Image ratings on PN from a new members perspective

[mike dixon]

<i>just shut up and accept the chaotic rating system. </i><P>

The purpose of the numerical ratings system is provide the site with a way to identify (and present through the Top Rated Photos gallery) those photos which are most-popular among the site's members. As a learning tool, getting numbers from random strangers isn't particularly effective.<P>

To consistently get thoughtful critiques, you'll probably need to put effort into developing relationships with photographers who share your interests and who are willing to exchange critiques. It also helps if you give your impressions about the strengths and weaknesses of your image when asking for a critique (it helps to show that you're genuinely seeking feedback and not just fishing for praise).

[tails]

Mike, thank you for clearing that up re my post being deleted. I must admit, out of the countless forums I've joined I have never seen one so confusing as this. There doesnt seem to be a proper structure to it, which is why I posted where i did. In my defence I did look for a "better" or more appropriate place to post it but didnt see anything blatant. Please note, this is not a jab at photo.net by any means, its just an observation. I guess I'm simply used to forums like phpBB2, IPB Forums, VBulletin and SMF.

 

And Rob, yes I do believe what I stated. Not everyone is in a 1st world country where education is reasonably priced and freely available. In fact, I am currently saving to take a photography study course but its more than my monthly flat rental so it takes time getting the money.

 

You can study until you're blue in the face and know every little bit there is to know about photography, but if you dont have passion and an eye for it, you can only get so far. Unfortunately, we dont have many photography forums in South Africa where such beautiful photos are an inspiration and where professionls and amateurs alike can comment on each other's photos, so I do tend to make use of the international sites like this one as a "learning facility". As I stated before, I'm not expecting How To's or detailed essays on techniques, but rather inspiration, ideas, and "tips" if you will.

[phule]

<<And Rob, yes I do believe what I stated. Not everyone is in a 1st world country where education is reasonably priced and freely available. In fact, I am currently saving to take a photography study course but its more than my

monthly flat rental so it takes time getting the money.>>

 

I never once mentioned taking or paying for classes. I said if you want to learn you should study.

 

You could study other photos on photo.net. You could study using tutorials on this and other websites. You could study books in a library.

 

There are plenty of avenues for study that do not involve formal classes.

[johne37179]

OK, if an old guy can pass along a little wisdom. For about ten years I made my living as a

photographer (I since went to law school, practiced law, founded a software company,

etc.). There is not substitute for learning by doing. You learn more from your peers and

friends than any other source. You never stop learning. I have found PN, with all of its

faults, to be one of the great learning resources. Somewhere less than 1% of the work that

shows up here is among the best I have ever seen. Using it for inspiration and going out

and doing and comparing and doing again has been a wonderful experience for me.

Meeting some of the other people whose work is on here has been wonderful. I may rant a

bit, but I love this site.

[baerbel]

Is there a rating system out there, which would satisfy everyone? Probably not. If anonymous ratings were to be eliminated - high and especially low ratings would be returned in kind. The result would be no more low ratings. If comments would be tied to 3/3 ratings, those comments would not always be helpfull, as Rob pointed out. They may, however, eliminate the possible existance of 3/3 bots, so it might be worth a try. I have been a PN member for a couple of years now, and think the system is actually pretty good as is. Could it be improved? May be. But no system would make everyone happy and, even a good rating would not be good enough for some. Best not to take those numbers too important to begin with, for they are not. Barb

[frankphoto]

Dia agaibh.....Of course it's best not to take the ratings TOO seriously, but it IS very discouraging when you initially join P.N. to have some clown banging in 3/3's every time you post a photo....it can be confusing until you figure out for yourself exactly what's going on! For all the time and effort this clown puts in, HE at least, takes it VERY seriously! Anyway, I don't really think that it's any of my business if other members decide to take the rating system seriously....that's their CHOICE and I respect that. But there should be at least be a level playing field for these members....nobody should, in as far as it is possible, be allowed to manipulate the system for whatever advantage they gain from so doing, to the disadvantage of so many other members.. It's just not good enough!

Another point of interest (I have alluded to this in my comment above)is the reaction of the site administators to the very obvious dissatisfaction of members all over this site with the rating system as it presently exists. The administrator above, Mike Dixon, has entered this discussion and offers nothing of any substance to it...as usual he isn't even prepared to admit that there is a problem in the first place! He just trots out the old cant about how the system

never worked in the past, so we will all have to put up with it now and forever, because lousy and all as the system is, it might be worse if it we try to improve it(as has been done in the past). Confused? Well wait till you are my age! This has been intresting discussion , so lets not lose sight of the main thread of the discussion by getting bogged down in the minutiae of semantics ...when I see the cut and paste's beginning, I find the discussion ususlly going off track and often ceases to remain interesting! SLAN ....FRANK.

[phule]

Frank,

 

Your interpretation of the "Hero" icon next to Mike Dixon's name is incorrect.

 

Your understanding of the history of photo.net staff members concerns over the rating system is lacking. In fact, your understanding of the history of the rating system discussion is quite lacking.

 

Your conclusions, drawn from this shallow well, are quite simply wrong.

[tails]

Rob, where does Frank refer to Mike Dixon's "Hero" icon?

[phule]

He calls Mike an administrator. I've seen more than one person incorrectly interpret the Hero icon to mean "administrator" or "moderator."

[tails]

I would have thought Frank deduced his interpretation from Mike's comment to me about my post being deleted.

<BR><BR>

<I>"it was moved or removed because I cant find it anywhere and the emailed response link doesnt work...."

<BR><BR>

It was deleted because you posted a request for critiques in the Casual Conversations forum. The About This Forum section on the home page of that forum makes it quite clear that it is not the place for image critiques. Some of the topical forums, such as the Wedding and Events forum, allow critique requests for specific types of images which fit the topic of those forums.</I>

<BR><BR>

Incidentally, I came to the same conclusion.

<BR><BR>

Oh, and while I am typing a reply, I may as well add that although you didnt specify one had to spend money to learn, you did imply that learning by suggestion is not valid form of learning.

<BR><BR>

I have countless books and online references on photography, but nothing replaces actual input from photographers who have been doing this much longer than I have, or possibly have a different eye to my own. One can get stuck in a rut when it comes to photography, shooting the same subjects from the same or very similar angles all the time, and no amount of reading (books or online) or studying is going to help you change that. The best thing for it (note, I dont say "only thing"!) is for someone who has different tastes to guide another with comments and critiques.

[frankphoto]

Dia dhuit Rob, If, you say, I was mistaken in my assumption that Mike Dixon is an administrator than I can only offer my UNRESERVED APOLOGY to Mike and hope he can accept it. Sorry Mike!

I have only been a member for about 4 months and being somewhat technically challenged, I sometimes struggle with things technical.Perhaps this explains my 'shallow well' of knowledge. But I'm not a closed mind, I'm quite prepared to listen and to learn. SO, Rob, if you would be prepared to elucidate on your comments above by addressing the points I made above I might learn a lot. My experience of P.N. so far has been,in the main, positive and encouraging , but my photographic 'talent'is not of sufficient quality as to attract many critiques. In fact the majority of my photos are not critiqued...so where does this leave me? It leaves me with a rating system which, it seems, is quite inadequate. Virtually every time I post a photo some anonymous clown , within seconds, appends a rating of 3/3. At firstI found this to be very disconcerting and not very encouraging....until I realised that it happens almost systematically, and to other, much more talented photographers than me. Everywhere on this site I come across dissatisfactoin with the rating system...I have read reports of some very accomplished photographers leaving the site because of this.

So, am I mistaken in my assumption that there is something wrong with the system. And to whom do I address my complaints..I genuinely don't know how to contact 'the Elves'! Any time I come across comments buy 'the Elves' they seem to be written in a very defensive way, without addressing the issue and without even admitting that there is a problem. This has been my experience of P.N. and I'm sure other people have had diferent experiences and have very different views to mine.....and I don't have a problem with this. Sorry to be repeating myself. But Rob , I'm quite willing to learn if you are willing to explain....Slan FRANK.

[phule]

<<Incidentally, I came to the same conclusion.>>

 

Really? Because I said the same basic thing as Mark:

 

"Posting critique requests outside of the critique request forum is frowned upon for obvious reasons."

 

<<I may as well add that although you didnt specify one had to spend money to learn, you did imply that learning by suggestion is not valid form of learning.>>

 

I never did any such thing. I said that waiting for someone to feed you a suggestion is not a /useful/ way of learning.

 

<<and no amount of reading (books or online) or studying is going to help you change that.>>

 

I strongly reject that statement. Do not assume that just because a method for learning doesn't work for you it doesn't work for anyone else.

[frankphoto]

PS., I have just read Courtnay's posting above and she has hit the nail on the head with regards my reasons for thinking that Mike was an administrator .....It was not due to misinterpreting the Icon ! Thank you Courtnay. SLAN.....FRANK

[phule]

Frank,

 

There is nothing more to explain. Baerbel Kavanaugh has already very succinctly summarized the rating system:

 

"But no system would make everyone happy and, even a good rating would not be good enough for some. Best not to take those numbers too important to begin with, for they are not. Barb"

 

Mike sums up the solution very well:

 

"To consistently get thoughtful critiques, you'll probably need to put effort into developing relationships with photographers who share your interests and who are willing to exchange critiques. It also helps if you give your impressions about the strengths and weaknesses of your image when asking for a critique (it helps to show that you're genuinely seeking feedback and not just fishing for praise)."

 

 

If photo.net, the community, is to work, it needs both those giving and those receiving critiques to communicate. If you want to have an interaction with other photographers it is up to YOU to seek that interaction. It is up to YOU to make the effort to build relationships. Those that do this will be rewarded by finding other photographers seeking the same thing.

[tails]

Yes, Rob, but he stated it was deleted in a tone that made me assume he knew about if not deleted it himself.

 

Ok, I see your point in your statement ("I said that waiting for someone to feed you a suggestion is not a /useful/ way of learning.") but in the same breath I negate your comment and say, then, that no where did I say this was my only form of learning.

 

This is getting very much Off Topic here, so I withdraw my involvement in this conversation.

 

Finally, let me clarify my comment about "no amount of reading". Much like a singer, no amount of training can get a tone deaf person to sing in perfect key. They may think they sound good to themselves, but in actual fact sound dreadful (or maybe not quite that bad). If I may partially quote Charlie Waite in saying it is important to realise before anything else that all the technology in the world will not matter and all the skill you could possibly muster will not help you move one inch towards a good photograph, if your mind and attitude is not in the right shaoe. Your brain and eye are the most important pieces of equipment you have. Its not 100% fitting for this situation, but you get the point I'm trying to get across.

 

So, when I say that no amount of learning can change you, I mean that it can not make you "have an eye for photography" if it wasnt there in the first place.

 

But again, I digress. I have removed notifications for this topic and shall be participating no more, since obviously I am talking "out of my ass" here.

 

Cheers.

[phule]

<<So, when I say that no amount of learning can change you, I mean that it can not make you "have an eye for photography" if it wasnt there in the first place.>>

 

This level of elitism is sad to see. It's a real shame such ignorance is so pervasive

[tails]

PS: My pleasure, Frank :) I wish you well in your plight for a better rating system :)