Selenium toning of Efke and other Eastern European films

[big toys are better]

I was just thinking about the possibility of using selenium toning to extend the

overall tonal range as well as selectively impact that tonal range in some of

the current crop of Eastern Eurupean films like the Arista, Foma and Fotokemica

offerings at Freestyle, and this doesn't appear to have been discussed before.

I'm particularly interested in hearng about anyone's experiences with the

selenium toning of the Efke 25 film since it and Ilford's Fan-F+ are just about

the last of the really fine grained traditional films with normal tonal ranges,

but the other Efke films are also interesting given their richness in silver and

the potential of selenification of the silver to selectively alter the tonal

characteristics of final negative. Arista and Foma apparently aren't so rich in

silver but knowing more about them from those using them is of great interest as

well.

 

I say selectively above since I like to control my sheet film development in

moderately to highly diluted Rodinal to achieve particular contrast

characteristics, and the dilution of the stock selenium solution for toning

should also allow one to concentrate tonal intensification in either the more

highly silvered areas or with greater dilution to do more so in the midtones.

This hopefully will be nicely apparent with the highly silvered and very fined

grained Efke 25, and I'm sure it will work to a lesser degree with Pan-F+.

[pico_digoliardi]

Instead of going down that path (which I have without good results), you might want to look into the late Barry Thornton's DiXactol Ultra developer. (Photogphers's Formulary Catalog #1-5035) as their two-bath process and with their TF-4 alkaline fix.

 

It's a stain and taning developer.

 

See them at: http://www.photoformulary.com/

[pics]

Selenium is often used for intensification purposes to "beef" up thin negs. If your negatives are already well exposed an properly developed, all this will do is increase contrast. Just as with B+W paper, selenium works on areas with a higher density of exposed/developed silver first (regardless of the dilution you use.) For use with negatives this means your highlights will become affected first. Using higher dilutions is not going to cause it to predominantly affect the midtones as you have hypothesized, rather it simply slows down the process. Considering these slow, fine grained fillms tend to have issues with contrast and dense highlights, I'm not sure selenium intensification is what you are looking for. Also, the fact that many of these Eastern European films are so called "silver rich" is irrelevant since the excessive use of silver in these films has no effect on the final image. This is simply a result of the antiquated machinery they use which isn't precise enough to minimize wasteful use of silver during the coating process. The excess silver is simply fixed out during processing. Only a certain amount is needed to form an image and companies like Kodak and Ilford have figured out how to use just such an amount.

[big toys are better]

Unfortunately, those weren't the kind of responses I'd hoped for.

 

First of all, I'm not looking for an overall intensification process per se, nor is this designed to repair a failed exposure. I'm pondering the physical chemistry aspects which affect the diffusion of the selenium reagent into a negative and thus allow the creative photographer to target particular aspects of the image, just a careful development can selectively impact highlights, midtones or shadow areas. This can be accomplished with a toner just as a developer such as Rodinal works, although I had hoped to hear a few comments about variations in color caused by various dilutions of the selenium reagent. Obviously the selenium will only bind previously fixed silver so the deepest aspects of the shadows can not be affected by this method although a "tanning" method might have some success.

 

Secondly, I'm not at all convinced that Kodak and Ilford have so well perfected the layering of silver onto an image to the exclusion of those that would put more silver into the gelatin. In fact, the maximum density that a negative can hold is largely determined by the silver content that is fixed in place, and while this is not formed by a totally direct correlation between silver content and light exposure, the more silver to activate and the more light hitting it, the more silver there is to be "fixed". Thus a film like Efke 25 which has lots of very small silver particles will have particular characteristics that may be desirable. I'm also reminded that there is a love-hate relationship between many photographers and the tabular grained films which are somewhat intolerant to mistakes in exposure and development.

 

So Pico, what exactly were your experiences with selenium toning? Have you tried it with the very fine grained films like Pan-F+ and Ekfe 25, and in particular with sheet films like the Efke family? thanks!

[mark_sampson]

(It seems) the collective wisdom has it that selenium toning of the entire neg can do no more than raise contrast half a paper grade or so. That's been my experience, with Kodak Tri-X. Your idea is intriguing, but to prove it you're going to have to do some careful testing. I've never heard of anyone else trying it.

It is known that Alfred Steiglitz would use local intensification on certain parts of his negatives; that might possibly give the sort of results you are looking for. Details of his method might be hard to come by, though, and if they'd work the same way on modern films is yet another question. Good luck- and let us know what answers you come up with.

[big toys are better]

Lots of photographers have used mechanically localized intensification to improve their negative and/or their prints. Of course, if you have the perfect negative to begin with this isn't necessary. The thought I have here is to try it with sheets of the Efke films in particular but certainly it could be used elsewhere. I'd hoped someone else had tried this with Efke 25 in particular. Sorry to hear that is not yet the case.

[pics]

"I'm pondering the physical chemistry aspects which affect the diffusion of the selenium reagent into a negative and thus allow the creative photographer to target particular aspects of the image, just a careful development can selectively impact highlights, midtones or shadow areas. This can be accomplished with a toner just as a developer such as Rodinal works"

 

No it can't, the principles aren't the same. Using different dilutions of a developer can effectivley expand or contract contrast but selenium toning a neg is only going to do one thing: make your highlights more dense. Using higher dilutions only slows the process down giving you more control. I'm not aware of any method that causes selenium toner to affect anything but the dense areas of exposed and developed silver first (outside of local application to specific areas of the negative) Altering the dilutions isn't going to change this. The use of selenium on a neg is only going to cause an increase in contrast. Outside of this I'm not sure what you mean when you are pondering other creative purposes.

 

 

"In fact, the maximum density that a negative can hold is largely determined by the silver content that is fixed in place,"

 

Yes exactly. This excess silver in films like EFKE is not fixed in place but fixed out (removed) and has no impact whatsoever on maximum density. Modern films from Ilford and Kodak (T-grain or otherwise) can reach the same densities despite using less silver. You could go and create a film with 20x the amount of silver that is currently used in a modern emulsion, but almost none of it will be exposed and developed to form an image. Eastern European companies are shackled to their antiquated coating machinery and technology and retailers have come up with this clever "silver rich" term to push the product. That doesn't mean these films don't have characteristics some people like, but the amount of silver used is not the reason for them.

[big toys are better]

Mr. Lawton, I think that there may be some dispute as to your characterization of modern versus classical films, since exposure, development and contrast issues still seem to be more favorably controlled in the latter while the newest tabular grained films are popular for their sharpness/accutance capabilities which seem to help some aspects of film scanning. I don't claim to be highly knowledgable much less an expert on the latter, but I do understand the former issues with the thicker emulsions and smaller film grains.

 

BTW, IF you ponder the issues of a chemical reaction, the rate of a reaction will be limited in large part by the availability of the reactants. I don't know offhand what the characteristics of the selenium-silver reaction is, but I'm certain that limiting the availability of the selenium by dilution will control just how much selenium is deposited in a particular area of a negative since the rate of diffussion into the emulsion will be relatively constant regardless of the density of silver within it. Thus a midtone SHOULD get proportionately more silver selenation at high dilutions....

 

there are issues with color, however-- yet another aspect of toning.