind to delicate human feelings.

 

Here are some suggestions to administration to reduce their headaches:

Abandon negative grades for aesthetics. Make the grades descriptive starting e.g. form Nice and building up to Spectacular, Breathtaking or whatever. Whoever feels that a work isn?t worth of a nice grading should not grade at all but can contribute an explanative critique instead.

 

A grade should be introduced for Technical Performance since it is measurable, improvable and more helpful in constructive assessment of a photo.

 

An originality grade should also only be graded as positive and be a supplementary bonus for quality, not a basic one.

 

Arrange Critique Forums by themes and allow photos to be entered only under a certain subject. That way they would stay on the site longer and would be visited mostly by people interested in a specific subject. That way you will ease the effect of a Pop critique panel evaluating a Jazz musician?s performance and vice versa.

 

Finally, just relax people! Have a beer, put you footsies on the desk and just enjoy the pix!

 

Nick

[tonmestrom]

Thank you all people. Nick I just took your advice and feel completely in Zen now with a beer in my hand and my footsies on my desk.

Go forth and comment some more!

[timzeipekis]

Well said, Nick, nothing more to add.

[bosshogg]

Nick, I don't want to start a big argument, but I'm inclined to think you are espousing a system very similar to what I feel has infected our child rearing process, and not for the better. Everyone gets a ribbon, just for showing up. Nobody ever fails, they just didn't win. There are 16 valedictorians in every high school graduating class.... Well you get the idea. Trust me, I'm not one of those win at all cost types nor one that subscribes to the theory that the end justifies the means, and I repudiate the Lombardi concept of winning being the only thing. But, to deny quality and failure is to deny the reality of life.

 

I'm just a mediocre photographer. I try hard. I've got a fantasy of someday being discovered as God's gift to photography, but I know that I am mediocre, and I accept that. In this pool (Pnet) there are a lot of very good artists. If you wish to be compared in this company, then you have to be willing to accept the fact that we don't all get A s. I haven't checked lately, but I think my average ratings are about 4.2/4.3 and that's okay. I don't need someone to grade inflate my work to feel good about it. And I can always rationalize that you clods just don't understand it. Art is very subjective, but there is consensus in many aspects of art. To deny that bad art or mediocre art exists on the site is to stick your head in the sand. Rating and grading produce no ultimate answers, but making no distinctions produces no challenges. Just as the Oscars do not always represent the best in movies, and the politicians with the most votes are not always (ever?) the best leaders, the top rated photos and the most raved about images, may not be the art that endures. But it gives us a starting point.

[nickjeftic]

Hi David and hey, no need to worry about an argument! I am the Zen guy remember?

 

To quote Goethe: Since I?m in a hurry you will please excuse me for writing a long letter.

 

I am of the opinion that:

Positive grading is not what is ?rearing? our children today but it is consumer societies successful project of creating a world of obedient non-thinking consumers. The system doesn?t want people to think about what they like.. they just want them to choose form one of THEIR options.

They like to call it the Freedom of Choice.

 

From early childhood kids are fed with ready opinions, selected & filtered knowledge, clich鳬 guidelines on what is success and what is failure and first of all on how important in life it is to settle into conformity.

They like to call this: The Freedom of Thought.

 

Further they teach to be politically correct and that any major difference of opinion (outside the system) should be avoided.

They like to call it: The Freedom of Expression.

 

Which leads us to consensus which is a direct manifestation of the above aforementioned points and a tool to mend of one?s insecurity regarding his own identity. I mean, there was a general consensus at the time that Van Gogh was a mediocre painter. There was a general consensus that the Sun evolves around Earth. Wars have been waged and terrible atrocities have been committed due consensus?s. So what is the value of consensus?

And what is Art? Just a form of expression of ones feelings and thoughts. And like Evolution it has no negative.

 

But hey I?m a little off the track here.

 

If you look closely, the positive grading system I propose does not exclude negative grades. It requires negative grades to be explanative. In the current PN system aesthetics is described by a scale of 1-7 1 being Ugly and 7 Beautiful. This would mean that 3 is: mediocre with a tendency towards Ugly. How can a technically correct photo of a butterfly or flower have a tendency towards Ugly. Personally unappealing perhaps but never ugly!

 

The current system is much like your wife walking out on you without leaving a note!

 

Also lets make it clear I do not believe that we necessarily need a grading system. I just think that since its there it should be kinder since most of us are here for the fun. Personally I think that having a Critique Forum ONLY would be just fine.

 

Anyone interested in a professional opinion should send his work for evaluation to relevant institutions or enter competitions.

 

By the way Dave, you are not a mediocre photographer, you just take SOME mediocre pictures. But you have some really fine gems in there (especially the few abstract shots) which show that you DO have that spark in you! Perhaps it is the Lombardi system that keeps you form letting go and expressing yourself freely. As a basketball coach I used to tell my players: When you shoot do not wish for the ball to go in.. expect it!

 

And by the way Oscar?s NEVER represent the best in movies they represent the diplomatic, interest driven choice of the Hollywood clique which is a money making industry. Like sports. Like music. Like politics. Like education.

Just: Bread and Spectacle for the masses. It keeps us off the streets and earns them a good buck too!

 

Finally: The Reality of Life? Interesting concept Dave! We should get together sometime and discuss it over a beer and steak!

 

PS If you find some remarks incoherent or patronizing please note that it is due to the lack of literary finesse and not bad intention.

[sandysocks]

Let's rate everything. Let's rate white balance, contrast, composition, depth of field, saturation, shadow detail, sharpness, cropping, and last and perhaps least, originality and aesthetics. That would provide more information for you.

[charlesheckel]

I don't come here to play the ratings game, or to trade in fluff, and I don't expect much to come of most critiques because it's so difficult to make meaningful work and discuss it intelligently. I do gain a great deal from looking at the many very, very good pictures here, and I think of my comments on them as a foot in the door. Dennis Aubrey knows I will rarely comment on one of his pictures without at least one suggestion for improving it, and will likewise ask him to tell me what I'm doing wrong.<p>I think we have a pretty good system here, and it's up to us to make it work for us. That means we've got to develop the relationships we want. Personally, when I want specific kinds of feedback, I'll hunt for someone whose portfolio shows he knows his onions, and email him for a crit. What do you do?

[lonebearimages]

I have read this thread with some interest as it does encapsulate a lot of the learning experiences I've had here on PN. First, I have to say that it is through my interaction with all of you on PN that I believe that my photography continues to mature and I continue to learn.

 

Second, I do try and leave a meaningful comment and/or critique on images that I like. I don't rate images any longer; nor do I request ratings. IMHO, the application of ratings differs between each of us who give 'em. I'm not an art critic; but I do know what I like, and what I don't; and to some degree why I like it, or don't. So, I slowly came to the realization that my rating another person's work was meaningless, and perhaps even dangerously meaningless. I've evolved to a recognition that it is probably a lot more meaningful for me to tell the artist why I like his or her work; or provide my suggestion for 'improving' it.

 

Third, I remember what a bloody neophyte I was when I first signed up and began posting my images. So many of you went out of your way to give me some terrific feedback and advice for improving my photos. As I gained confidence and showed small, babysteps in improvement; many of you took the time to point that out, and continued to suggest areas for improvement. I have always felt that I am part of a family here; and I constantly strive to do that for others who are obviously just getting started.

 

I know that I probably can't offer a lot of meaningful suggestions for improvement to many of you. There are so many photographers here on PN who are nothing short of just plain inspirational to me; far too many to name. However, I do try and tell them, on specific images posted, what it is about their work that I like. It helps me to puzzle that out, and put it into words; those observations are something that I can then take away with me and hopefully apply in my own work. If those comments, of mine, are 'fluff' so be it; but it is how I learn and grow within my own work.

 

Finally, I've heard a lot of folks grumbling about PN and talking of leaving for parts unknown. About six months ago, I posted a number of my images on RedBubble. I have been acutely disappointed in the absolutely ridiculous interaction on that site. There's nothing remotely close to the dialog, technical, and artistic back-and-forth that we have over here on PN. Over there it is nothing more than, 'Great shot!' 'Whoa, Dude!' or 'Awesome!' I, for one, am becoming quite happy here on PN. Sure it'd be nice if we could figure out the ratings deal to everyone's satisfaction; but that ain't gonna happen. I just do 'critique only' and life goes on.

 

I have made some excellent friends here; gone on photo shoots with some of them; trade e-mails and ideas all the time. I just don't know where else a person could find this kind of community. Call me crazy, but I can't imagine my photography without PN.

 

I apologize for the length of this; I've used up more than my fair share of space here...Cheers! Chris

[tonmestrom]

Chris, don't apologise. So long as people as you can be found in any community, let alone this one, there is nothing to complain about. I just checked out your portfolio. Babysteps, my ass. You've got some great photo's there. Love you're b&w. Anyway, thanks from the guy that started this argument. Regards, Ton