A question regarding the forum maintainer's duties.

[ed b.]

Not too long ago I was accused of censorship for deleting a post, and today I've been accused (in private correspondence) of being the humor police for this forum. I admit to having little tolerance for people who are uncivil and/or ungracious. In the South we learn at an early age to display some manners, else someone is liable to shorten our lives drastically.

 

<p>

 

My question is this: Would everyone prefer that I take a hands-off approach and let people say whatever they wish? On the one hand, it would be a lot easier for me--I certainly don't need the abuse I receive for trying to keep people civil. On the other hand, I fear that a totally unbridled forum would quickly degenerate into a place where many would not feel welcome or would simply be uninterested in participating.

 

<p>

 

This is your forum--tell me how you would like it to work.

[sal_santamaura]

First Ed, thanks for doing this usually thankless *volunteer* work.

I'm sure most folks appreciate it as much as I do. Complaining

majorities usually drown out silent majorities.

 

<p>

 

Please do not take a hands off approach. You've been striking a fine

balance. To repeat what I said in that recent thread, this isn't

government, and censorship is perfectly acceptable in such a

privately owned forum.

 

<p>

 

Letting a forum run unmoderated (or close to it) would be like having

a call-in radio show without a screener. It's an ugly situation. If

you feel that one person's humor is most people's offensiveness,

delete at will! Don't ever develop a tolerance for lack of civility,

and shrug off any abusive correspondence. Then simply delete that

too!

 

<p>

 

Thanks again Ed.

[david_parmet1]

Ed,

 

<p>

 

I didn't find the comment in question - regarding the grainy

negatives - very funny. I found it obnoxious and I'm from New

York where 'F**k you' is considered a formal greeting.

 

<p>

 

Please keep doing what you are doing. We all know it's a

thankless task (thank you thank you) but the alternative - an

unmoderated free-for-all - is too ugly to contemplate.

[silverhalide1949]

Don't change a thing. You are doing an excellent job & it is appreciated.

[james_steele1]

Ed,

Thanks for the great job you are doing. Keep doing what you are

doing. Civility and courtesy are always appreciated.

[gary_calverase]

Ed, Thank you for your tireless work on this forum and please don't

change your current approach. I visit this forum regularly for just

what it is - the best spot on the web for discussion of our passion -

B&W photography. Everytime I visit, I can know it's just what I

want - a respite from the daily grind - and the ongoing civility

increases that feeling. The patience, tolerance and thoughtful

responses by everyone, even to what appear as just plain dumb

questions, always brings a smile. If I want rude, I only need walk

down the street or visit some other forum. Keep up the excellent

work and thanks again.

[dean_lastoria]

I would think if you more as an Editor, than a censor. The archive is

an anthology, and should be purged of trivia in any form. If you cut

something, we can alway ask again.

 

<p>

 

I'd like to also thank you, Mr. Editor, for this forum.

Dean

[michael_feldman1]

Since the comments made by Ed pertain to specifically me, I would

like to respond. Ed accused me in a personal email of making an ill-

mannered comment that I thought was pretty humorous and well

disserved because of the lack of information provided by the

questioner. But we all have different senses of humor, and I asked

Ed for a little tolerance on that subject.

 

<p>

 

What I also said in my email response to Ed is that "I think that you

[Ed] should spend more time getting people to read the archives

before asking redundant questions. And furthermore, there is nothing

more ill-mannered, un-courteous, and uncivil than someone asking a

question without bothering to provide even the most basic information

about their current technique that is necessary for someone to

accurately diagnose the problem."

 

<p>

 

It seems to me that we are answering the same questions over and over

again, and usually as not as well as we do the first time because we

get tired of repeating ourselves. One of the things that makes this

forum unique from rec.photo.darkroom (in fact the only thing that

makes it unique) is the archives. Using the archives, we as as the

photography community can build upon our knowledge and provide

newcomers to photography a place to get comprehensive answers to

questions. But for some reason we seem to be failing in this regard,

because we get the same questions over and over again every single

week.

 

<p>

 

The other issue I have with the moderator is that if someone wants to

ask a question (and I welcome beginners or anyone who has questions

or problems), they need make a reasonable effort (not expecting

perfection here) to give us enough information to help us adequately

resolve their problem. If they don't do that, then I believe that I

have every right to complain, even if the complaints include

sarcasm. And further, I would ask the moderator to assist in this

effort and send personal emails to persons who don't provide enough

information in their questions, to ask them to restate the question

and provide the necessary information. For me. this would be more

useful than acting as a censor for comments that the moderator thinks

are rude, etc., and would show a genuine interest in trying to

actually help those who have problems, instead of just trying to be

a "good ol boy."

 

<p>

 

And Ed, this has nothing to do with where you are from. I was born

and raised in Texas. But I genuinely care about the problems that

people ask, and if they are too careless or lazy to provide the

necessary information for someone to respond with a reasonable

answer, then I think I should be free to express my indignation.

[howard_dvorin]

Ed,

You are doing a fine job on this forum. I find it enjoyable and

educational. There is no need for sarcasm or profanity here. The

web is a place where people come form all different places and

backgounds and meet and mix. theyshould feel welcome and safe.

Howard Dvorin

Mt. Laurel ,NJ

USA

[david_parmet1]

Michael:

 

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Here is what Gabe asked:

 

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"I developed two rolls of HP5 today with HC110 developer using

dilution B. I developed according to recommended times,

temperature and agitation. Both rolls done in separate tanks

both came out overly grainy and I have no idea what happened.

The chemicals were mixed today as well."

 

<p>

 

What other information do you need? What else did you need to

know to at least offer an opinion? If the question is beneath you,

as it seems to be considering your response, than ignore it. I fail

to see the 'humor' in your initial response and I frankly think you

are showing an amazing amount of chutzpah (New York term

there) in your subsequent responses.

 

<p>

 

Gabe asked a legitimate question; your attempts to turn this

around and make him look like the jerk is pretty lame IMHO.

 

<p>

 

The best censor we have here is to ignore questions from

posters who we believe aren't doing their homework -- and I

don't believe Gabe's post falls into this category at all. It's not our

job to ridicule newbies for what we perceive as lame or

uniformed questions. We can ignore them.

[alec1]

Michael, I agree 100%. I don't view this forum as a source for

students to complete requirements w/o research. I'm all for helping

newcomers over issues they can't resolve, but the question "how do I

develop B&W film" is NOT such an issue. I have and will remain free

to add caustic comments in such cases where I deem it appropriate.

Civility has nothing to do with it. If you show up here, asking for

opinions, you must be ready to hear them.

 

<p>

 

Again, the life blood of this hobby is new members, buying products

so manufacturers will continue to make them, and I personally have no

intention of dissuading any legitimate student of the craft from

learning. But, except for hardcore bad language, I'm for no

interference.

[michael_feldman1]

David, Gabe may have a legitimate problem, but he did not ask a

legitimate question.

 

<p>

 

What we don't know is: has he ever developed any HP5 film with

acceptable grain? Has he ever seen someone else's HP5 negative with

acceptable grain? Has he compared the grain of HP5 to other films.

Does he know that HP5 is one of the grainiest films around?

 

<p>

 

What developer did he use? What other chemicals did he use? What

temperature did he develop at?

 

<p>

 

BTW, yesterday I sent Gabe a personal email with a recommendation to

solve his "grain" problem, which is lot more than the most of you

have done, because I don't think most of you actually give a damn

about Gabe or his problem, you just want to wallow in your self-

righteous notions about civility.

[david_parmet1]

Michael,

 

<p>

 

Did you ask Gabe any of those questions prior to suggesting he

was an idiot in a public forum or did you do it after you were

called on your behavior just to make yourself feel better?

 

<p>

 

Considering your notions of civility -- at least what you've shown

in this forum -- I'll take my 'self-rightous notions' any day.

 

<p>

 

Have a nice day and welcome to my 'ignore' file.

[michael_feldman1]

David, I did not suggest that Gabe was an idiot. I suggested two

things:

 

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First, it makes perfect sense to me that if one person is getting too

much grain and another not enough grain, then maybe an exchange of

ideas between the two would be fruitful. I don�t believe that this

comment is uncivil, and certainly should not be censored.

 

<p>

 

Second, that I am tired of hearing about the exact same problems week

after week; and that I would like to see more use of the archives by

persons asking questions so that they can receive more comprehensive

and timelier answers to their questions. And while I don�t really

know if the moderator �signed up� for the responsibility to encourage

people to use the archives, if the moderator has time to complain

about my rather tame posts, he should also have time to make people

aware of the archives when appropriate.

[sal_santamaura]

First, there was a typo in my initial response. Should have

said "Complaining *minorities* usually drown out silent majorities."

 

<p>

 

Second, the subject of referring to archives. I typically ignore oft-

repeated questions, unless others begin to respond, providing

opinions with which I disagree. Then there is usually a compulsion

to post what I've said earlier so the archives remain balanced.

 

<p>

 

Expecting the moderator to contact everyone who posts redundant

questions seems a bit much. Perhaps a large, bold admonition against

asking before checking archives could be added to the page which

comes up when posting a new question. That and everyone's

willingness to ignore violators might be sufficient to keep these

forums from resembling chat rooms.

[michael_feldman1]

Sal, I agree that it may be unreasonable to put the burden on the

moderator to remind every person that they should look at the

archives when a redundant question is asked. But I am amazed that the

moderator would take the time to chastise my lame comments, and never

once (that I am aware of) make someone aware that the question asked

was redundant, and was thoroughly answered in the archives; or that

it is inconsiderate to ask for help and then not provide even the

basic details necessary to adequately answer the question.

[conrad_hoffman]

I'm sure many people remember the old Photoshopper forum, and we

certainly don't want to degenerate to that! Ed does a fine job and

has my thanks. I like this board because of the caliber of people who

frequent it and the generally good natured responses. I remember the

HP5 question and remember thinking hmmm, not really enough info, I'll

pass. Many of us forget that it's hard to ask a really good question

when you don't know the answer. If the person knew enough to give all

the technical data, he'd probably already know the answer and

wouldn't have posted. If the question "ages" a bit with no responses,

then I might offer some hints and ask for more info. I always fight

the urge to be caustic and sarcastic since (in a world-wide

community) English might not be the posters first language and their

age and background are unknown. It's safer to just be direct.

[michael_feldman1]

I thought my answer was very direct. The thread regarding "How do I

get grainy pictures?" that I recommended contains an excellent

discussion of the following: the effect of different developers on

grain, the effective of development temperature on grain, the effect

of sudden changes in temperature on grain, the effect of development

time on grain, the effect of exposure on grain, and a discussion of

the general graininess of various different films. So in reality, I

believe that my answer was actually pretty good and straightforward

advice.

[xx]

I'm just glad its not me in the middle of this one :)

 

<p>

 

Ed you have been more than fair with me, I think you do a fine job.

[john_hicks]

Continue moderating exactly as you have been. You're doing a good job.

[melvin_bramley]

I have not read the post to which all the fuss is about. However I do

believe that nothing needs to change on this forum. It is well

maintained, has good questions & responses.

 

On occasion many of us go 'brain dead' & cannot see the wood for the

trees!! I am as guilty of that as anyone else. Please be tolerant of

'silly questions'. A little helping hand may help someone grasp a

subject that they are having a problem with. From a response the veil

may be lifted; a 's!!t I should have known that' may be uttered & an

enlightened fellow photographer will go forward enjoying the craft. We are not all brain surgeons or master craftsmen & have other thing on our minds besides photography. Nowadays photo clubs seem few & far

between so it is difficult to ask casual questions & get a casual

response. We have therefore to rely on the biggest photo club around

(LUSENET) to offer our silly & not so silly questions.

[bong]

Ed, first I'd like to thank you for doing a fine job. Trust your

instincts, it has served you well.

[jim_chinn1]

I want to first thank you for all your efforts maintianing the forum.

And I don't think you should change your approach. When i first

started reading these forums I spent a great deal of time reading

through all the archives because of the gold mine of information

there. I have been involved in photography for 17 years and I hope

that the context of any question i ask is unique and relevant.

However, for many newcomers to photography these forums are the only

resource to answer confusing issues. A question that seems painfully

obvious to me may be totally bewildering to a beginner. So I think

we need to have some patience and do one of three things. First we

could answer the question. Second, perhaps the moderator could

provide a stock answer explaining the archives. It may seem obvious

but newbies may not realize it for the resource it is. Third,

instead of being rude, just don't reply to the post.

 

<p>

 

On another thought, I do find it frustrating when someone will post

questions that they should answer themselves through testing and

experimentation. If someone asks me what is the best developer to

use with a particular film, I tell them to buy different developers

and test the film with each one. What is acceptable for me probably

is not for many others.

[jimrock]

Ed,

 

<p>

 

You do a great job. I have read the thread in question, but did not

read the item that was deleted. I assume you used your judgement as

the moderator in order to keep this forum civil. I sure you get

criticism anytime you do this, but that is why you get paid the big

bucks as the moderator. I can't imagine how the item you deleted

affects the "integrity" of this forum.

 

<p>

 

I consider myself an serious amatuer photographer. I have just set

up my own darkroom after using community facilities, and have enjoyed

experimenting with my new setup. During this process, and in the

last four years during which I have gotten into photography, I am

sure I have asked a lot of questions that seemed stupid to others

(and which now would even seem stupid to me). But the graciousness

of others, including people in this forum, in sharing their

experiences and information with me in an understandable way has made

me a much better photographer and printer. I do usually seach books,

the web and other information first (most of my initial knowledge

came from trial and error and books rather than someone telling me

what I needed to know). But it is amazing how much confusing and

contradictory information is out there. So it is nice to have a

forum like this where we can draw on the experience of others to

address direct and specific questions (even if sometimes answers here

are inconsistent or contradictory).

 

<p>

 

Yes, some of the postings are overly simple and perhaps

inappropriate. But I would hate to have a situation where I or

anyone else feels uncomfortable asking a questions for fear of being

called or insinuated to be a moron. If someone doesn't like a

question, don't post a response. Or be a little more civil in saying

that the person should do a little basic homework. Frankly, when I

see a stupid question and an overly harsh response, the responder is

usually the one who looks more foolish.

 

<p>

 

I do have one specific suggestion. Above "New Questions," would it

be possible to post a link called something like "How To Use

Archives" that explains the wealth of information that can be

obtained from this exercise? I know that I did not appreciate this

feature the first few times I visited these forums.

[richard_ilomaki]

Ed:

 

<p>

 

Please keep your hand on the helm. Your efforts are appreciated.

 

Thanks for helping buck the trend away from civility. Personal

sarcasm has no place in a forum such as this. Where in the

guiddelines for using this forum are there minimum requirements for

technical competancy or experience.

 

<p>

 

 

If we don't watch out, "Fyou"" will indeed become a formal greeting.

Here in Singapore we get laughed at for banning chewing gum,

graffitti and spitting, but it does make a difference.

 

<p>

 

Thank you sir.