Saul Leiter 'Early Color'

[barefoot]

Vicous? Course its vicous. It's the way it should be. Trick is dont talk, walk or dress like a

nonce and always carry a spare bag of base.

[terry_rory]

"I'd be interested in hearing Trevor's response."

 

That there is racism in the UK?

 

Why my response particularly Boris?

[boris c hann]

"Why my response particularly Boris?"

 

Because you were an integral part of an interesting thread, and I'm curious what you make

of the experiences of both myself and Bob in your country. If you had a dumb track record

here I wouldn't be remotely interested in your perspective, but if you don't want to

comment then don't. Not sure why you're being defensive, I'm certainly not attacking you

in any way.

 

Just in case people imagine I'm being harsh on the Welsh, I'd like to quash one myth that

some of my English friends are happy to propagate - the notion that if you enter a Welsh

bar the locals will revert to Welsh in order to privately insult you. My experience is the

reverse, on at least one occasion a group of people in a bar happily switched from Welsh

to English so that the insults were loud and clear.

[andrewlamb]

"France, for example, has real problems with racism, but it's much more in the open -"

 

I think it's only now in the open after the recent riots in the banlieus.

 

For 15 years I photographed fashion shows in, amongst other places, Paris. Before a show

starts two guys in overalls pull away the plastic sheeeting that protected the catwalk. The

guys pulling away the plastic would inevitably be the only Asians in the room. I have lost

count of the number of times some of the less charming members of the French photo

agencies (is there any other kind?) would chant 'Avec nous, Les Pakus'.

 

I don't think any of us get off lightly on this one.

[terry_rory]

Sorry Boris. Thought I was going to be set up as your 'token' yokel because I had made it known I live outside London. Yes I admit I was being a bit defensive.

 

OK I will respond. Of course there are racists in the UK. I live in a city that has a long maritime history and has drawn in minorities from many cultures and about 15,000 - 20,000 university students every year from all over the world.

 

Sadly this has not made some of the inhabitants more open to varied cultural influences and there is a stubborn and unhealthy streak of thuggish racist ignorance that predominates because of unemployment, low income, bad educationional/life chances and sheer proud stupidity and is fuelled by the gutter press tabloids and television and the education system. I don't think it has much to do with 'Empire' any more. A lot of the racists are too thick to even know there ever WAS an empire.

 

As for Cornwall and Wales (and especially the Isle of Wight!) you are not alone in your experiences. I regularly visit the Isle of Wight (it is only 5 miles away) and people there often display a particular home grown xenophobia and distrust of outsiders. My eldest daughter has been doing her 'teaching experience' (for a post grad teaching course) for 10 days in an IOW school and some of the kids were suprised that as a mainlander she did not have horns and a tail!

 

There was a woman from a small farm in Exmoor, in her sixties, who recently 'emerged' into existence having been kept as a slave by her late father since she had been a small child. She had not gone to school or been allowed to ever venture beyond the farm. Not even local people knew of her existance. There is an old gent in Norfolk who has slept in the same bed in the same house every single night since he was born. He is 95 years old. Although they are unusual it does illustrate the insularity of some of these places.

 

Expecting them to change is difficult when an 'outsider' means someone who may buy a local property for quarter of a million pounds as a weekend cottage and price another local young couple out of the village they were born in, forcing them to live in a damp council flat on a 'sink' estate 20 miles away. Many villages have become retirement communities for the rich as a result. Schools close, pubs and shops close and communities are lost.

 

These pockets of parochialism exist everywhere but it is more and more unusual to find it. There are villages who demonise people from a village in the next valley let alone people from other countries and cultures.

 

I don't want to go too far down this road of damning my own country, uniquely, for attitudes that exist everywhere (racism, xenophobia is sadly universal).

 

Sorry again Boris for the tardiness of my response. I honestly thought you wanted me to be your 'yokel' and did not want that part.

[boris c hann]

"I think it's only now in the open after the recent riots in the banlieus."

 

It's not so recent, I remember being in Lyons in the early 90s and there being serious

tensions then. Wasn't Kassovitz's La Haine (which is brilliantly done) released in the mid

-90s?

 

"I have lost count of the number of times some of the less charming members of the

French photo agencies (is there any other kind?) would chant 'Avec nous, Les Pakus'."

 

There are some really repugnant smalltime French press photographers, but they certainly

have their counterparts in the Brit press. Where I think the UK and France differ is in the

French tradition of debate. The anti-intellectualism of much of Brit society tends to go

against dialogue.

 

"I don't think any of us get off lightly on this one."

 

I agree, though I think all of Europe still lags behind the US in the ultimate potential of

transcending your race/class (and you're going to have to trust me on this - I could write

all day on the deficiencies of American culture and politics). It would be almost

unthinkable for a British/French equivalent of Colin Powell to have risen to the the top of

their respective militaries.

 

Broadly sticking to the theme, have you seen the latest Haneke movie?

[boris c hann]

Trevor, I'm sorry. I have a nasty habit of shifting seamlessly from dumb to smart to dumb

again. Sometimes I do it deliberately to disorientate people (I'm even worse in person),

but that wasn't my intention here.

[robert x]

It's a shame really - this thread was introducing me to some interesting photographers.It

seems to have descended into a hate-fest.

 

I am sure you will not agree Boris, but your opinions about "the Welsh" smell bad to me. I

do not doubt that you say you had a bad experience there, but also don't really know the

details. Maybe you just went into the wrong pubs. I met an Algerian once who told me that

he did not like the French "because they generalised". I don't think he saw the irony. My

father was Welsh. So was David Lloyd George and Nye Bevan and many hundreds of

thousands of other people who are not as you say. It's rude and insulting to speak as you

do and shows a lack of real thought.

 

R

[boris c hann]

Dumb as charged. Boris Y.

[andrewlamb]

It came out, on DVD, last week and I'm going to buy it. I read several interviews with the

director when it was released in the UK and I was intrigued, to say the least. He referred to

the incident in the late '50s or was in early '60s by the Seine. More post-colonial legacies

coming back to haunt, he said the day after 7/7.

 

Today's major cultural treat comes in the form of seeing the new Stoppard, 'Rock n' Roll',

at the Royal Court. It sounds like a real return to form after the Utopia Trilogy which I

thought was a bit turgid.

 

Have to agree about the Brit press pack. There's one really nice guy I know who told me

that he was used to get the piss taken out of him for trying cover some assignments with

his M2 (back on topic). They thought he'd gone all 'arty farty' on them.

 

Interestingly, I do know quite a few black Brit press photographers. I have yet to come

across a French one, I'm sure they're out there.

[terry_rory]

Have you seen Stoppards's Rock n Roll yet?

 

The last Stoppard I saw was 'Arcadia'. (Felicity Kendal, Bill Nighy) Superb.

[terry_rory]

"I was on a schoolboy rugby tour in the early 80's "

 

Yes, I just picked up on that one. Peter is a year or two older than me (I am 46) so even if the tour was in 1980 Pete would have been at least 22.

 

But I suppose a lifetime of rugby induced head injuries takes their toll.

[terry_rory]

Can't even focus sometimes..../

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/uploaded-file?bboard_upload_id=12086884

[andrewlamb]

"The last Stoppard I saw was 'Arcadia'. (Felicity Kendal, Bill Nighy) Superb."

 

I saw that production. wonderful. However, I still a headache trying to work out what

'Jumpers' was all about.

[boris c hann]

"It came out, on DVD, last week and I'm going to buy it. I read several interviews with the

director when it was released in the UK and I was intrigued, to say the least. He referred to

the incident in the late '50s or was in early '60s by the Seine. More post-colonial legacies

coming back to haunt, he said the day after 7/7."

 

For the sake of anybody who doesn't know what "it" is, it's a reference to the latest Michael

Haneke film Hidden (Cache in France). The "incident" is the massacre of (up to) 200

protesting Algerians in Paris in 61 during a police operation led by Maurice Papon, their

bodies dumped in The Seine. The film is set in the present, but with flashbacks to the

time. It's good, and well worth buying on dvd - if only because it effortlessly demolishes

my earlier comments about French openness. It's also worth

checking out his earlier film Code Unknown which makes use of a bundle of Luc Delahayes

photographs.

 

"Have to agree about the Brit press pack. There's one really nice guy I know who told me

that he was used to get the piss taken out of him for trying cover some assignments with

his M2 (back on topic). They thought he'd gone all 'arty farty' on them."

 

What's depressing about the Britpack is that those who work for the broadsheets (with a

few honorable exceptions) are every bit as boneheaded as their tabloid brethren.

 

"I do know quite a few black Brit press photographers. I have yet to come across a French

one"

 

I only ever met one black Brit photographer, a lovely guy by the name of Ilkey Mehmet

(from a black Turkish immigrant background) who for a while was a staff photographer for

The Telegraph. I met him in Belfast in 88 and 89, but I was subsequently told he packed it

in -

largely due to the neanderthal tendencies of his colleagues. The closest I've ever got to

laying out another photographer was a Brit broadsheet guy who thought he was

enormously witty in referring to Ilkey as Inky Mehmet - I regret to this day not following

up my verbal abuse with a physical attack. I've never come across a black French

photographer, but I do know a very lovely black French photo editor....

 

To Mr X, I'm sorry if I offended you with my "hatefest", but I genuinely found Wales to be a

strangely hostile

place (and I've been to a lot of supposedly hostile places). I guess it's going to be difficult

to reassure you, but if I was serious about inciting hate crimes against the Welsh I'd

probably choose a more incendiary place than this odd but (hopefully) intriguing thread.

My comments are less the howlings of a bigot, and more the inane witterings of a man

wading through a hundred gigs of RAW files in pursuit of a first edit. In my defense, I do

have two very good Welsh friends who share a lot of my misgivings. Anyway, just to stop

you feeling too righteous I'll add some other Welsh (utterly non) notables to your list - the

Kinnock clan (who I had the misfortune to meet), greedy Euro parasites par excellence. Not

so smug now.....

[robert x]

Boris (if I may) - No great offence taken - I just object to the entire population seemingly

being tarred with the same brush. It's only North Wales that's like that. [that was a joke ha ha]

 

Robert

[nesrani]

Boris - presumably you mean "caché" - absolutely brilliant, answers none of its questions and forces the viewer to confront himself as much as its characters. Shame that Haneke's next project is a remake of Funny Games with Naomi Watts. Maybe he'll be able to turn it inside out in some way, but the idea does seem to pander to exactly what he has always targeted in his films - violence as spectacle. Well, its a step up for him careerwise, I suppose. Naomi Watts is the obvious choice for the fragile but strong, sexy but intelligent, etc etc victim.

 

As to Wales - I lived near to Pontypool for a year in the late 80's - people would start speaking Welsh when you went into shops, you had to keep away from pubs at closing time, etc etc. Newport was famous for Saturday night stabbings. Maybe they're all lovely people when you get to know them, but that wasn't the impression I got at the time. It's also possible things have changed in the UK since I left. I'm glad my daughter is growing up in Italy.

[nesrani]

BTW - For anyone who hasn't seen it, Caché does not focus on the Paris riots - that is simply a historical note to the drama in the present. And the racist history is not central to the film in any way. More of a contextualisation - it mirrors in the public sphere the hidden or forgotten personal history that drives the film. Well, that's my take on it, anyway.

 

Actually, I think Caché could just as well have been called Oublié.

[boris c hann]

"Boris - presumably you mean "caché""

 

Vicious. You sure you're not Welsh. Life's too short to learn accent keystroke combos.

 

"Haneke's next project is a remake of Funny Games with Naomi Watts"

 

Sounds interesting. Apparently it's a real feelgood movie. Two mysterious but kindly

young men

arrive at a country home, save the life of the family puppy, and leave a gift of a box of

eggs.

 

"As to Wales - I lived near to Pontypool for a year in the late 80's - people would start

speaking Welsh when you went into shops, you had to keep away from pubs at closing

time, etc etc. Newport was famous for Saturday night stabbings"

 

Frankly Bob, I'm disappointed. More tedious and unfounded hate directed at a long

subjugated

and gentle group of people. Next you'll be bizarrely suggesting that Nick Griffin, leader of

the avowedly racist British National Party, has left England for the more congenial

atmosphere of rural Wales. Oh, err, hang on.....

 

"Caché...a historical note to the drama in the present...the racist history is not

central...More of a contextualisation - it mirrors in the public sphere the hidden or

forgotten personal history that drives the film...Actually, I think Caché could just as well

have been called Oublié."

 

I'd love to see you quoting those lines at closing time in Pontypool.

[terry_rory]

"Peter A Photo.net Patron Prolific Poster, jul 08, 2006; 10:49 a.m.

Trev - I am fascianted by your calculations"

 

Easy one Pete. It is from what you told us in one of those Leica Forum... "tell us about yourself" threads. You gave your age.

[boris c hann]

Don't jump to conclusions Trevor, it could have been his IQ score.

[nesrani]

>>>

"Boris - presumably you mean "caché""

 

Vicious. You sure you're not Welsh. Life's too short to learn accent keystroke combos.

 

>>>

 

First off, my keyboard has all those accents already - more proof of what a stuck up ponce I am. But the truth is that i wrote that before I read - don't know how i skipped it - your own quotation of the name.

 

BTW - have you seen Time of the Wolf? I was impressed, although the ending is strangely feelgood for Haneke. I wish the Glaciation Trilogy was available on DVD.

 

You're right of course, I fully merit the wrath of the Welsh for being a pretentious poofter, there's no denying it. The good thing about living in Italy is that I can say such things in English and no-one understands - they just give me detailed instructions to the Colosseum.

 

BTW Trevor - if you don't want to be Boris's yokel, would you consider being mine?

[boris c hann]

No, I haven't seem The Time of the Wolf, but I did see the Piano Teacher which had me and

my companion laughing out loud - which I'm guessing wasn't Haneke's intention.

However, I liked the latest film enough to rewatch Code Unknown, and was surprized to

find it a lot more satisfying the second time round. Changing tack a bit, I really

recommend Wes Anderson's The Life Aquatic if you want a break from all the Euroangst.

 

As to yokels, I find one just isn't enough anymore. I have an international troupe of them

that I've collected over the years on my travels.

[terry_rory]

To put an accent on ᠵse Alt and 160

[terry_rory]

Haha! then find that PN software does not allow it.

 

Wonderful