Portraits with Ilford HP5

[henry_alive]

I have taken some portraits with my F100, 105 AFD Macro and Ilford HP5 (400

ISO B&W). I have used Rodinal to develop the film. Unfortunatly, the portraits

have too much grain. Is the 105 AFD suitable to take portraits? Is there

something wrong with the HP5? What do you think about HP5 and Rodinal together?

Thank you.

[gnashings]

There is nothing wrong with your lens or camera. There is really nothing wrong with your film or developer - it is simply a case of a developer which does not exactly hide grain. Rodinal produces very sharp negatives that usually show exactly the grain of the film - unlike many others it does not desolve the silver grains to any extent, therefore is usually not the ideal developer for people who want minimal grain, especially combined with a film like HP5+ in 35mm.

There are several things at play here:

-first of all, your macro lens is probably deadly sharp, especially stopped down a bit - some people find that to not be ideal for portraits because it exposes any and all minute skin flaws, etc. Nothing wrong with the lens, just something you have to keep in mind when using it with human subjects.

-the grain is a result of two things that are known from your post: traditional emulsion 400 speed film, and a developer which does not hide any of that grain. Other things to consider are dilution of developer (did you use 1+25, 1+50?), and the possibility of overexposure, overdevelopment - both serve to increase grain.

 

As to solutions, there are several ways to go. If you need a 400 speed film for your work due to available light, etc., try going with a t-grain film such as Delta 400. They are generally finer grained than traditional films of the same speed (ie. traditional technology films: Kodak TriX, Ilford HP5+, Agfa APX400 are some of the common ones - t-grain (some call them "new technology" films) are the Kodak TMax line (in this case TMY being the 400 ASA variety), Iford Delta, Fuji Acros. If you do not need the speed, I would strongly recommend (especially to a 35mm shooter) trying a slower, finer grained film like Delta 100, Tmax TMX from Kodak, Fuji Acros (again, all new tech, t-grain films), or going even slower with something like a Ilford PanF or one of the Efke films - 50 and 25 speed films of traditional type, but very fine grained. Those films, even developed in Rodinal will give you very fine grain from a 35mm neg.

Another approach is to try a different developer: Ilford Perceptol is an excellent fine grain developer, but will cost you some speed (ie, you may have to rate your films a stop slower to get best results), or even an old stand by like ID11 or D76 (same developer, different manufacturers) will give not accentuate your grain the way Rodinal does.

Now, as to the last part of your question: there is nothing wrong with HP5+ - its simply the type of film that it is, and by that virtue is not fine grained (see above). Aside from grain size, many people don't like the look of HP5+. I was one of those people, but have experimented more with it, and have to say that now that I figured out some things, I am getting along with it much better.

As to the specific combo of HP5+ and Rodinal - I have used it, and again, you are not dealing with any deficiency, but rather a "nature of the beast" - I wold suggest if tight grain isyour aim, try one of the options I mentioned above. I like grain, and Rodinal is by far my favourite developer - but its not everyone's cup of tea, and even I have to admit, it is not the right tool for some jobs. Look at it this way - you can't blame a hammer for not being a screwdriver.

In conclusion to my little long winded essay (for which I apologize!), I suggest that the simplest method for you to go with is to evaluate your specific needs as to film speed, be very careful about your exposure and development to begin with. Then, choose the slowest film that will work for you!(a tripod is of great help here), opting for a t-grain film if you need the extra speed - or you may simply find you like the look, many people do and soup it in a developer like D76 or ID11 (there are many others - these just happen to be ones I am familiar with) - simple, reliable, flexible, capable of full flm speed while not accentuating grain. Be very careful about your dev time and temp so as not to overdevelop. You should see a marked decrease in grain visibility. If you want to stick with Rodinal, I would suggest a higher dilution - I usually go with 1+50. If you go with D76, try it at 1+1 as many people find the stock solution to produce somewhat mushy results - I do, but many photogs, far better than I, get great results from stock D76, its largely a matter of taste. Best of luck, hope you find a combo you like!

[ronald_moravec1]

Fine grain is best with T Max 400, Delta 400 in Xtol. DDX,or undiluted D76, or Tri x.

 

Should you be able to use any one at EI 200, cut the development time 20% and you will get much finer grain, better shadow detail, and really long scale prints. No downside except speed loss.

 

Rodinal gives large grain with high speed films. If you want fine grain, smooth creamy tones, use undiluted developers, slower films, larger formats, or pulled films , ie 1/2 speed exposure.

 

You can get high speed, fine grain, or extreme resolution. Pick only ONE. They seem to be mutually exclusive.

[mark liddell]

hp5 is really nice in perceptol 1:2 rated at 200. Using a grainy film with a dev that isn't exactly fine grain to begin with is asking for large grain.

[klix]

You're using the wrogn developer for your purpose.

 

At 400 EI, there is nothing better with Hp5+ than HC-110, Dilution B.

 

KL

[frank.schifano]

I'm pretty much in agreement with what's already been voiced about the subject. Since you are working in the 35mm format, you might want to try using a slower film like FP4+ or Plus-X. If you like the Delta or TMax films, then give Delta 100 or 100TMX a try. Any of those films will get you far less grain than you will ever get with a faster film regardless of developer choice.

 

HP5+ is not my first choice for a film in this speed category. I prefer Tri-X because it gives me a little more wiggle room for working with a handheld camera in poor lighting conditions. Under most circumstances HP5+ and Tri-X can be used interchangeably. Neither of these films would be a good first choice for formal portraiture using 35mm film. Grain will always be visible in an 8x enlargement regardless of developer. Rodinal will be the worst of the bunch. I particularly do not like HP5+ in Rodinal. That's got to be one of the worst pairings of film and developer I've ever had the misfortune to use. If you are working in medium or large format, the combination can be made to work reasonably well. In miniature format where large degrees or enlargement are common, it's best to leave it alone. You'll only be wasting of your time and materials.

 

Your subject will be much better served by using a slower film. Both FP4+ and Plus-X are almost perfect for this application. If you prefer Delta or TMax films then try Delta 100 or TMax 100 films. Plus-X or FP4+ will work better in Rodinal than the Delta or TMax films. All of them will work better still in XTOL or D-76.

 

There's nothing wrong with your camera and lens combination. Yes, that macro lens is likely to be razor sharp and that might not always be complimentary to your subject. Use a wide aperture to throw the background out of focus as much as possible. You can soften blemishes and wrinkles by stretching a nylon stocking across the fron of the lens and holding it in place with a rubber band.

[keith_tapscott]

HP5 Plus is fine for portraiture, although I personally prefer to use it in medium format for portraiture. For 35mm, I would be more inclined to use FP4 Plus.

[johndc]

Wow this thread reads like a book.

 

But I concur with what's been said. Rodinal and HP5+ are a grainy combination, not really suitable for soft tone portrait work. I have had a great deal of success using HP5 and Rodinal (1+100) for night photography, however. If you're doing low-light portraits I might even recommend it.

 

HP5+ is a great film, though. And it really shines in XTOL and Ilfotec DD-X. I've shot portraits with it @ 800 and been plenty pleased with the results. If you don't want to mix from a powder, try the Ilfotec DD-X.

[lex_jenkins]

Since you've asked the same question on the Nikon Forum it appears that you're surprised that combining a sharp film/developer technique with a sharp lens would produce results that are sharper with more apparent grain than you might want for a portrait.

 

However there is no simple answer. Plenty of great portraits have been taken with sharp film and sharp lenses. An understanding of the effects of cosmetics and lighting also helps.

 

You can also control the impact of apparent grain and sharpness with careful printing.

[Aoresteen]

I use a lot of HP5 and I rate it at EI 200. My developer of choice is HC-110B and I develop it for 5 1/2 minutes at 68 degrees F. 11x14 prints a very smooth (I use cold light/VC printing heads, not condensors).

 

Try backing off the EI and use D76 or HC 110.

[blakley]

A low-light portrait on HP5 in Ilfotec DD-X 1+4.<div></div>

[blakley]

Sorry; wrong version - here's the correctly sized picture. By the way, the grain in this photo is fine to my eye.<div></div>

[jay_de_fehr]

Henry,

 

I'll start by admitting that I've never been a fan of Rodinal with any film, and I find it at its worst with fast films. Rodinal fans often claim that Rodinal doesn't exaggerate grain, but shows "true grain", unlike developers that contain enough sulfite to act as a silver solvent, but that doesn't explain why other low/no-sulfite, acutance developers produce much finer grain than Rodinal does. In my opinion, if you don't like grain, you shouldn't use Rodinal.In fact, I think you'll get better results by switching to any other developer. I've made a lot of portraits with fast films and sharp lenses. I just don't believe too much sharpness is a realistic problem, especially in 35mm. Too much contrast, and/or too much grain, or harsh tonality are more likely candidates for trouble.

 

If you're determined to use Rodinal, be sure to give ample exposure (Rodinal loses speed compared to standard developers, like D-76), and be careful not to overdevelop, especially if your using a condenser enlarger. Good luck.

 

Jay

[henry_alive]

Thank you for all the comments. I am going to work with another developer. Thanks again.

[martins_livens]

... Bob Blakley Photo.net Patron, may 22, 2006; 10:11 p.m.

A low-light portrait on HP5 in Ilfotec DD-X 1+4 ...

 

Under low light (low contrast) and slow shutter speed, picture is soft - so film doesnt show it's real sharpness. It would not be good test sample here. At least I got impresion Henry uses something like studio enviropment (good flash or natural ligh).

 

ps. shallow DOF should make it even more soft.

 

anyway interesting shot, thought hand "disappering" inside bookeh, and palm showing like a white patch is confusing.

[blakley]

The scene contrast is actually rather high; here's an actual-pixels crop of the scan from a light-midtone area (the shirt collar) which gives a pretty accurate idea of what the grain looks like on the negative through a loupe.<div></div>

[blakley]

The question, by the way, was about grain, not sharpness.

[martins_livens]

ah yes, sorry - just in rodinal Henry get sharp large grain.. that was the problem. There is kind of relationship of sharpnes and grain, they work together.

[timothy_nolan]

I've never managed to tame HP5+ grain with rodinal, though its not as horrific as say, APX400 in rodinal (salt and pepper everywhere!). I think all your hardware and film is fine, I just might suggest my go-to developer for creamy skin tones: Xtol.

 

Very nice results on skin. Along with Rodinal its one of my two main soups.

[scott_evans9]

I use <b>FA-1027 developer 1-9 @ 20C</b> exclusively with <b>HP5</b> in all formats. This is a kind of sort of HC-110 dil B developer but with better accutence and overall a better edge effect. I struggled with what film to use with portraits and I have tried them all but for me HP5 is the best film out there for my portrait work.

 

I do like the T-Grain films but you must be very accurate in your development time and if I had to choose one T-Grain film I would choose <b>TMAX 400>/b>. I do like <b>Fuji Acros 100</b> BUT developers are hard to find and I hate mixing powder chemicals. The best thing to do IMHO is to pick a film and a developer and learn, no master, that combination. I am not sure any one film is "better" than the other I think it is about technique and consistency<div></div>

[peterbcarter]

<p>Always trying new things, souped Rodinal 1:100 for 60 mins stand. Good contrast and livable grain. There is always a way....</p><div></div>