Am I Being Too Much of A Stickler?

[karen_lippowiths]

First, I'm sorry this post is long. It's a question & rant all rolled in one.

 

Let me just say that I am definitely the type who tries to give very good customer service. Clients often

say that I exceed their expectations. I have a good book of business and get more and more calls every

week. Let me also say that I am somewhat of a stickler about working with people who are only a good

fit. I've turned down a handful of jobs for various reasons often because of a "bad vibe" when meeting

them. I'm usually right in my judgment of people. I *do* want to make money, but have learned from

doing business over many years that some jobs are not worth the headache and stress.

 

I got a call at around 11:00 p.m. the other night. No biggie, but 11:00 is a bit late. She was very

flattering in her message to me and wants me to work with her daughter. The woman said I could only

call her after hours (my outgoing message says I'm available 9:00 - 5:00 and I try to contain my

workday to those hours). Whatever. I called when she said to call. Left a message and said I would try

her again today. I called (within her approved calling time) and she was incredibly rude to me. She

basically said, "I don't know who you are. Oh, yeah, I called a few days ago. Well, I don't want to talk

about this now. Call back another time." I politely invited her to call me when it was a more

convenient time for her. She just reiterated that I should call her a different day then nearly hung up on

me. I didn't take it personally, but I was pretty put off.

 

I threw her number away. A few hours later, she called (I let it go into voicemail) and apologized for

being rude and said I should call her back as soon as I can. I'm definitely NOT going to this woman

back. I'm seeing red flags go WAY up. If she calls back and I answer, I'll simply say I'm booked for the

date she requested.

 

I guess my question is, where do you draw the line with people? I understand I'm a service provider,

but I really believe we are "in this together" and there is no reason to treat someone badly. My gut says

to walk (or rather, RUN) away, but there's a part of me who wonders if I should just let it roll a bit more

and deal with difficult people more than I do. I'm curious to hear other ideas of what's just "part of

doing business" and what's a clear "deal breaker." Am I being too much of a stickler?

 

I appreciate it if you've made it all the way through the long post and have any thoughts, examples,

advice on how YOU deal with difficult people.

 

:) Karen

[Matt Laur]

Difficult people? A very high quoted price. They tend to be used to that sort of thing, if they're always difficult in their dealings with service providers.

[SCL]

I'm no pro, but I agree with your assessment. It was the same in my business...if things didn't feel right from the start, they usually didn't get better. Best to gracefully bow out...there are enough trials and tribulations in life without having to purposely jump into a bad situation.

[BrianS1664879711]

You've done your part by returning her call. Unless you are starving, I'd wait and see if she calls back again. Then you can set some terms and reassess the situation. Things might be different the next time she calls. Until then, let it slide... like water off a duck's back.

[willperson]

I think that you should get back to the woman and see what she has to say. She may have a perfectly legitimate reason for being rude to you when you first returned her call. Now, I understand there is no reason for her to be rude to you like that, but let's say for example that she just heard some really bad news, i.e. someone close to her just passed. Things like this affect people in different ways and she may have been just trying to get off the phone with you so she could get back to dealing with whatever she was dealing with. I do agree though that you should be cautious and not get yourself into a situation that could be more trouble that it's worth, but I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, unless it becomes repetitive behavior. How's that for a short answer? Good luck!

[Leonard-just-Leonard]

Seems like you don't need any advice. You know when to take business and when not to. This has red flags, warning bells, 200 foot billboards shouting out "Avoid this like the plague" and you listened.

 

Personally, with difficult people I try to avoid/ignore them if at all possible. IF they push it, I am very direct and leave no doubt I want nothing to do with them, sometimes even tactfully ;)

 

Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell, and make them feel happy to be on their way... not my quote but it works for me.

[john_h.1]

Don't waste any more time on this.

[mark taubert]

I wouldnt bother any further with that job. There are plenty of other customers around who are worth doing the job for. Whats the problem with showing a little respect........nothing.......she didnt show you any so I wouldnt worry about any more.

[mark amy]

I think one of the luxuries of having your own good, steady business and being your own boss is being able to pick and choose the jobs you want to do and the people you work with. I wouldn't even waste a moment of my time on people like that.

[john_macpherson]

Hi Karen - heres another take from an ex Social Worker (20 years in disability services - often v difficult people to deal with) who is also a professional photographer of thirty years experience.

 

Perhaps the deal with this womans daughter, the one she wants you to work with, is that the gift of her portrait taken by you is to help resolve some family strife between them?

 

You phoned and caught her when the sh*t was hitting the fan, or had just done so and was being mopped up. Might be that the work you do for these people IS difficult, but it could also be very significant to both of them, and give you some really good portfolio material. I've done stuff like this that has had significant positive effect for people. You just never know.

 

Might be worth taking the plunge and communicating to find out the real story - your site would pull me in if I was looking for someone to do this sort of job with a hip and trendy daughter (albeit a difficult one).

 

You can always reserve the right to say no, but imho only say no when you know all the pertinent facts to make your decision an informed one.

 

Your 'giving back' arrangement is really nice, but perhaps this is a parent struggling to treat their child (one that has serious difficulties) as 'normal', and to approach you to do it as a 'giving back' deal would be to HAVE to confront the realities of their difficult situation. I've worked intimately with several families who have refused to accept that their child has serious and permanent difficulties and insist that stuff be done 'normally' because that's what they aspire to.

 

The decision to turn work down and appear unprofessional should ALWAYS be made in response to the facts not simply based on supposition.

 

Alternatively, with my business hat on....well red flags....usually signify an approaching train....and the previous advice could be complete horsesh*t and irrelvant, and you're dealing with a real pita!

 

ps - I looked at you site after you posted your previous message and was very pleasantly surprised - good work, nice feel to it, good layout and design and excellent images - not much info about you though although thats not so important as what you can do, but its still interesting to read.

[john_macpherson]

Hi Karen - heres another take from an ex Social Worker (20 years in disability services - often v difficult people to deal with) who is also a professional photographer of thirty years experience.

 

Perhaps the deal with this womans daughter, the one she wants you to work with, is that the gift of her portrait taken by you is to help resolve some family strife between them?

 

You phoned and caught her when the sh*t was hitting the fan, or had just done so and was being mopped up. Might be that the work you do for these people IS difficult, but it could also be very significant to both of them, and give you some really good portfolio material. I've done stuff like this that has had significant positive effect for people. You just never know.

 

Might be worth taking the plunge and communicating to find out the real story - your site would pull me in if I was looking for someone to do this sort of job with a hip and trendy daughter (albeit a difficult one).

 

You can always reserve the right to say no, but imho only say no when you know all the pertinent facts to make your decision an informed one.

 

Your 'giving back' arrangement is really nice, but perhaps this is a parent struggling to treat their child (one that has serious difficulties) as 'normal', and to approach you to do it as a 'giving back' deal would be to HAVE to confront the realities of their difficult situation. I've worked intimately with several families who have refused to accept that their child has serious and permanent difficulties and insist that stuff be done 'normally' because that's what they aspire to.

 

The decision to turn work down and appear unprofessional should ALWAYS be made in response to the facts not simply based on supposition.

 

Alternatively, with my business hat on....well red flags....usually signify an approaching train....and the previous advice could be complete horsesh*t and irrelvant, and you're dealing with a real pita!

 

ps - I looked at you site after you posted your previous message and was very pleasantly surprised - good work, nice feel to it, good layout and design and excellent images - not much info about you though although thats not so important as what you can do, but its still interesting to read.

[john_macpherson]

apologies for the double post - the server went awol when I posted and I hit post again.....

[jc5066]

Generally speaking, if their rude to you now, wait to they think they own you.

 

Granted, people have bad days and mess up. We all do. Trust your gut. Like you said, theirs more to life then money. Many times turning down one job will open up another.

[William Michael]

Yes you are.

 

>>> I threw her number away. A few hours later, she called (I let it go into voicemail) and apologized for being rude and said I should call her back as soon as I can. I'm definitely NOT going to [call] this woman back. I'm seeing red flags go WAY up. If she calls back and I answer, I'll simply say I'm booked for the date she requested. <<<

 

and

 

>>> I appreciate it if you've made it all the way through the long post and have any thoughts, examples, advice on how YOU deal with difficult people. <<<

 

One of the difficulties with having and using modern communications is ensuring we control them, not let them control us, and not to allow others to use them to control us: both in our private and business lives.

 

Whilst I understand your actions, I would have acted differently, at this point:

 

`A few hours later, she called (I let it go into voicemail) and apologized for being rude and said I should call her back as soon as I can.`

 

I can only envisage two reasons the call was `let go to voicemail`:

 

1. you have caller identification and were annoyed and did not wish to take the call.

 

2. the call went to voice mail automatically, you recognizing the voice, you decided the same as 1.

 

In either case, I understand and most likely I would have done the same, because I too most likely would have been quite annoyed.

 

But annoyed is a negative emotion, and I am in business, and I know:

 

Negative Emotions + Business = Poor Profits.

 

So, whether having received any apology or NOT; but having had the request made to call her back, `as soon as I can` I would have: but after I had prepared for the call and was sufficiently calm to make it: most likely within the hour.

 

The point here is control of the situation and the resolution of it.

 

The situation is now NOT controlled by YOU, nor has it been RESOLVED to YOUR satisfaction. You would not have written this post, and chosen the words to use in the post, if it were.

 

Small though this one element might be, such does affect one`s output, focus and quality of performance.

 

Moreover, you DID GET AN APOLOGY and you have subsequently chosen NOT to act upon a potential client`s request, and as far as the story has been told, any offence endured by you has received an apology, so I see that as `even`.

 

Look at it this way: the fact that, firstly, you have voice mail and that, secondly, your outgoing voice mail message says: `I'm available 9:00 - 5:00 and I try to contain my workday to those hours` means to me, as a potential customer, I could expect to leave a message at 11:00pm (or in fact anytime I choose) and reasonably ask you to return that call between specific times, OUTSIDE 9:00 to 5:00, that suit me and my specific needs, of which, by definition you are in complete ignorance.

 

So in this regard, the only item on the agenda for you to be annoyed about is the rudeness, which received a fairly prompt and unsolicited apology.

 

I believe you made a business error on both these two points, both because you let emotion control your business acumen.

 

It might be you choose not to work with this customer, but the decision not to at his time, is flawed, based on the information you have presented.

 

WW

[matt_needham]

"...there's a part of me who wonders if I should just let it roll a bit more and deal with difficult people more than I do."

 

Go ahead and work with a few of these "difficult people", and that part of you will quiet down, shrivel up, and eventually die from the stress. ;) I think your instincts are right on target. It's not at all too much to ask that people be able to have a short, polite phone conversation. If they can't handle that, then I'm not the right person to work with them. I'm sorry if they are at a particularly stressful point in their life; when they get that ironed out give me a call.

[William Kahn]

What do you think the chances are that anything starting out this badly will end up well? Let it go.

[William Michael]

>>> I'm sorry if they are at a particularly stressful point in their life; when they get that ironed out give me a call. <<< (Mn)

 

and:

 

>>> A few hours later, she called (I let it go into voicemail) and apologized for being rude and said I should call her back as soon as I can. <<< (KL) (original post)

 

?

 

The point is: it appears the prospective customer did (`get that ironed out`, and reasonably quickly) and then gave a call, (with an apology).

 

?

 

WW

[john_h.1]

I respectfully disagree with William. I don't believe there is any poor business judgment if you decline "to help resolve some family strife" or "tak[e]the plunge and communicating to find out the real story" or even" HAVE to confront the realities of their difficult situation". (These quotes are from John) While its nice the person apologized later on, its not the photographers emotions that are the problem here. Its the potential client's inability to govern their emotions and act in a civilized manner. Karen should not have to feel that she should put up with this conduct nor does it make business sense to deal customers prone to acting this way unless you have to.

 

I will also respectfully but more forcefully reject John's advice to only turn down business if you run some social studies and fact finding missions to get "all the pertinent facts" or adhere to some requirement that the decision "should ALWAYS be made in response to the facts not simply based on supposition." First, this is a photography business, not a pychologist office. Indulging in all this is a waste of time will easily lead to more problems. Second, when do all the facts really come in? After its to late and the job is accepted and regreted and third, it is common practice (because of tried and true experience) that gut feelings about customers in personal service industries have a high accuracy rate.

[William Michael]

John:

 

I always look forward to your thoughtful and thought-out comments.

 

>>> While its nice the person apologized later on, its not the photographers emotions that are the problem here. Its the potential client's inability to govern their emotions and act in a civilized manner. <<< (JH)

 

 

Point taken; understood; and agreed upon.

 

 

I still would have chosen to act as I described, and for the business reasons I stated.

 

 

But, more importantly, the wording of your comments alerted me to this:

 

 

>>> Karen should not have to feel that she should put up with this conduct<<< (JH)

 

 

It could have easily been misinterpreted, (by Karen, importantly), that I was suggesting she should, `put up with` poor or distasteful behaviour: This was NOT my intent.

 

 

The emotionless part of my comment (where I stated my opinion was that Karen let her emotions cloud her business acumen, was based on MY methods of working MY business: in this regard it was not my intention to suggest Karen (or any business person) endure emotional upset.

 

 

But this clause you scribed, really made me smile:

 

 

>>> nor does it make business sense to deal customers prone to acting this way unless you have to. <<< (JH)

 

 

 

Very well structured; linked and argued as a tight and succinct close: and very much appreciated for that.

 

 

On this point, we agree: neither of us, (I think), puts up with much `crap`: but I acknowledge that in this scenario, your cut off point would have been one phone call earlier than what mine might have been.

 

 

Such is a disagreement apropos the timing and execution of a business decision: but not a disagreement upon the principles or logic for that decision.

 

It`s Monday Morning here: have a great week, and don`t take too much idiotic behaviour :)

 

Cheers,

 

Bill

[john_macpherson]

"I will also respectfully but more forcefully reject John's advice to only turn down business if you run some social studies and fact finding missions to get "all the pertinent facts" or adhere to some requirement that the decision "should ALWAYS be made in response to the facts not simply based on supposition." First, this is a photography business, not a pychologist office. Indulging in all this is a waste of time will easily lead to more problems."

 

Social studies and fact finding missions?

 

What a load of uninformed and arrogantly sarcastic claptrap.

 

If you'd done some research yourself and perhaps tried to establish the facts in this case your response may have been different.

 

And if you'd actually read my post properly you'd maybe have noticed that the quote you gave "HAVE to confront the realities of their difficult situation"." referred to the PARENTS confronting the situation NOT THE PHOTOGRAPHER. Go back and read it again.

 

The one thing you apparently failed to do prior to offering your 'informed' response was actually get yourself acquainted with the 'facts' in this case.

 

Did you even look at the website of the individual who has posted her predicament? Had you done so you'd possibly have noticed that she advertises as being socially aware and has a section where she offers her services, presumably at no cost, "Giving Back" as she calls it, for:

 

* Chronically or terminally ill children

 

* Families separated by military deployment

 

etc etc

 

So....John....when she has made this a very prominent part of her business ethos you obviously think it acceptable to tell someone who calls who COULD be one of these families with difficulties, wishing to take her up on her offer, to take a hike. Yes?

 

"First, this is a photography business, not a pychologist office. Indulging in all this is a waste of time will easily lead to more problems."

 

You have obviously not done much real photography around people or you would realise there's a hell of a lot of psychology involved in doing good people pictures.

[William Michael]

>>> Did you even look at the website of the individual who has posted her predicament? <<< (JMacP)

 

Aside from the commentary between yourself and John H, I did look at Karen`s site, quite a while ago, and refreshed my memory prior to posting my first response.

 

Your comments (to John H) gave me pause to think: was I unduly influenced by the profile I developed from the information I retained after viewing Karen L`s website.

 

I do not think I was influenced, and I just responded as `what I would do if this happened to me?`

 

But, it is an interesting angle you bring up: to note various commentaries contained at Karen`s site, (some you mentioned some you did not), with respect to her post here.

 

This is an interesting development of a point perhaps considered by some (potential customers) as pivotal, in a very interesting discussion, and I am exceptionally curious to the read the replies (plural).

 

I am most interested in Karen`s view on all these developments and comments.

 

WW

[pclancy]

Karen, I'm guessing you generally make a pretty good profit (and deservedly so) on a pretty short relationship with most of these people. I think you might find yourself being glad you took on some of the less appealing cases.

[karen_lippowiths]

WOW! I had no idea this would elicit such a response from everyone. I really appreciate

the thoughts and perspectives you all provide here.

 

I did not (and do not plan to) call this woman back, as I stated above. After thinking it

through and sleeping on it, it became more and more apparent to me that this woman was

showing me who she is in her actions. Regardless of her situation or immediate

predicament, she was downright rude and rather scary -- I can't imagine working for

someone like this (well, actually I did when I was just out of college, which is why I work

for myself now).

 

To address some of your comments, I think the best policy is to follow one's gut instinct in

all matters. I'm getting better at this as I age (I'm in my mid 30s) and experience the

world time and again. With a few exceptions, I've been right about people. Often, I ignore

my own vibes for the sake of a buck, an opportunity, to "be nice," or whatever. I always

pay and end up grumbling the whole way through (which my husband loves hearing day

after day -- poor guy). In the end, life is too short and I want this to be as much fun as it

can be. I LOVE my work and don't want anyone to suck the life out of me. As I believe I

read in your profile, William W, you left the business "because the clients wore me out." I

empathize because I know how easily it can happen. I'm in this for the long-haul and

want to take a distance-runner's approach, slow and steady.

 

That said, I think what's still difficult to overcome are two things: first, the "unknown."

The "what if" factor. What if this was a big money client? what if I would have had a great

time on the shoot. What if I would have gotten the best shot of my life? What if . . . ?

That's human nature. There's always the temptation to open the Pandora's box. The

second issue is, of course, the fact that I let negative emotions overtake my logical

business decisions. I think this is also very human. (It may be a little "female" as well.)

I'm getting better and this is where I was seeking support from the group. Thank you!

 

To shine a bit more light on the "giving back" arrangement, I do offer a few shoots each

year pro bono and I actually end up donating a bit of cash to PPA charities, the local

hospital here in town, and to other organizations. I have very personal reasons to be

grateful for my time on earth and the ability to do what I do. Enough said about that.

 

On the other hand, I am a business, not a non-profit, and need to balance everything. To

be honest, a client's personal situation is neither my business nor my interest for the most

part. I have no idea if the prospective client at hand had a special need . . . she never

gave me enough time to figure that out, so I feel no sense of empathy for her personal

situation at this stage.

 

Finally, I have to say I feel good about how I'm running the business and how I'm putting

myself out there. I genuinely try to make people happy with my work and I'm getting a

positive response. I'm just trying to figure this game out . . . LOL!

 

Have a great night ! :)

 

Karen

[john_h.1]

Well John I think the bottom line is spelled out clearly in Karen's first paragraph after the introduction. You argue that all the facts must be known before turning away work. I disagree because it is a consuming hassle, without a magic ball, to wade through the possible motives and history of someone who chews you on the phone without provocation and that one's experienced instinct in judging a potential client's temperment is more often than not, correct.

 

I'm sure Karen will do what seems best here in any event.

[William Michael]

>>> I think the best policy is to follow one's gut instinct in all matters. I'm getting better at this as I age (I'm in my mid 30s) and experience the world time and again. With a few exceptions, I've been right about people. <<< (KL)

 

 

and

 

 

>>> The second issue is, of course, the fact that I let negative emotions overtake my logical business decisions. I think this is also very human. (It may be a little "female" as well.) <<< (KL)

 

 

I am not still no where near excellent at `gut instinct`: though much better than when I was 30 years old, but my ego still often gets in the way, for me to be receptive ENOUGH, at initial meetings.

 

I am not sure if the second issue (emotions clouding business judgement) is more an (underdeveloped) female trait: but I do think the first issue (gut instinct) is more developed, or better tuned, generally, in females than in males.

 

I have defaulted to female colleagues or employees to vet situations and personalities.

 

 

Certainly my wife is a zillion times better at it, than I.

 

 

>>> As I believe I read in your profile, William W, you left the business "because the clients wore me out." <<< (KL)

 

Yes and after a long lay off, I select or reject Photographic Jobs now: and they are all on a contract payment of my time and skill: very little for me to do after the event. I am happy with this particular business model, I am sure that this will not wear me out again. I have other business and personal interests.

 

 

The awareness of the potential of being worn out by any business is exceptionally valuable.

 

 

I believe your acknowledgement of that awareness will stand you and your business, in good stead and allow you to recognizing any adjustments you need to make, to allow a good balance of business and other life factors.

 

 

WW