jasper1 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Hey! Keep the W/NW threads to themselves. Keep the hype to itself show me the pixs. Judgement is in the quality of the images, even on a monitor,not in the techy hype stupidity. You dudes should be looking at the quality of images not the hype.But of course most of you are gear and hype stools.Sorry to have to point that out. Go and buy a brochure and be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasper1 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 I'm the best my brochure is the best. Don't want to see any pixs. Brochure wannabes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografz Posted February 2, 2006 Author Share Posted February 2, 2006 Not as hilarious as your non sequitur post there Nels. All I did was make some user observations. If I were to be justifying a purchase or choice, it would be the $12,000. in Canon bodies, and a fortune in Canon L glass I've got. I've used both cameras. Have you? Has Brad? Or is it all based on ... dare I say it ... written hype from the manufacturers? The only prejudice I see here is when someone actually dares to LIKE their Leica product and the pics it produces ... like the respondents are somehow threatened by someone elses' purely subjective preference, and has to be buried in words to discredit that preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 <I>it would be wise to apply the same skepticism to the theoretical hype you are bringing to the discussion concerning Canon. Read their advertising BS concerning their flash systems & wide angle lenses for example</I><P> Huh??? We were discussing the merits of 16 bit capture. How would it be "wise" bringing skepticism with respect to marketing hype on flash systems and wide angle lenses add to the discussion?<P> Weird, someone brings some hard knowledge about imagers, analog-to-digital conversion, thermal management, and manufacturing to the discussion (triggered by Pete's question), and then, another with zero experience on these subjects doesn't like the answer and tries his best to obfuscate the discussion by bringing in flash systems and wide angle lenses. Nice tactic, but hardly transparent. <P> Calm down and have a sip of some of that good tasting bottled water - Now Cholesterol Free! www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasper1 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Show me the pixs not the technical mumbo jumbo.So far the dude with the Fuji is ahead. Yeah, a monitor,so what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nels Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 I knew the question would come up asking me whether I have used the DMR. Would it have made any difference if I had and discarded it in favor of 5D? No, I haven't tried the DMR. And neither have I tried poison. I take the experts' opinions on some issues. Eschew obfuscation! And when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Vivek: <I>Brad, Do you know for sure that Canon/Nikon/Leica dSLRs use or do not Peltier devices for active cooling of the sensors in their high end cameras? Just because Canon is a large company and has over 20,000 patents does not automatically mean that they have done it.</I><P> No, they don't and I never claimed they did. And I never claimed that canon produces better results than the lecia. Reread my post. I was merely substantiating why 16 bit ADC conversion adds no value to imagers working at room temperature. My comment with respect to canon was about their manufacturing and thermal management in general - they have tons more experience which helps to reduce costs on the manufacturing side. Please try and absorb what was stated - rather than trying so hard to find a hole in the argument. <P> For Vivek's benefit:<P> <I>So as in all designs, different techniques are used to "get the heat out." That's a paramount element of good design. I suspect leica's method is no bettor or worse that what canon uses, though I wouldn't be surprised if canon was a bit ahead because they've been doing electronics for decades. But really, all of that is pretty common engineering, differentiated only be cleverness to reduce internal costs.</I><P> Peltier devices do not make heat in a closed box "disappear." They remove heat from one side of the device to the other. That heat is then transferred to a massive radiator and dissipates into the environment, usually aided with a fan. <a href= "http://www.peltier- info.com/diagram1.gif">Here's</a> a pretty picture. www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vivek iyer Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Does anyone have any knowledge of thermal management in a Canon or any other commercial dSLRs (the types used by photographers)? I have seen those liquid helium colled sensors which are sealed from everything from the atmosphere condensing onto the sensor. They are expensive, bulky and are not mobile at all. The Dewars that hold the liquid helium weigh half a ton. Liquid helium needs to be replenished every so many hours and the sensor equilibrated before it can see any action. The supplier of the sensors to Leitz hold several thousend patents on digital imaging as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guy_mancuso Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Man that brought a lot to the party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografz Posted February 2, 2006 Author Share Posted February 2, 2006 The DMR is a nice camera. I like it and the images it produces. In some ways better than my Canons. Unlike you Nels, I don't need an expert to tell me what I like, or don't like. Is that clear enough for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vivek iyer Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Thanks for the clarification, Brad. Just because you ended your post there with Canon's aptents and research capabilities, it kind of gives a different impression. Yes, I am quite aware of what a Peltier device is and how it works. Wouldn't it be lovely if active cooling is incorporated in dSLRs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guy_mancuso Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 So Brad we would have basically cooling vents installed in the body , is this how they try too keep it cool. So would it matter how and where these vents let's call them are installed would provide more or less cooling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasper1 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Peltier devices do not make heat in a closed box "disappear." They remove heat from one side of the device to the other. That heat is then transferred to a massive radiator and dissipates into the environment, usually aided with a fan. Here's a pretty picture. Dude you are so so funny. Out there just beyond your door is a whole wide world. Grab hold of that long dusty nose and drag it out of that big boring stuffy book. Now go and take some pixs. Repeat after me, it does not matter if my camera has a massive radiator, it does not matter. Help is on the way dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vivek iyer Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 "So as in all designs, different techniques are used to "get the heat out." That's a paramount element of good design. I suspect leica's method is no bettor or worse that what canon uses, though I wouldn't be surprised if canon was a bit ahead because they've been doing electronics for decades. But really, all of that is pretty common engineering, differentiated only be cleverness to reduce internal costs." I don't know who typed this. It was not me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Liquid helium is only used in cameras and special detectors for use in the astronomy and defense fields (my background). It's hugely expensive. But it will take you very close to absolute zero - around -273C. There are no dSLRs that use active cooling. Jenoptik, a manufacturer of very expensive MF digial backs, does use two stage active cooling. Their 16 bits of ADC conversion is meaningful. Here's another clue. Kodak, who has been making CCD sensors (both line and 2 dimension varieties) for ages used to make a MF back. It used 12 bit analog-to-digital conversion. Which is good match for sensors operating at room temperture. BTW, Kodak makes the sensor used in the Imacon package for the DMR. www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Guy: no, a large heatsink radiator on the outside. www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vivek iyer Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 It is a bit of a special domain but liquid helium will not (on its own) get you to absolute zero. 4 deg K region is very special and peculiar. Every micro degree chenge there is so weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasper1 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Thanks. I've been worried all day about my digital radiator.At last i can have a peaceful nights rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasper1 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 If a blow on it hard or wave a fan at it do you think it will be alright? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guy_mancuso Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Allright so let me ask this than since it is outside. living in a hot climate like Arizona am i at some disadvantage when using the DMR outside in the heat or is it going to act normal like indoors. reason I ask is do i want to keep it cool as I can when in the weather or will this not matter , sounds like a stupid question but nice to know these things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vivek iyer Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 I doubt you will be able to notice any difference in AZ. Since it is quite dry out there (most of the year) it should be good for your digital. Moisture will do more harm than the few degrees of temperature difference in the normal temperature domain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vivek iyer Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Liquid Helium is not very useful for cooling any active elctronic device as all of them will lose their characteristics around 4 deg K (this how super conductivity was originally discovered and some other interesting electronic applications came much later). Brad, You liquid Helium should have been liquid Nitrogen. There is a very big difference. To all the 'non-geeks' it won't matter much one way or other, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 <I>Brad, You liquid Helium should have been liquid Nitrogen.</I><P> No, liquid helium is a common detector coolant in both <a href="http://cfa- www.harvard.edu/~jhora/mirac/mirac.html"> terestrial </a>and <a href= "http:// www.spaceflightnow.com/delta/d298/030414telescope.html">space</a> telescopes. But this is getting way off-topic. www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nels Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 See what happens when self appointed experts find themselves in a hole, believing it to be a 16-bit hole and continuing to dig in the hope that it will become a 32-bit hole.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vivek iyer Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 It was certainly way out of topic. There are special requirements for everything involved in that temperature regime which can not be translated to 'regular' imaging devices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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