Photography: Presentation or Creation

[jtk]

Fred, I suggest you look into Shia, Sunni, the one distinctly faith-related version of Islam (Sufi), the various versions of Judaism, and Catholicism... and into the scientific method, which defines science.

 

No, I did not say anyone was an "automated robot." Why did you invent that?

 

The mathematician/s was/were, like Galileo developing the telescope, serving remarkably mercantile cultures. Neither were created by a religion, nobody is, in any theology.

[Norma Desmond]

John-- The "automated robot" statement and mathematician had nothing to do with me.

 

You're avoiding my subject for some reason. I didn't ask for your opinion of Annie or who you

thought made the Dead. You asked me to make the connection between philosophy/logic

and photography/art and I did. Why not discuss the substance of that instead of going off on

a tangent about Phil Lesh?

[Allen Herbert]

Science is not "based on imagination," it's "based on" disciplined methodology that tests hypotheses

 

Leondo da Vinc

 

iThe mathematician/s was/were, like Galileo developing the telescope, serving remarkably mercantile cultures. Neither were created by a religion, nobody is, in any theology.

 

"It is through the works of Vedic religion that we gain the first literary evidence of Indian culture and hence mathematics. Written in Vedic Sanskrit the Vedic works, Vedas and Vedangas (and later Sulbasutras) are primarily religious in content"

[jtk]

Fred,

 

Sorry, I mistakenly addressed the "automated robot" line to you. I couldn't correct that.

 

You have said absolutely nothing about Leibowitz or Kant to which I could respond usefully and you have not tried to connect either of them to the topic at hand.

 

I knew Leibowitz indirectly (she was close to people to whom I was close), back when she was just another young woman with a Nikkormat. She's made good use of Rolling Stone. I think she's comparable to Mapplethorpe: lots of history and connections behind her, big supporting team, creative (or flashy), continuing to enjoy a 40 year career with her first employer. What more do you want me to say? She's no better than many that post here.

 

Garcia was reasonably good for a rock guitarist, had a distinctive sound (I played one of his SGs while it was being rewired), he wasn't a good bluegrass guitarist. He was nowhere near Joe Pass, Clarence White, Bireli Lagrene, Stevie Ray Vaughn or dozens of other guitarists. His play was led by Phil Lesh. I could try to make Jerry relate somehow to photography or "creativity" but you didn't bother, so what am I supposed to say? I've always loved the Dead, but they went downhill after their first Morning Dew and they never got better than Quicksilver (to be an antiquarian about this).

 

Kant isn't in my realm and you don't seem to consider him relevant to photography, as you've not tried to make the connection. Gurdjieff doesn't appear to be in your realm, yet he influenced a lot of photographers directly, particularly those connected with the creative program at Rochester Institute of Technology.

 

We could make long lists of people one or the other of us don't know, but unless we explain just a little, it looks like strutting. I mistakenly did that a while back with James Joyce.

[jtk]

Allen, your posts have been incoherent recently. Type more carefully, try to use sentences. I gather you think Vedic religion, whatever you mean by that, has something to do with Zero. So what?

[Norma Desmond]

John--

 

We are on very different wavelengths here. I don't know what more to say to make the

connection I made above obvious. I was very clear and precise in making the connections

and similarities between the way photography works and the way logic works, between the

way music operates and the way logic operates. I thought that was where the discussion

had led us. I was no longer making a point about the original topic, creation vs.

presentation. We had moved on to linear narrative and possible connections to

photography.

 

You have moved it into telling me what you know about Annie Leibowitz's life and career,

your opinions of her work, what you think of Jerry Garcia in relationship to other guitarists

you want me to know you know, all of which seems to have little relevance to whether

linear narrative applies to photography and art. This may be the place where thinking and

name-dropping have to part ways.

 

A direction to move in here would be, for instance, to respond to the notion I put forth

that Beethoven's crescendos are reached as the culmination of musical arguments. There's

my connection of linear narrative to art. It involves structure, the verbal or cognitive

structure of logical argument, the harmonic structure of musical argument. Or that Annie

Leibowitz (like her or not, I could care less) uses gradation of light on a face or a burn tool

along a wrinkle every bit as much symbolically as X + Y = Z. My claim is that we don't

respond to magic in photography, we respond for the most part to a symbolic visual

language very much comparable to the symbols of Math or Logic.

[cj_bas]

In the best of my own work I am just the equipment operator. The photograph was there for anyone to shoot, I just happened to be the one who did. The world is full of countless photographs for anyone to shoot.

 

I really don't start with a philosophy and then shoot. I just shoot.

 

But as to what photographs I like, it's a lot like music. I like photographs from all types of genres and styles, just as I like music from all genres and styles. But that doesn't mean I like all photographs or all pieces of music.

[jtk]

Fred, thank you for clarifying. We are on different wave lengths, but I think that's mostly a matter of where we each feel strongest.

 

I know it's possible for the twain to meet, but I did after all grow into manhood in San Francisco and Berkeley in the 60s/70s and what we learned then has all but vanished from the communal intellectual hard drive.

 

We've polarized more for simplicity's sake, we needed to being dumber, and we've been forced into fantasy versions of 1950s-style corners by various oppressive forces. A Renaissance has passed, and we're in an Inquisition.

[jtk]

CJ, following your line of thinking, do you believe musical performances and compositions are "out there for anyone" to do ("shoot") as well?

[cj_bas]

No. It takes a lot more skill to play a musical instrument than to operate a camera.

 

I never equated shooting a photograph with giving a musical performance or writing a musical composition. I compared experiencing the two, not creating the two.

[Norma Desmond]

John-- It's not "a matter of where we each feel strongest." It's that you refuse to engage in an

actual dialogue.

[Norma Desmond]

CJ: "It takes a lot more skill to play a musical instrument than to operate a camera."

 

I was hoping to see what that line of thinking leads to in terms of your own photography. Too

bad you have nothing posted and no web site. It would be interesting to see the results

gotten by a photographer who thinks that way about his/her craft.

[Norma Desmond]

Allen--

 

Thanks for your responses. I appreciate that you put emotion into your photographs.

Seems like an important consideration and element.

 

I guess what I was getting at with the two camps, understanding there will naturally be

overlap, was to ask if you are more interested in conveying something you believe you've

found or creating something you believe is new. As I look at a lot of the photos on PN, it

seems like the majority are trying to "capture" something, a moment, a curious sign, a

beautiful woman, a serene sunset. Fewer photographers here seem to be trying to create

something, whether it be a new way of seeing, a unique style of their own, a photo that is

actually an artistic statement. Trying to describe "creation" is a bit hard. I was hoping that

the distinction between presentation (or representation if you prefer) and creation would

just be understood and assumed. I admit it may need more clarification to be

comprehensible.

[jtk]

Fred, I've not "refused."

 

My turn to point finger: I have no idea what the hell you're trying to say at this point. This has to do with your writing. That you see a logic in Leibowitz's work doesn't make that logic linear.

 

Of greater concern, in a recent attack you revealed that you'd never bothered to read what I've said about "art." I'm disappointed with the interpersonal dimension.

 

We are both dumb as posts about dimensions we won't live long enough to explore. You're a better photographer than writer. I'd give you an A for one and a C for the other.

[Allen Herbert]

As it happens the scholar that invented the zero subscribed to that religion. The religion didn't do it, the mathematician did it. Science is not "based on imagination," it's "based on" disciplined methodology that tests hypotheses.

 

 

Imagination creates the desire to understand,John. Without the imagination there would be no desire. I can't help thinking John you have a "bread and butter understanding of life".Too much reading of others thoughts,without recourse to your own.

 

methodology that tests hypotheses.

 

Yes,John,thanks for stating an obvious fact,but again try looking further than the bricks of the building.

 

Allen, your posts have been incoherent recently. Type more carefully, try to use sentences.

 

Fred. My turn to point finger: I have no idea what the hell you're trying to say at this point. This has to do with your writing.

 

Ha ,have these statements got something to do with being an elitist,or purist;)Chill out John you seem to be getting very agitated with folk who do not share your points of view.

[Allen Herbert]

Fewer photographers here seem to be trying to create something, whether it be a new way of seeing, a unique style of their own, a photo that is actually an artistic statement.

 

I think there are some out there some,Fred. I think it's a case of searching through portfolios.Have a look in at the street forum, there's some interesting work taking place.

[cj_bas]

Fred, you can see a few of my photos here.

 

[Norma Desmond]

Allen, yes, there are some out there. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I scout them out

devotedly. I think the majority of photographers tend to present more than create. The street

forum, as you say, has much to offer. So does your own portfolio. In yours, I actually see what

I find to be a good combination of the two "camps." That combination feels like it comes

through both in the combination of photos within the portfolio and within many photos

themselves.

[Norma Desmond]

CJ--

 

What I'll say is that I've played the piano since I was six. I picked up a camera seriously for the

first time about 4 years ago. I believe I will need many years of camera practice to get my

photography where I hope to take it. I didn't expect to play the Waldstein in my first few years

and I don't expect to be as nuanced as Westin . . . ever!

 

To each, as it were, his or her own. I'm off to read a little about lighting so I can make better

portraits.

[cj_bas]

Fred, I'm sure you got a good photograph in less time that you got a good performance on the piano. Photography is the most egalatarian of art forms. Anyone with a camera can get a good photograph, and any camera that functions is just right for making some sort of photograph.

 

There's a lot that can be learned. You can learn how to light. You can look for the light that is already there.

 

The initial art that is in photography is accomplished or reached before the camera is even brought into play. It's a matter of seeing or conceivingof what you want to photograph. Everything beyond that is a matter of operating the equipment correctly.

[jtk]

Allen, you've recently created an intentional near-lie on one thread ("automatons") and sniped at me by name on another thread, totally unrelated to any post I made there. Something about me worries you.

 

Only when I asked you to be coherent, above, did you make the attempt. You can do that, when asked, as we've just seen.

 

I do have a "bread and butter" approach to life. And I'm diversely educated, formally and informally(you might read my bio on P.N). You caught on. Good.

 

There was no external reason for you to abuse me, immediately following your accurate B&B observation, nor for your earlier abuse, but your internal reason diagnoses itself.

[Allen Herbert]

John, abuse is rather a strong word. Playful good humour is my answer.However, when i put my mind to your thoughts,i will answer in a more concise way.<div></div>

[cj_bas]

Just an observation; but I've never heard anyone who was abusive admit to being abusive. "Playful good humor" is invariably ALWAYS what they call their own behavion.

 

I slso notice that when those people are subjected to the very same treatment they have subjected others to, they don't find it nearly so 'playful' or humorous.

 

Just an observation.

[Allen Herbert]

Just an observation

 

It's a shame some err very recent new members feel the need to stir with a wooden spoon. Perhaps they should look at their own err behavion.

 

Just an observation my old friend;)

 

John, having read your last post,it would seem i have upset you. I'm happy to apologise,if this is the case. Thanks for you compliments on my photos on a previous thread. Peace.

 

Fred, i see a lot of passion in your work, with skilled use of lighting.

[cj_bas]

Like I said (err)"

 

"I slso notice that when those people are subjected to the very same treatment they have subjected others to, they don't find it nearly so 'playful' or humorous. "

 

err