Classic cameras approach: some suggestions needed.

[nuno_campos1]

Hi,

 

I have started this year to develop and to print my own photos and I bought a

used 6x6 enlarger because it was cheap but I have 35mm cameras.

 

Right now, I would like to try medium format but I in a inexpensive way. From

what I read, there are few options: a toy camera like the Holga, the Lubitel

or a used TLR/folder that I could clean.

 

I am bent to this last option, but I am not sure if I should buy a folding or

a TLR. The first fits in a pocket but maybe a TLR would be a better performer,

and easier to find in better condition.

 

If that helps, I do normally street, and some urban landscapes and portraits.

Could you give me some recommendations, like a particular camera suggestion,

or aspects to look for to see if the camera is in good condition?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Best regards and sorry something about the English,

 

Nuno Campos.

[ben conover]

Hi Nuno, you could get a good Rolleicord 5 with close up lenses, filters, and a bag, all for about $200.

 

Cheers.

[john_stafford2]

I'd say No to the folder because the only good folder (IMHO) is the post-war Zeiss Ikonta and it is hugely expensive.

 

I have three Zeiss Super Ikontas (in any event, the Ikontas with rangefinders), one in each format. None are particularly sharp.

 

But make up your own mind. Below is a sample from a 6x9 Super Ikonta folder that anyone would call near mint condition.

 

Yeah, the camera was tilted. I hate it when that happens.

 

Humbly,

John

[randall ellis]

Something you should keep in mind is that folders and TLRs typicaly do not allow for the use of different lenses, although the Mamiya C series TLRs do (but lenses are expensive). You should be able to find a nice Yahsica TLR (D, 12, 124, 124G) for under $100 in decent shape, or you could get a nice SLR body and an 80mm lens to start with. I've seen MF SLRs go for under $150 recently, ready to shoot. The Mamiya M645 series is inexpensive, offers a nice selection of lenses and accesories, doesn't break the bank, and does a nice job for a starter MF camera.

 

If you are thinking of doing a CLA on an older folder or TLR, you should be ready to buy a couple because unless you are used to working on shutters, you're going to make some mistakes in the learning process. Most of these have gummned up slow speed escapements that will need attention, and some have fast speeds that are off by a fair amount. Repair guides are available for some shutters, but are harder to find for others. The going rate on a CLA for a Yahsica TLR is $150, or at least the last time I checked it was - part extra.

 

Again, I would consider getting an SLR from somewhere reliable like KEH. You can do OK on ebay and you can get burned. I've found some good deals there, but I also find that in many cases I could have skipped the hassles by going with a used vendor that offers returns over an ebay seller who may be trying to move a broken camera that they bought on ebay two weeks before.

 

At any rate, the shutter is the #1 thing to look into, then the lens condition. Light leaks can easily be fixed yourself, as can worn/torn/missing leather parts. You shoudl be aware that missing leather can often mean that someone has been tinkering inside so use your best judgement. Good luck, and don't be scared off by comments like mine. Oh, and have fun!

 

- Randy

[dave_powell2]

Hi Nuno,

 

Most of the "legendary" folders, like the Ikontas and the Bessas are in such demand that they command premium prices. At a lower price-point, you can find still-high-quality and popular folders like the Voigtlander Perkeo, Agfa Record, Ross Ensign Xpress, Ansco Titan, and Agfa Ventura 66.

 

But if you are a natural tinkerer, you may consider joining the many happy users of well-made 620 folders, such as Kodak's superb Monitor 620 (with f/4.5 Anastigmat Special lens), or even some models of Kodak's Tourist (the Anaster-lensed Tourist is highly sought-after, if you can find one whose shutter still works at its top 1/800 speed). To use 120 film in them, you may need to do some Dremmel work or respool 120 film onto 620 reels...but that's some folks' cup o' tea!

 

Also, with any folding camera, you will tend to pay more for the manufacturer's higher-end models that have an integral linked rangefinder. --Dave

[alan c.]

budget TLR should be under $150 in perfectly good condition:

 

Minolta AUTOCORDS -- various models

Yashica -- various models, 124G being the last

Czech FLEXARET -- VI and VII are last models

ROLLEICORDS -- cheaper cousins of rolleiflexes

 

Any of the above TLR will perform very well.

 

for $400 you could get a decent Rolleiflex if you look carefully.

 

PENTACON 6, Exacta 66, Kiev 60 all share lens mount and are quite cheap. optics

superb but controls a bit clunky IMHO. lots of support online. camera + standard lens

should be $200.

 

Folding FUJI 645 camera was most modern folder made (1980s), still sells for $500+.

 

Russian ISKRA 6x6 folder is copy of Zeiss Super Ikonta. Best Russian folder.

 

Voigtlander PERKEO II 6x6 folder goes for $200+ but has a great reputation.

[Jochen_S]

Get Mamiyas; they are woth their bulk and price. - To me anything with a fixed lens is too limiting, although I did and would go for a camera with a portrait lens and nothing else.

 

Pentacon Six with 120 or maybe 180mm are nice to have too.

[Andrew in Austin]

Good advice so far, especially with regards to buying from KEH.

 

I'm a folder person. Mainly because I like the eye level viewing and you retain normal left to right image in the viewfinder, which is brighter than the imaga on most TLR screens. Plus, they fit into a smaller camera bag. The downside is nearly all folders need some work done to them to bring them up to spec.

 

Best classic folder in my opinion - the Iskra - if bought from a reputable dealer such as fedka.com. You may pay more, but you definitely have the right to return the camera for a refund. The Iskra uses unit focusing by moving the lens as group forward and backward, much like a TLR - but with a helical.

 

My Ansco Super Speedex which was the Agfa Super Isolette rebranded for the US is the basis for the Iskra. The coupled rangefinder and film winding which stops automatically at the next frame makes for a pleasant shooting experience.

 

 

TLR's are an acquired taste. I have two. The TLR's large viewfinder image makes for easier composition and lessens the likelyhood of tilting the camera provide that the screen has a grid. Folders by comparison have squinty viewfinders. Most TLR's feature a winder that automatically stops the frame at the next frame and a self cocking shutter. On folders and some TLR's the photographer must cock the shutter before each exposure. TLR's offer much more bang for the buck even if right is left when looking down into the viewfinder.

 

I've settled into shooting with a Minolta Autocord for TLR work. I like the camera. I'm trying to train my brain to shoot with a Rolleiflex 2.8C.

 

The Minolta Autocord is midway between a Rolleicord and a Rolleiflex, but soooooo much more affordable than the big lens Rolleiflex.

 

The recommendation for medium format SLR's is timely. Prices for used gear have never been this low, but the camera bag definitely grows large with one and an extra lens.

[Brian]

Andrew's point is worth repeating - TLRs have big, clear viewfinders (except the view is laterally reversed) whereas any folder I've ever held has a tiny little viewfinder. The point about condition is valid too: TLRs probably last better than folders.

[jon_b.1]

Yashica TLRs are very reasonable and take great pictures. I have a Yashica A and a Yashicamat, each cost about $50. The Yashica A uses the "red window" system for film advance, which is much more dependable than the crank system. The cranks can jam, and if the spacing goes off you will either get overlapping pictures, or lose some of your last shot. I personally like the lens better on the Yashica A vs the Yashicamat, but I am sure I would be in the minority on that. If you go with a folder, don't buy it sight-unseen uless you know you can return it...they very often have leaky bellows. The Agfa Isolette is a nice 6X6 folder, and it will fit in your pocket.

[john carter]

Don't worry about your English. I have a Mexican friend that I write to often in my weak Spanish. He never says a word that is negative. And I am sure that nobody on PHOTO.NET would either. That means nobody cares. Get a Rolleicord like Ben suggested.

[minhnguyen9113]

How about a Koni-Omega which cost $100.00 with 90mm lens

[ben conover]

Nuno, about the Koni-Omega, seems like a very cool camera, and one that I had overlooked. Note that Koni has interchangable lenses and the ideal 6x7 format, the optics are apparently stellar, plus it's well made and very cheap!

 

I will be buying one soon!

 

Cheers.

 

http://www.photoethnography.com/ClassicCameras/index-frameset.html?KoniOmegaRapidM.html~mainFrame

 

http://www.mir.com.my/~michaeliu/medformat/konireview.html<div></div>

[nuno_campos1]

Well, thanks for the many answers. I have a lot of research and reading to do right now. But, I must say, the 620 option seems interesting. Probably I would be able to find a less expensive camera in better condition�

[dave_powell2]

Hi Again, Nuno!

 

Most of the 620 cameras will indeed cost less. And their condition (especially the Kodaks) may actually be better than some of the more sought-after folders. That's not because they were built better than, say, Ikontas or Bessas...but instead, because the "demise" of 620 film meant that cameras like the Monitor 620 simply were not used as much, or for as long, as were 120 cameras!

 

When checking condition, the lens is always a concern (clarity, lack of scratches and fungus, whether the shutter still works). Another concern for folders is the rigidity of the lens when the camera is open. If you can move the lens around when the camera is extended, don't buy! AND...unique to folders or any cammera that uses bellows, there are always potential light leaks. Gaps or pinholes in the bellows can put flares onto the film from holes that are very hard to find. Many people look for these holes by going into a darkened room, moving a flashlight around inside the body of the extended camera, and looking for little glowing spots in the bellows. But that hasn't worked for me. The only way I've been able to truly determine whether "pinholes" exist is to shoot a roll out in the sunlight.

 

I forgot to mention that some higher-end 620 cameras aren't folders. They can have great lenses, but can also be quite heavy. The Kodak Medalist immediately comes to mind. A lot of people LOVE its Ektar lens, but it is a monster to hold! Slightly smaller and lighter (and more Deco) is the 6x6 Chevron. And Kodak's Reflex and Reflex II TLRs also have fans. Another top-knotch "American" TLR is the Ansco Automatic Reflex. Kodak and Ansco cameras, in particular, can be great buys, since they lack a lot of the cache of the "classic" units. Kodak made great lenses, but the shutters that went with them should always be checked before buying!

 

More research for you!

 

--Dave

[dave_powell2]

Hi Again, Nuno!

 

Most of the 620 cameras will indeed cost less. And their condition (especially the Kodaks) may actually be better than some of the more sought-after folders. That's not because they were built better than, say, Ikontas or Bessas...but instead, because the "demise" of 620 film meant that cameras like the Monitor 620 simply were not used as much, or for as long, as were 120 cameras!

 

When checking condition, the lens is always a concern (clarity, lack of scratches and fungus, whether the shutter still works). Another concern for folders is the rigidity of the lens when the camera is open. If you can move the lens around when the camera is extended, don't buy! AND...unique to folders or any cammera that uses bellows, there are always potential light leaks. Gaps or pinholes in the bellows can put flares onto the film from holes that are very hard to find. Many people look for these holes by going into a darkened room, moving a flashlight around inside the body of the extended camera, and looking for little glowing spots in the bellows. But that hasn't worked for me. The only way I've been able to truly determine whether "pinholes" exist is to shoot a roll out in the sunlight.

 

I forgot to mention that some higher-end 620 cameras aren't folders. They can have great lenses, but can also be quite heavy. The Kodak Medalist immediately comes to mind. A lot of people LOVE its Ektar lens, but it is a monster to hold! Slightly smaller and lighter (and more Deco) is the 6x6 Chevron. And Kodak's Reflex and Reflex II TLRs also have fans. Another top-knotch "American" TLR is the Ansco Automatic Reflex. Kodak and Ansco cameras, in particular, can be great buys, since they lack a lot of the cache of the "classic" units. Kodak made great lenses, but the shutters that went with them should always be checked before buying!

 

More research for you!

 

--Dave

[dave_powell2]

Sorry 'bout hitting the post button twice! --Dave

[peter_naylor1]

Hi, Nuno Firstly - don't feel apologetic about your English, which is perfectly comprehensable. I only wish my German/French/Spanish/Portugese etc were as good! On which topic, for anybody out there whose English "nicht so gut ist", please don't feel too shy to submit your post. Nobody here is going to be so stupid as to criticize over syntax or grammatical errata - the main thing surely is that we can understand you.

 

Now, my recommendation in a compact MF is the AGFA Isolette 11 with Solinar 3.5 or 4.5 coated lens, preferably with Compur shutter. It's amazing how cheap these compact folders go for, but make sure the bellows are light-tight. Similar Isolette 111 models with uncoupled rangefinder cost a lot more.

 

If compact dimensions are not a problem, there's a lot of the lesser-known Rollei TLR clones that are also great value - such as the Meopta Flexaret and Beautyflex f3.5 which often sell on Fleabay for around $50.

 

You'll notice that all these recommendations have 4-element Tessar-based lenses. If you're prepared to accept that 3-element triplet lenses such as AGFA's Apotar can give excellent results from f8, there are even better bargains out there. ~~PN~~

[Charles_Webster]

I'm a firm believer in 6x6 TLRs as an entry to MF, since there are lots of good cheap cameras available, they take readily available film, and you get really big negatives compared to 35mm. I'd recommend something like a Ciro-Flex (Model F if you can find one) for about $20 on EBay.

 

Best luck,

 

<Chas>

[brenda_carpenter2]

620 film is still available at B&H. (I apologize if I am repeating what someone has already said. I have had great experience with several "folders" bought from ebay. The Agfa Ventura with Solinar 3.5 is especially good. Of course, the TLRs are better (Rolleiflex, Autocord, and Yashicas).

[diwan_bhathal]

How about a 6x6 Zeiss Nettar?

 

The lens of this camera when at f/8, has excellent sharpness and contrast. The Nettar is widely available today and the prices are very reasonable. The negative format will fit your enlarger.

 

Just a suggestion. I would avoid all non-120 format cameras, since these require additional manipulation and procedures to insert the film and removal, spooling, despooling and the like.

[djnathan]

Super Ricohflex! I have used Hasselblad, Ikoflex and Rolleicords, but I must admit that the results from my very inexpensive Super Ricohflex have been mostly wonderful. The shutter/release is a simple two way lever, speeds to 200, viewfinder accurate enough with the built in magnifier, and simple red window winder. Even in mint condition they are cheap! $50 should get you one in perfect order.