Does "traditional" film contain animal products?

[beepy]

Bear with me, but I'm sort of sitting here with my mouth open.

<p>

I just came across a model portfolio where it is stated:

<blockquote>

I don't shoot for traditional film, because it contains animal products...

</blockquote>

I guess I never sat down and thought about this, but the film itself is often acetate or some

such today? What animal products would there be - in the emulsion? What is the binder

now for the silver etc. compounds?

<p>

This was presented in the context of why they would model only for digital.

<p>

I believe I have now heard it all - but it did spark my curiosity.

[doremus_scudder1]

It does indeed. The gelatin used for the emulsion usually comes from cattle hide pieces and by-products (maybe other sources as well). If you are vegan, you should definitely be shooting digital or some alternative process.

[gaius1]

My guess is that this model doesn't get a lot of work... does he/she refuse to wear makeup too??

[ben conover]

The paper making industry uses animals extensively, from hides, bones, or hoofs. Protein glue called hot melt glue is very strong and has unique properties. The Egyptians uses animal glue 3,000 years ago and it is still a reversiable glue which melts with hot water, even after 3,000 years... amazing. I use rabbit skin glue for violinmaking, great stuff and there is absolutely no replacement glue. I doubt if the paper making indsutry will change anytime soon.

[ben conover]

I guess one could avoid photographic paper and do tiny types, but would it make any difference considering the vast amounts of paper used in the world and all the animal products out there, including make up ? I think not.

[bill_thorlin]

? beepy - it made you take notice so it could be a cunning marketing plan !

 

Plastic shoes - yuck.

[beepy]

<blockquote>

Plastic shoes - yuck.

</blockquote>

Oddly, I've been noticing a lot of plastic clogs lately - they're fashionable.

<p>

The gelatin. I guess I thought it might be something else by now (but "silver gelatin" is fairly

descriptive). <a href="http://home.howstuffworks.com/question557.htm">Jell-o and

Gummy Bears</a> too - I should've quit while I was ahead.

[bill_thorlin]

The wearers obviously have fashion sense. How can anyone put fashion and sense together - they are mutually exclusive surely.

[titrisol]

you can't be serious!

 

all this politically-correct nonsense is going overboard!

 

Yes, film is made with gelatin that comes from the bones, skins and hide of cows, pigs, sheep etc. Those sheep are normally eaten by all those insensitive humans that believe PETA stands for PeopleEatingTastyAnimals

 

I think most people do not realize that digital photography is at least as harmful to the environment than "animal products" in film.

 

I wonder what would happen if the photographer states that he will not take pictures of any model that comes in a limo because it creates pollution, bycicles only :LOL:

[chris_waller]

The binder for the emulsion is gelatin which is rendered from animal cartilage, hoof, horn etc. It is a by-product of the meat-trade so animals are not slaughtered specifically and only for gelatin. Gelatin has unique properties which it why it is used in photography.

 

In terms of environmental impact the chemicals used in the production of electronic components, i.e. microprocessors, CCDs etc. are far more deleterious to the environment. Gelatin on the other hand is a renewable resource. So I find the argument for digital photography to be flawed on environmental grounds.

[eric friedemann]

PeTA, which pretends to protect animals, but has killed thousands of pets:

 

 

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/index.cfm

 

 

Should not be confused with PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals):

 

 

http://mtd.com/tasty/

 

 

Neither organization should be confused with P*E*T*A*B (People for the Ethical Treatment of Alec Baldwin), a hilarious site that is now apparently defunct:

 

 

http://my.voyager.net/~comedywriter/baldwinindex.htm/

[gabe1]

Funny story -- someone once told me that not only does film contain cow byproducts, but that what the cows eat affects the speed of the film. He said that Kodak has a bunch of ranches where the cows eat only mustard greens to make the TMZ emulsion . . . I didn't ask him, but maybe someone here can tell me, if mustard is fast, what would be slow? ;-)

[titrisol]

that is true, and IIRC it was one of the first industrial spionage cases in the late 1800s

 

Some plate maker had a great emulsion, which was faster than anybody elese's.... when a spy went to see what it was not even he knew, all he knew was that he had a new gelatin supplier.

The new gelatin came from some sheep that were eating mustard which provided traces of sulfur to the gelatin and increased the speed of the plates.

 

In the current day and age all those things are pretested and controlled.

[wickedmartini]

"I didn't ask him, but maybe someone here can tell me, if mustard is fast, what would be slow?"

 

 

Ketchup is faster...

[lex_jenkins]

This model reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw years ago:

 

"Every day in every way I'm forced to add yet another dead body to the trunk of my car."

[chris_waller]

It is true that once upon a time the cattle that were used to make photographic gelatin had to have a strictly controlled diet with just the right amount of mustard in with the grass otherwise the film speed went haywire. These days the gelatin is 'cleaned' and then doped with the right amount of sulphur, added as allyl thiourea.

[jtk]

People for Eating Tasty Animals.

[tim hyde]

Film also contributes to global warming, starvation in Africa, and I'm told there is a direct link to Tom DeLay's fundraising operation in Texas.

[rowland_mowrey]

Gelatin is indeed used in making film.

 

At one time, pig gelatin was a major source of gelatin (acid gel) but today, bovine gelatin (limed gel) is the primary source.

 

These gelatins are cleaned of all active components, but at one time the 'raw' gelatin was used. At that time, George Eastman had to halt film production due to film being totally fogged. He hired Dr. C. E. Kenneth Mees to do some research into the problem, and they discovered that the sulfur groups introduced into gelatins by cows eating mustard grasses were the root of the problem.

 

Mees went on to found the research labs at EK and author a series of books on photography. The discovery led to the initial use of allyl thiourea and some other sulfur containing amino acids, but that has been long abandoned in favor of either sodium thiocyanate or sodium thiosulfate. Those are the more common choices in this century. Allyl thiourea was abandoned over 50 years ago in most products AFAIK.

 

I have seen and read George Eastmans famous internal letter in which he asks that 'all employees pray for the emulsion that it turn out well'.

 

That is a paraphrase of what I remember, taken from the letter I saw many years ago.

 

Ron Mowrey

[gabe1]

Wow, and I thought the guy who told me that story was full of it. Now I know to file it under "strange but true."

[troyammons]

Any mad Cow film out there ??

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

I never eat film - it tastes bad and it contains cattle.

 

Robert

[rowland_mowrey]

Troy;

 

No Mad Cow film out there AFAIK, but I've known a few emulsion makers who seemed to be barking mad. So, maybe.....

 

Well, I don't want to speculate.

 

Just kidding. I thought that was a good comment.

 

Ron Mowrey

[beepy]

The responses were a lot more informative than I expected.

<p>

As a final comment, this thread certainly does approach the "Film is dead" argument from the

point of view of dead cows. :-)

[kelly_flanigan1]

With single sided 5 1/4 and 8 inch floppy drives; the top non functional head has a button of rabbit hair; installed with the hair grain tangential to the disc rotation. With a squeaky 8 inch floppy and sometimes a 8 or 14 inch disc hdas; the carrage was often desqueaked with a whale oil.