Harassed by Police for photography on playground. (Memory card confiscated and harassed by police)

[gaius1]

<blockquote>contact a local newspaper. If they don't help you, no one will</blockquote>Haha, are you kidding? Who do you think whipped up all the hysteria in the first place? Newspapers paranoid about "citizen journalists" destroying their business. Go to the ACLU, at least they're neutral.

[sknowles]

<p>Any bets your photos have already been downloaded and the card destroyed? I

recetnly saw what others have seen photographing groups of kids in public areas, the

chaperons are overly protective to the point of not talking with you first but reporting you

to the police. I didn't fully realize this until recently photographing on the University of

Washingto campus, specificially the <a href="http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?

folder_id=692432">Burke Museum</a> when I saw a group of kids crossing the street

going to the musuem. Reviewing the images, the adults were clearly "concerned" if not

worse, but being on the UW campus there wasn't much they could do about it.

 

<p>Suggestion? Next time when you finish a shoot, switch cards to a near empty one and

keep the full ones separate from the camera so if any authorities illegally confiscate the

camera, you have the images to prove your side of the story. And photographs any

ordinance signs about access and use of the park.

 

<p>Good luck.

[robert_m_johnson]

"Go to the ACLU, at least they're neutral.Go to the ACLU, at least they're neutral.Go to

the ACLU, at least they're neutral."

 

 

As one who has had occasion to call the ACLU, I can tell you that they are a joke!

[jonj]

I don't think you are wrong and would get an attorney. I think there is a time and place to photograph kids. I think the police have to understand why you are taking the pictures. If I ever photograph a child be sure there's no question about why I'm doing it...<div></div>

[kali goddess]

I agree that this sounds like a legal issue and should be dealt with as such. I also believe our civil liberites are important and must be defended. I like the comparison made to smoking in public. Is it obnoxious - perhaps, illegal-no. If we got rid of all the uncivilized people there would be very few of us left behind. And I agree that since this happened in America it is not necessary to include the social mores of other countries in this discussion.

 

As a side note:

Personally I wonder how many of these complaining parents are the same ones that in a few years will let their 13 year old kids dress like total sluts at school? After all, if they're that worried about other people's morals, you think they'd do a better job teaching them at home.

[Alex_Es]

Good old American cops.

[Alex_Es]

And good old American hysteria.

[dennisdixson]

It seems to me that what we need is more people taking photographs of children in parks. That way the perverts would be reluctant to be there because they might also be photographed.

 

Also on the matter of Adults not entering a playground without a child in tow, who says people with kids can't be perverts as well and use their kids to get close to other peoples kids?

 

It seems to me that most if not all of these restrictions are put in place by people who really do not think very clearly. In the end it's not worth the hassel to take photographs of other peoples children (probably not even your own).

[stephen_w.]

Dennis, I completely agree with ALL of your points.

[spanky]

I don't think anyone can fault the parents for calling the cops. It's the conduct of the responding officers that needs to be looked into. They certainly had the right to question your activities but to treat you as they did and to seize your equipment was out of line. I don't think it'd be too difficult to find a attorney who would take this case pro bono.

[fourfa]

<img src="http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/0465014909.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg">

<p>

this is a good read, touches on a lot of the issues discussed here

[Alex_Es]

I really wonder how easy it is to get redress against the cops in a case like this. When cops

acts the way these cops did it is because they know they can get away with it. It might be

easier on the soul to ask the local druid to cast a spell.

[Brad_]

People should remember only one side of the story is being told here...

[matt_m__toronto_]

robert edge: please stop name dropping all the different cultures and countries you have adventurously traveled. photographing veiled women and purchasing car insurance in jordan have NOTHING to do with this discussion.

 

i believe you said in one post you are a lawyer? if i'm wrong i'm sorry, but your responses are typical of the 'lawyer stereotype' - muddle the facts with mundane information and get loud.

 

do stick with the issue of vincent being treated horribly by someone of the law, his rights violated, and having personal property taken from him. (illegaly?)

[jacob_brown]

Paranoids are everywhere today, unfortunately.

[cenelsonfoto]

"Pervs are everywhere today, unfortunately."<p>

Mwakmwakmwak PERVERTS! mwakmwakmwakmwak EVERYWHERE! - go read some data, puhleeze.<p>

Your damned kids are under attack by corporate interests every day, grooming them to become wage slaves by the millions, to be sexy sluts for some Madison Ave ad-whore. Your <i>own</i> mind has been bent by media proclaiming <i>PERVERTS EVERYWHERE!</i> Beginning to wonder if anybody has a mind of their own these days.<p>

C.

[wigwam jones]

claudia,

 

To whom are you asking this?

 

If you are referring to Vincent Verna, if we take his story at face value, he was MHOB and the police confiscated his cameras and associated paraphernalia and required him to drive to the police station to get it back. When he appeared, he was read the riot act by a police officer and although he got the cameras back, he did not get his memory cards back. Additionally, he was threatened with being charged with a 'trumped up' crime if he ever photographed children again.

 

Now, as many here have said - we only have Vincent's word for this all having happened. If it did not, or if the truth is substantially different from Vincent's version of the story, then indeed, this may all be a tempest in a teapot.

 

If, however, the story is substantially true - I do not think he is over-reacting at all. Think about it - a police officer confiscates your possessions, then gives some of them back grudgingly, but refuses to give them all back - without charging you with any crime. Then he threatens to make up false charges if you do something that is perfectly legal (take photos of children).

 

Do you actually think this should be ignored?

 

My initial advice to Vincent still holds - I suggest he contact an attorney and get to the bottom of this. If the police are going around taking people's property without justification (or legal basis), that's a problem. If they are threatening to make up false criminal charges to prevent people from doing legal things that they don't happen to like, that's even worse. A phone call from an attorney should serve to set the wheels in motion to find out what happened. How is that over-reacting?

[tom ferguson]

I cannot remember why someone was talking about hiring cars in Jordan, but you definitely do need insurance. I hired cars several times there and you would have to be daft not to get insurance.

[wigwam jones]

Sorry, claudia. "You" gets a little generic over multiple thread participants. One never knows to whom you are responding unless by chance it appears directly below that person's statement. In your case, it did, but I didn't quite grok that. Sorry.

 

In any case, I do agree with CE that the common perception that there our culture is awash in perverts is essentially incorrect. It is a lot more reported now - and that's a good thing - but the fear-mongers would have us cowering in our homes, since every priest, every athletic coach, every school teacher, and every scout leader is undoubtedly drooling after our children - and so is everyone online. Parents should worry - and care about their children's safety. But the media should not blow everything out of proportion.

 

And the part of that which really bothers me is the constant refrain from those who wish to be protected from all of life's dangers. "If it saves the life of one innocent child, it is worth it to give up that liberty." Urgh.

[michael s.]

The other day, Mike Dixon addressed another statement that similarly hinted at an explosion in the number of predators. This is what he said:<p>

 

<i>Mike Dixon prolific poster, Mar 24, 2007; 04:07 a.m.<p>

 

[beginning with a quote from an earlier post]"i mean with all the perverts out there today,. . ."<p>

 

It would be much more accurate to say "with all the paranoia about perverts out there today." The overwhelming majority of child abductions are committed by family members (generally parents involved in a custody dispute), and the overwhelming majority of child sexual abuse is committed by family members or people known by the family. Random guys with cameras make good candidates for media attention and public outrage, but they represent a very, very, very small percentage of people committing crimes against children</i>. <p>

 

I strongly agree with Mike's post.

[sknowles]

I like Dennis' idea, "It seems to me that what we need is more people taking photographs of

children in parks. That way the perverts would be reluctant to be there because they might

also be photographed." Why not say you're photographing the adults and others to ensure

the safe environment of the children. You're providing a public service to the city and the

parents, documenting everyone there at that time free of charge. How can they call that

illegal? Wouldn't everyone love that, even the elected officials and media, "Photographer helps

make playgrounds safe."

[bob soltis]

Presuming your lawyer approves the idea, file a complaint against the officers and detective with the Internal Affairs Department of Detroit PD.

 

Good luck,

[cenelsonfoto]

<i>"Do you think you may be over-reacting just a leeeetle? I do."</i> - claudia smith, Mar 26, 2007; 03:14 p.m.<p>

Negatory. Nyet. Nein. Non. Uh-uh. You stated <i>"Pervs are everywhere today, unfortunately."</i> which is not even close to valid and reeks of the same paranoia that landed the OP in hot water to begin with. I think I was pretty fair in my comments, suggesting your... OUR... MY... kids are up Shit Creek without a paddle or, in too many instances, a stable, logical, grounded hand to guide them through, and the threat isn't perverts but those of the media and government that prey on our young people (and old) using fear and loathing in order to fuel consumerism and obedience/dependence, and corporations in need of low-dollar minions to staff ever-increasing service-sector staffing needs, all in the name of unparalleled profit.<p>

<i>""Pervs are everywhere today, unfortunately."</i><p>

Your words. Verbatim. And positively not accurate.<p>

The S&D forum is the last forum I cruise (perv pun there, didjya like it?) with regularity on photo.net, due largely to the fact that the subject matter greatly interests me and that I generally find Jeff Spirer to be a decent moderator. I've banged heads on pnet in the past, finally grew sick of the anonymous mods deleting without explanation and reason too often, cranked up my own forums, and away we went. I've never been able to attract enough attention there for others with similar S&D interests, so I continue to contribute here, off and on.<p>

That said, it pisses me off to no end when these discussions get sideways in the lane on behalf of folks who toss out inane, fallacious arguments and expect others to bite their tongues, others with a vested interest in public-space photography and concerned about the erosion of photographers' rights, in the USA, and elsewhere. This thread is not the first time we've seen statements like yours ("Pervs are everywhere today, unfortunately."), nor is this the first time we've seen folks who post these pitiful remarks attempt to sidestep the inevitable reaction to their comments, complaining in the process at the unfair treatment they're receiving. If people insist on chucking defenseless BS into the discussion, expect it to get challenged, chewed up, spit out.<p>

The USA has many faults, but one of the shining champions of our nation and society is the idea that all men are created equal, and all have the right to life, liberty, and happiness; that we are all endowed with the right to free speech and expression, no matter how heinous - I think Bill touched on something similar, but not going to backtrack to find out: The speech and expression of the most hateful is protected in order that my voice be free to sound out in protest.

<p>The right to free speech and expression, as I understand them, trump your or any others' need to feel secure from any imaginable threat.<p>

Perverts - what defines a pervert anyhow? I'm probably on that NO-BOARD list come to think of it... perverts are not the problem.<p>

What people think and feel is not criminal. The act is the issue, and what we should be concerned with, and unfortunately the best way to handle that end of it is on a case-by-case basis, not by blanket-partying the population with legislation criminalizing certain, non-harmful behaviors in the public space.<p>

My taking photographs is not a threat. I'm only interested in recording light as I see it. Sometimes the light reflecting from children at play is appealing to me and my camera. Still, not a threat.<p>

Does it make you or some other uncomfortable? Perhaps.<p>

Do I care? No.<p>

Does that make me rude or otherwise lacking civility? Again, perhaps, but as defined by who?; and why should I care about being considered rude or uncivilized, especially by people who lack fundamental understanding and appreciation for the Constitution and its protections against such attacks on our movements, our activities, our speech, our expression.<p>

My concern - note, not yet fear - is that our society, rocked by political and social issues, is hellbent down the same path taken by the UK. I don't need to elaborate on the surveilance matter there, or other issues pertaining to civil rights. Worse yet, the idea of our society becoming as restrictive as many in other parts of the world - where ANY protest, is met with a rifle butt. Where personal speech and expression is deemed blasphemy or heresy, or as being offensive to the State and punished accordingly.<p>

That dog won't hunt. Nossir.<p>

C.

[cenelsonfoto]

Yer free to have the opinion that "Pervs are everywhere today, unfortunately."

 

I'm free to point out that it's BS.

 

Other cultures are not this culture. They do not factor into this equation.

 

I have term papers due. Toodles.

 

C.

[ronaldo_r]

CE - your posts make no sense at all.