srdjan_abdijevic1 Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 I think that "good eye" is maybe the only thing that one cannot learn. You can learn to "see more" but cannot learn to "see good" and "seeing more" is matter of practice. There is very few photographers who can do everything and everywhere and do it great. We all have particular fields of interest where we take "great" photos and particular enviroment in which we feel at home. So "good" eye is relative... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert_m_johnson Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 "I was really relieved to learn a "great" photographer might be happy with (ONE) picture they had taken that day. And a truely great photographer might be happy with 20 pictures taken that year..." BS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris888 Posted November 12, 2006 Share Posted November 12, 2006 How would you react to this statement: Don't necessarly go for a course, you may loose your individuality in the process and end up doing as others do, although a lot more may like what you do then of course.... I know it maybe like standing on a cliff..... How did the original excellent engineers, artists, etc came about presenting their abilities well. I think they had a 1-drive to go on, and 2-a sort of a logirithmic accellaration in learning by experiencing in practise, seeing problems and refine selutions, so they became finely tuned to the liking of all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juergenf Posted November 12, 2006 Share Posted November 12, 2006 Dave, shooting square format Polaroids really 'opened' my eye. It got me rid of thinking in '3:2' terms and this really helped me to be more creative with composition. JF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david j.lee Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 i've been reading about photography for years, visited hundreds of very good exhibitions from all the masters. believe me, i know a good photograph when i see one. still, i am working hard to make one good photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle shortes Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 I was once told that if Im going to be a pro then I should pic 1 or 2 fields of photography that are my strongest and go with them. My band photography - HORRIBLE My portraiture - started horrible. Now is great. Basically what I'm saying is that I've learned that its hard ot master every field. So dont expet to, constantly improve your storng points, and practice your weaker ones. This is my stand point on it. I do band photogrpahy on the side because the bands love it, and they pay me for it. So I dont have a problem with it. My heart lies in portraits/fashion photogrpahy, so that is what I will persue. Make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a._christopher_earle Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 Okay, I'm going to reply without reading the other responses. I think I'm most likely the opposite, photography is about as far into the sciences and engineering-like things as I want to get (so when I discovered that f-stops were logarhythmic, it was like an entire new universe opened up). For me, the key is two-fold, mebbe 3: 1. Wait until what you see through the viewfinder elicits an emotion, there is that split second with candids where the expression changes slightly, learning to feel the moment, the instant....ermm...and yeah, with candids, I chuck a lot of film in the wastebasket with 35mm.... 2. Don't look for absolute perfection in your own work. You'll never see it. I was a professional musician for years, and what I found was that I always HATED my playing, despised it. I'd get off stage and people would sometimes say "Wow, that was GREAT!" I didn't believe it, figured they were just being polite. It hit me when listening to recordings of live shows when I'd ask "Holy (#$@#$, who is the muddahfakkah on guitar???" and another band member would say "That's you, you idiot." (we had a LOT of other musicians sit in) I think that its really, really difficult to judge our own work, the emotional impact it has on people. If it ain't perfect in your eyes, don't worry about it. The arts are emotional, the sciences intellectual. Good photography for me starts with the emotion, then relies on the science to express that emotion. But, without the emotion in the miliseconds it takes eye to see, mind to say "NOW!!!" and finger to depress shutter release, the sciences can only do so much. Now for the "maybe 3" part. DON'T let other photogs criticism get to you, trust your own emotions and instict. With any art, you ain't gonna commoonicate with 100% of the people 100% of the time. Find your emotional zone, shoot it, and if some people don't like it, fugg'em. If you did what THEY would have liked, then another 33.3% of your audience wouldn't like it. An "eye" is really a bad term for what a photographer does, I think "a heart" would be better, in all honesty. BUT, of all the arts, photography has traditionally been far more cerebral and intellectual, and an awful lot of people raise eyebrows and are really uncomfortable with how I approach photography. And. Errrm. For years, I'd actually only proof 3 of 5 shots, and of the proofs, I'd print 1-2.....and of the prints, 1 in 10 would end up in my portfolio. When I started shooting medium format, the ratios went up. Unless I have a meter failure (like last week, )@#$@#$ 30 year old cameras can be cantankerous), I proof 10-12 of 15, print 5-6 of the proofs (which means dodging and burning to ensure consistent densities, I do a lot of high contrast stuff), and end up with far more good prints that I can actually put in my portfolio....which drives me nuts. Slowing down, really feeling the shot...mebbe?? I dunno?? Help any?? Maaan, I wish I had payed more attention in chemestry and higher math classes, hehehe....those are things I've learned, but things that don't come naturally. So. Can an "eye" be learned? Sure. Listen to your emotions :-).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaby Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 I am also not an artist, and it was very difficult to me to start think "artist", but i found some shortcuts to improve my pictures, first - to read about painting, because ther is more literature about paint then about photigraphy that analyze the pictuer professionally, second - WRITE more critics!, if you writing critics you attempt to analyze the picture, and when you write it - you translate it from "thinking" to "doing", after - when you shooting,- you "know" what are the mistakes in the picture when you see it in the frame, last - take LESS pictures! give more attention to any one of them. I hope its can help you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vallery Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 I am a musician and published artist. I am using photos as another means of artistic expression, however, I am having to span the bridge between the two. I am not a technician with the camera but want to know more so I can close that gap. The advice in the forum for you is great. But one thing you should know - You have to turn your back on what you are trying so hard to do so that it can come to you. After struggling let it go for a week or so, get back to it and experiment! and then experiment some more. When learning a new technique on bass, i struggle, then I don't pick up the instrument for a week or two. Then I pick it up and it is like magic-it's there! Same is true in art as in photography. You have the technical expertise now let it go and experiment. YOu will be surprised at the results. Logic then creativity.... vallery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mg Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 Can a good eye be learned ? Yes. But it takes a lot of humility anda careful attempt at always raising new and different questions about your own work. The danger is to be trapped in a way to see things and not knowing it, or not knowing what's good and bad in your photographic perception of the world. Is it something you need to be "born with" ? No. BUT... I think you need to be born with a very *large* mind; by "large", I mean that you need to be able to question every single notion involved in your deepest beliefs. If you can't do that - and it's a darn difficult thing to do -, then you could end up doing the same wrong thing for 30 years in a row. For many years working as a professional photographer, I believe I was just too involved in technique and composition, which are just step one and step two on the learning curve of photography, and without knowing it, I was in fact reluctant to dig deep down in my own soul, which is where my very own vision was hiding. I found out about the above about a year or two years ago, as I tried to "recover some creative freedom". I've since relearned how to really listen to myself and to let my true self appear in my work. For me, that was so far, and by far, the most difficult step in photography. On a different note... I read above the following: "A good eye (photographically) does not see the greatness of an image, it sees the faults. If you take away the bad, then you are left with the good." I used to think that way, till about 1 or 2 years ago. Now I think exactly the opposite. In fact, most likely, if you take the bad away from a fairly ordinary photo, what will be left won't be much - or possibly nothing at all. What I have come to learn is that the "art of composing well" and such are just a load of useful tricks. The gitz of great photography is elsewhere. To me, once a photographer starts to understand the semantics of an image - i.e. which part of an image means what exactly in connection with the other parts -, he's already a step beyond these tricks. A great photograph is a photo that shows a meaning beyond the obvious. What most photographers will see as "not working", in a composition that shows a meaning beyond the obvious, will in fact work just fine for those who have a well opened mind. Great pictures can afford a few little so-called "flows", precisely because they are great - which means that they carry a true vision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeman458 Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 "I was in fact reluctant to dig deep down in my own soul, which is where my very own vision was hiding." I see it, on my part, as a lack of commitment. I'm stuck in a certain pedestrian existance (not a bad thing) and the day-to-day "stuff" keeps me from disappearing into the photographic abyss. The key issue, are you willing to commit or are you staying superfical in your efforts. Myself, I see the need to commit and dig through two more levels of existance, at minimum, to punch through to the otherside. "Break On through The Other Side. Jim Morrison: The Doors You know the day destroys the night Night divides the day Tried to run Tried to hide Break on through to the other side.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugstervision Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 Yes, a 'good eye' can be learned. Read books about art and composition. Begin to think in visual terms- color, line, space, and lighting. Soon you will begin to see that telephone poll behind the person's head, and from there you will begin to see combinations of elements that please you, that resonate. If you do not appreciate the visual arts in general, you will never be a good photographer. Avoid clutter and distracting elements when you are composing. Those bad elements may be lines, or colors, or any other formal element. Be aware of areas of high contrast. The observer's eye will gravitate to that area. Be aware of how your photo will be read by a viewer. Is it read quickly? Too quickly? Be aware of the psychological elements, like 'mystery', ambiguities, clear ideas, provocative, humorous, etc. Be aware of the emotional power of color. Who are your favorite painters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_b.arglebargle Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 I believe that the dissatisfaction you feel towards your work is the spark that can help you improve. If you thought all your photos were perfect you would never get better. Don't think of your subpar photos as failures, think of them as warming up, as getting into the zone. There is a Japanese concept I read of once that states if you never fail at something, that just means you aren't trying hard enough. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
see_r Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 This question still needs a proper response--> "...it make any difference which eye you use when taking pictures?? Do pictures taken using the left eye (and therefore, right brain - artsy fartsy side) have any greater artistic value and/or merit than those taken with the right eye??" It is, in fact the left visual field of EACH eye that is processed by A VERY SPECIFIC PORTION of the right side of the brain and visa versa. And beyond that, the whole left right side of the brain thing IMHO is off the current topic. And with that said, I am going to add to my comment about getting off of photo.net for a while. After you come back to photo.net, what I would do is look at some of the work here on photo.net of the photographers whose work you admire. Study their work VERY carefully and read EVERY single thing they write here to try to figure out the elements of their approach that allowed them to do what they did. In my case, I would like to try to shoot the ocean after a fresh rain using a warming polarizing filter with a time exposure up to 30 seconds using Velvia film...I got that idea from studying a photographer on this site (sorry, forgot his name...dude is in Hawaii). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
architecture Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 I suck at the technical aspects of photography, but i've made a modest living for the past 2yrs on my compositional abilities. I trained myself to not look at a scene with my regular eyes, but rather, all I see are lines. The first response was the best...Take a drawing class and it will help you tremendously. (hope i spelled that right hehe) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Herbert Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 ....a lost tear my friends was all what was left. Cool, did i write that. Doubt, if there was the understanding to have the perception to create a lost tear.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert_g.1 Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 Im fully convinced that we are Born with abilities that are unequal among indivuals . But we all can cultivate our abilities through practice and learning to higher levels , persistance pays dividends. I remember in art class in school when very very young , some students where much better than others , and no students had previous experience . So thats a natural ability that we have been born with . I believe the same applies to having an eye. Some will excel quicker than others by having a gift as some may call it. I think of some artists , like Robert Bateman for example , I dont think Id ever catch up to him in his line of work , he sure is gifted as I see it. But then again there are not many at that level , but there are some . Id like to hear their story , we may be surprized ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert_g.1 Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 here is an article on Robert Batman , he talks a bit about his approach to painting , you may enjoy seeing some of his work as well . http://www.robertbateman.ca/art/rbop/rbatemanonpainting.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew_brown3 Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 Hi Dave D, The fact here is that you recognise some of your pictures may not be as 'good' as you want them to be; you are already seeing them as shapes rather than a picture of Aunt Doris sitting in the recliner after eating too much, although that may be a picture as well!It is after all the shapes in the image frame that we look at and make a decision as to whether we think something more than what we photographed is looking back out at us.I don't think a good eye can be learned except in the sense that practice makes perfect, and I do believe that people interested in photography have a desire to create images that mean more than just the silver halides on the paper. Take these photographers as an example only- Lartigue, Atget, Ansel Adams and Cartier Bresson. Ask yourself what you see in just these 4 and in each case it will be something different. Is the eye born or learnt? If you try to copy an image of any of these it will probably not work in the same way as when you look at the images by the photographers themselves, and that is surely how it should be. Everyone has an eye and the secret is to release it! I have been struggling to free mine for nearly 50 years!! And it is a struggle that is nowhere near over as I haven't taken a decent picture yet. Candid shots are just that; you have to be surprised by them and the famous Doisneau shot was posed! I don't think you can go out looking for candids; you maybe will find serendipitous juxtapositions which are not quite the same thing to my way of thinking; in fact it's the timing that makes the candid,isn't it. Photojournalist shots are what exactly? Weegee type arrivals as the body hits the pavement? Photographing the vicar bless the bride? Let's face it- the types of photography you do which you think are no good are probably no good because really you don't want to do them, but maybe just feel that as a 'photographer' you should be doing everything.Atget never( as far as I know!) photographed weddings; he just did what he did to pay the bills and I hope and pray he found peace of mind doing so as his images are essential. As are millions of others by photographers known and unknown. Whether they be good, bad or indifferent is largely irrelevant; the eye is searching and sometimes, maybe, it'll all come together in an image you think of as good. Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jana Posted December 20, 2006 Share Posted December 20, 2006 I think: a passion and permanent learning and practicing is the key ! To look at the world every day as it is a wonder. To make images in Your mind. To read, to enjoy , to travel, to be present in the world. And critiquing other images in the PN is a very good time spent too. cheers Jana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jana Posted December 20, 2006 Share Posted December 20, 2006 Dave, I wanted to have a look at Your work, but there is none on the PN. WHY ?? thanks Jana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_wolf2 Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 Dave, Really admire your honesty and sincerity. A "good eye" is not the outcome of some formula or technique. Of course, basic composition skills are important. But it's more a state of receptivity and responsiveness that comes with letting go of preconceptions and trying to control the process of seeing. It's being alert to the spark of perception that triggers all good art. I second the book "The Tao of Photography" (Shapiro's version -- not Ang's). If you can get past the "Taoist sage" comparisons, it's very good. You might also find a Miksang Photography course valuable (miksang.org). It might be just the right antidote for an engineer's mentality. And remember what Ansel Adams said: "Twelve significant photographs in any one year is a good crop." John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariellen romer Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 Hello, Dave D. From my own experience and by observation, yes an 'eye' can be learned. It can certainly be improved. I feel your analysis that came to synthesis of needing to let go may well be right, because it seems that an emotional response is what makes that eye possible. One thing that does not come out much in the string - and it may be that I have simply missed it - is the courage needed to do what you are trying to do, the vulernability that comes when you put your stuff out there in amongst the experts, the professionals, the clearly gifted, or simply those who seem to have the good eye you look for but you feel, eludes you. So one thing I would say is to build your network of support, those who wish to learn along side you or those with whom you feel comfortable even if their expertise is greater than yours, whose encouragement means something to you, who help to keep you going when you are having one of those 90% days. You've demonstrated courage by simply asking the question, and its a quality that I think we all draw on as we learn and grow. I think passion for what we want to capture, for its story or the beauty of it, is one source of momentum to keep one going through the 90% times. I would also agree with trying different things. Those people I know who have gone through art school are constatly being pushed, pulled or dragged kicking and screaming through different approaches, techniques, applications - and so I suspect they are taught less about specifics and more about exercising their emotional, physical and perception muscles to learn how that feels so they can do the same for themselves after then have left their courses. The techniques are there too but the biggest part of an art education seems to be in perception and understanding, not to mention a lot of practice. Its not simply how to apply paint or chip stone or shoot pics. One learns to be more artisitic same as one learns to be more creative, simply by doing it and examining..then repeating the doing and then the examining. At the end of it all, I think you have to ask yourself, why are you doing this? If its so you can be the biggest, greatest, most famous photographer in the world, then methinks you would be on an ego trip. Nothing wrong with that per se, egos are entitled. But I think also that the passion, humility and courage I mentioned above; the sheer will to persist and a thirst to learn are not things that sit will with an ego in general, and so your motivation for producing something will, IMHO, have an effect on the outcome. Letting go, as you have said, might include letting go of any ego may block a freer flow of response. Be kind to yourself. Rigor and discernment have their place and benefits. Gratuitous, self-inflicted critique violence and condemnation is just that, and not worth a hill of beans in terms of getting or keeping you motivated over the longer term. Fear breeds caution, not creative risk-taking. As a final note, it seems to me that I am at the other end of a spectrum to you. I think I have an untrained but highly passionate eye for color (then texture). My composition skills are kinda sorta and sometimes pure luck, although I try to apply it when I frame a shot. Technically I am all over the floor. Maybe a buddy system would be in order??! I look forward to seeing your scanned and posted pictures here soon. Please keep us posted on your progress and how you feel its going. for you. GREAT question, btw. Best wishes, Mariellen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danblu Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 Yes, need to "just see" not think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liviu faur Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 If 90% of your photos will be great, when you will feel the joy of accomplish something special. For me the feeling of taking photos is like climbing a mountain. It took me half a day to struggle with sharp rocks, heat and exhaust in order to reach the peak. And I stand there, freezing and wondering why it is allow to me to see such beauty. An after 10 minutes of joy, I begin my descend only to live another day of climbing. So I think this is art, and is worth every minutes and photo. Even the bad ones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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