prints with Velvia like colors

[forrest_andrew]

How do I get colors prints with Velvia like colors? I desire high

quality 4x6 prints for album storage, with the odd enlargement to

8x12. The way I see it there are two basic (non-digital) options:

 

1.shoot Velvia and have select slides scanned and prints made.

 

If this is the case, what is the best way to have this done on a

relatively regular basis? (ie. considering ease and cost) Information

specific to Canada (or better yet, Alberta) would be great?

 

2.shoot high saturation print film.

 

If this is the case, what print film would produce the most Velvia

like results?

 

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

 

Andrew Forrest

 

Alberta, Canada

[Ed_Ingold]

"shoot Velvia and have select slides scanned and prints made"

 

This is a non-digital option? AFIK, all minilab processing uses digital printing as well.

 

No negative film has the saturation and contrast of Velvia. Some, like 160C is more contrasty than others, but it's a matter of degree rather than kind. The printing process is where it's done. The minilab operator can easily pump up the saturation and constrast if you ask (most do it without being asked). You do not have any options of this sort with conventional color printing.

 

In the end, the dynamic output range of a print is intrinsically less than that of Velvia.

[forrest_andrew]

Sorry. By non-digital I meant not going the digital camera and PS route. I fully understand that scanning slides is a digital process. Thanks.

[nikos peri]

Find the few labs left that still offer Cibachrome printing.

[john_shriver]

Fuji Crystal Archive paper has the largest color gamut of the RA-4 print papers, so you would want that as your output media. The problem is that the Fuji Frontier minilabs work in sRGB color space, which isn't capable of using the full gamut. You would need to find a pro lab using Crystal Archive.

 

For films to go with it, I've had experience with Fuji NPZ (now 800Z). It has moderately enhanced color saturation, although the colors remain realistic looking, which isn't the Velvia 50 look. Kodak's 400 Ultra Color has strong color saturation as well, maybe stronger than NPZ, yet retains acceptable flesh tones.

 

Or, to be cynical, go to a drug store with a giant banner hanging on the wall saying "Now, brighter colors!". Yes, I really saw that at a Walgreens. Means that they must have had the saturation control on their Frontier turned all the way up to 11!

[bueh]

<blockquote><i>2.shoot high saturation print film.

<br>If this is the case, what print film would produce the most Velvia like results?</i></blockquote>

Kodak EPP @ ISO 100, cross-processed in C-41 with 1/3 stop push, when printed remind the operator to not color-correct the prints. Colors and contrast will be greatly exaggerated, and yes, some color shifts will occur.

[r.t. dowling]

I hate to say it, but Fuji Superia 100 (*not* Superia-Reala), printed on a Fuji Frontier, might be a very simple, very affordable, and very effective way to get what you're looking for. It's contrasty, has hyper saturation, and the Frontier will magnify those traits. It won't look exactly like Velvia, but it's certainly worth trying. You can also ask the Frontier operator to jack up the contrast and saturation until you get the effect you're looking for.

 

Agfa Ultra 100 is also worth trying, but there may not be any point in bothering because it has either been discontinued or will be discontinued very soon, and it was difficult to find even when Agfa wasn't on the brink of death.

[bill_tuthill]

It can't be done: there is no print film equivalent of Velvia.

Your best alternative is to scan Velvia and send 1800x1200 pixel

images to a Frontier lab (3600x2400 for 8x12 prints). If you don't

have a scanner, I recommend Kodak Ultracolor 400, which prints

oversaturated on a Frontier. Frontiers are usually loaded with

Fuji Crystal Archive paper; see John Shriver's post.

[scott_eaton]

You guys have missed the question entirely.<P>

 

What Andrew is likely asking is what color neg film produces prints that look like Velvia slides. The answer, as we've been asked this question a billion times, is 'none', because a reflective print cannot match the intensity range of a slide sitting a light table. Doesn't matter what film you use to make the print. I used to take 6mp dLSR capture and out-put those images onto 4x5 slide film via digital film recorders, and they looked *better* than 35mm Velvia slides by a significant degree.

 

<P> <I>shoot high saturation print film</i><P>Contrary to the mis-informed remarks above, there is <i>no</i> such thing as a high saturation print film becaus print film is technologically limited in providing high density colors. Print films that the peanut gallery here claim are 'high saturation' are nothing more than higher contrast versions of more conventional emulsions. Kodak Portra VC is a notorious example given it's nothing more than a higher contrast 'wedding film' version of Portra NC that Kodak markets as 'high saturation' when in fact it's been proven not the case. Agfa Ultra 100 is another example. All contrast - crappy saturation and distorted colors. Slide film is the film route you want to go if you want sparkling color saturation with good tonal quality, but the price paid is getting those slides made into quality prints.<P>The most practical route to getting high saturation and quality prints from slides is to get your own slide scanner and scan them yourself. You can then submit those files to be printed at the local digital Frontier lab, and the results will be far better at lower cost than any other path.<P>Most of your digital mini-labs like the Frontier shops above can make direct scans from slides and print them, which you can try with your Velvia slides, but the results won't be as good if you do your own scanning given the digital mini-labs just aren't designed to know how to get proper scans from slides like thy are prints from negs.<P>Which leaves shooting spicier print films like Fuji's and having them Frontier printed, which is likely your best option until you start getting quality scans made of your slides.<P>Feel free to have optical prints like Cibachromes made of your slides, but you'll be dissapointed at the blown out contrast and colors.

 

 

If you want vibrant, high saturation prints that don't look like garbage, then avoid any thought of getting conventional optical Cibachrome prints from Velvia becuase you'll be disgusted at the blown out colors and contrast.

[scott_eaton]

RE: cross processing.

 

I've cross processed and scanned a lot of E-6 film, and while it's a cool effect for commercial modeling and wacky pictorial essays that look like late night MTV videos, the process tends to produce washed out negs with little middle detail.

[roger_smith4]

"Contrary to the mis-informed remarks above, there is no such thing as a high saturation print film becaus print film is technologically limited in providing high density colors."

 

I thought I read that color saturation was a combination of contrast and color purity?

[bueh]

<blockquote><i>RE: cross processing.

<BR>

I've cross processed and scanned a lot of E-6 film, and while it's a cool effect for commercial modeling and wacky pictorial essays that look like late night MTV videos, the process tends to produce washed out negs with little middle detail.</i></blockquote>

True, but the colors and especially the blacks look a lot like the velvelty deep blacks of Velvia. And like that slide film CP'd EPP must be exposed very accurately lest you lose your highlight or shadow details. Of course it is very differently than Velvia, but if you are after contrast and colors you will get "better" results with CP'd slide film than with regular color negative film, in my humble opinion (as you said, standard C-41 films are not very contrasty under normal lighting).

[scott_eaton]

Blacks with slide film are a function of Dmax. Blacks with color neg films, even cross processed E-6, are a function of Dmin. The two can't be anything alike.

 

Cross processing simply forces the dyes in slide film to saturate to maximum levels with less exposure, which produces strange crossover effects, high contrast and little mid tone detil. Again, it looks cool with some subjects, but isn't a solution for wanting a high saturation color neg film.

 

The myth that you need high contrast with high saturation is a product of Kodak's poor dye-coupler engineering. Hence, Kodak could never deliver a new film with more saturation without increasing pictorial contrast (cough UC-100 cough), which isn't a problem with Fuji materials. Aside from that wretched E100VS stuff, I personally think Fuji Astia has better saturation than any Kodak slide film. Strong colors don't block up as badly, that's for sure.

 

If you look at Agfa Ultra 100 shots you'll notice the film just tends to ignore subtle shades of color in expense for making everything look garish. Saturated colors in Ultra 100 aren't that good anyways- deep reds either shift magenta or orange, and the film looks bad on a Fuji Frontier anyways.

[dr._nick_lambert]

I'm new to this site, but am most impressed. I've been trying to get Agfa Ultra 100 to test for the last month, but it seems to have run out in Britain. Even in Germany I can't find it. Does anyone know if stocks remain somewhere?

[hjoseph7]

I have seen allot of Velvia prints and theys seem like somebody left them in the oven too long. Pastel Colors ugh. I much rather prefer a natural looking print, the kind you get with Ektachrome.

[bernhard]

Scott,

 

How about paper choice?

 

Wouldn't Kodak metallic or the equivalent Fuji stuff help to get prints that look more saturated?

[bill_tuthill]

Concerning availability of Agfa Ultra 100, <A HREF="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00Ekw3&tag=">see

this thread</A>.

Ultra from a Frontier on CA paper looks awful IMO.<P>

Metallic paper doesn't enhance saturation, but it creates a nice effect.

[theaudiodoc]

Hi Andrew,

 

This is one of many interesting threads in a fascinating forum, wouldn't you agree? As you can see your question has sparked many passionate responses/opinions from forum members. Opinions that have formed over years of experimenting with many different film emulsions -- trying to find those that best reproduce the vision that he/she is trying to communicate. Isn't it great that we still have many film choices -- minus one now with Agfa's demise -- unfortuneatly, I'm sure that other's will go the way of Agfa eventually.

My opinion: Option #1 -- shoot Velvia and scan. Don't know about Alberta, but here in Salt Lake I have Borg Andersen process my film and scan it to Picture CD with index. These scans work well for me as proofs and 4X6 prints. The few shots that I really like, I scan as 48 bit Tiffs with my KM Scan Elite 5400 II which can be corrected if necessary and lab or inkjet printed.

In the golden days of film the advise, as you know was, shoot color negative film if your objective is to make prints. So if I were to chose Option #2 I personally would chose UC-100 or UC400 (I can here Scott coughing)!

Velvia is without doubt the most popular film for landscape photography, but of course, it is less suitable if one's photos includes people. In that case I would choose Provia 100F or Kodak E100G (I hear gagging)!

 

 

Robert

[average amateur]

You can try to get your hands on some Agfa Ultra, which is my only suggestion for anything that comes close. It saturates colors to the extreme, even to the point of shifting (turns lots of blues into purples), but it's the only thing outside of Velvia and photoshop that will really get those colors to pop out right at you.

 

The problem is that it's all gone as far as I can tell. I worked through my local lab in town (they posted an ad on a commercial film buyers group) and got my hands on 25 last rolls before they were gone for good. With the way that the negative film industry is going, if you find a film you like, buy the hell out of it and throw it in the freezer while it's still in stock.

[forrest_andrew]

thanks to all for your input. over the next little while i think i'll dabble in some of the recommended suggestions. i've got a roll of Agfa Ultra waiting to be used anyway. but, for the most part, i think i'll be shooting Velvia. when you think about it, how better to get 'Velvia looking' prints other than printing from Velvia?? i am, however, intrigued by Scott's recommendation of scanning the slides myself.

Scott, you say 'the results won't be as good if you do your own scanning given the digital mini-labs just aren't designed to know how to get proper scans from slides like thy are prints from negs'. Now i'm no expert, so I'm a bit confused as to how my own scanning would result in better prints compared to the local lab?? Further, what can I expect to shell out for a scanner that'll produce 'good' results? $500, more, less??

thanks again to all. these forums always prove to be such a valuable source of info.

 

Andrew

[theaudiodoc]

Andrew,

 

The Nikon Coolscan V is $550 and the Konica Minolta Dimage Scan Elite 5400 II is $570 at B&H Photo. Both should give you excellent results. I've been extremely satisfied with my 5400 II. I had no previous experience with film scanners. Started off playing with the Easy Scan Utility and progressed from there. Have done a lot of reading. There are many great how-to recourses on the internet (you'll find many good tips here on photo.net)and in your local book store. Check Shutterbug's site. David Brooks has written a lot about scanning, digital processing, workflow etc.

By the way you may hear some grumblings from a few that say that they have had trouble with their Konical Minolta scanners. Though I have not had any problems I can see where if one was too forceful with loading the film trays they could possibly jam. The Nikon may be somewhat more durable in that regard, but the Minolta's resolution is higher.

In my previous post I mentioned that I have my film processed at Borg Anderson (a pro lab here in SLC). The cost for processing C41 with Picture CD is $9.00. The quality is excellent and it saves my a lot of time scanning. The scans are plenty good for mini-lab prints and for proofing, e-mail etc. Gives me a good idea which ones I'd like to scan at higher res. Slide processing is $14.00 with CD.

Haven't tried Agfa Ultra. I'll have to check with German family and friends in Heidelberg if they can still get it. Haven't found any here.

 

Robert