Dark Negatives

[maddog50]

Hi I have searched these threads and cant seem to find a definite

answer to this problem Im shooting HP5 in MF outside in very

bright light with a faded out white barn as a background The

problem is the negs come out very dark Im spot metering on the

barn placing it on zone 7 or 8 usually shooting at 500 f/16 or f/11

 

I developed in D76 1+1 for 13mins 20degrees as per the Massive Dev.

chart Ilford recomends 11mins Would this difference make the

negs dark? I thought the longer the time the negs would be lighter

or very thin Any help would be great This forum has straightened

me out before

 

Mark

[ann_clancy6]

the longer the development time the denser the negative becomes(darker).

 

You may have over developed the negatives and or over exposed or both, which creates "darker" negative

[andrew_limiti]

Just as Ann says its a combination of both. Did you meter the important shadows Z3 and highlights Z7 of the scene? Were the metered values for 4stops apart? No? More? Than the contrast was too high and adjustments need to be made in the development. If the scene has high contrast, you would need to reduce development at least 20% from 11M to get accurate representation. When you metered the barn, and open up the lens aperture to put it in the desired zone, if you don't do as above, essentially you are saying I care about the barn, and the rest of the scene can fall into whatever zone. That in combination with the over development would result in an overally dense negative.

[maddog50]

Andrew I did have all the other things in the picture within 3 stops from the barn I have shot the same barn with Pan f with great results I was confused about the fact if i overexposed and or overdeveloped I would get dark negs The strip on the side where it would say ILFORD HP5 isnt clear at all

 

Mark

[maddog50]

Thanks Ann That is the answer that i was looking for I will use 11mins next time as a starting point as Ilford recommends It seems funny that they come out good sometimes and not the others I try to keep everything the same eg. agitation stop and fix

 

 

Mark

[frank.schifano]

Two things are working against you here if I'm reading your complaint correctly. First, you are overdeveloping the film. That will bump up your contrast enough to make the white barn look washed out in the print, and very dark in the negative. Second, I'm not so sure about your metering. The barn may not be nearly as bright as you think and you may be overexposing the film. Take an an incident light reading of the scene, in fact take several incident readings and average them out. If you don't have an incident meter, just meter off a standard gray card at several points in the scene. That will give you the exposure you need to place the gray card more or less in zone 5. Compare that to the spot reading you're getting off the barn. If the spot reading of the barn comes in at two stops brighter then your exposure is ok. If not, it isn't and you need to make some adjustments.

[ronald_moravec1]

Exposure should be between 11 and 11-16. Check the shutter to be sure it is giving 1/500.

 

I develope all Ilford film at their recommended time less 10% and they print without fail on a condenser enlarger.

 

A slow shutter or 2-3 minutes extra developer time will make them dark.

 

People who use a leaf shutter at 1/500 and 1/250 and small lens openings know they automatically get more exposure than the combination calls for. The shutter speed is calibrated to full open time. With small stops, full open equavalent occurres faster than than with bigger stops thus giving extra exposure by about 1/2 stop. This was actually printed on data sheets for High Speed Ektachrome packaged with each box in the 1960`s, although not in this detail. I wish I could make this paragraph red type.

 

Pick a film developer combo and stick with it. Using someone else`s data is asking for trouble.

[roger_hicks1]

Dear Mark,

 

I will heartily second Ronald's advice that using someone else's data is asking for trouble, and that a single film/dev combination is almost invariably easiest, but I would add two riders.

 

The first is that just as he develops his films for a little less time than the manufacturer recommends, and gets the results he wants, I develop for a little longer than the recommended time to get the results I want. Ronald would get poor results with my time; I would get poor results from his.

 

The second is that the 'one film-one dev' advice should ONLY be followed once you have a film/dev combination you are reasonably happy with. Even a 'bulletproof' combination such as HP5 in D-76 won't work for absolutely everyone, and by the time you are using (say) Acros or D19 (let alone the two together, which Heaven forfend) it may take forever to find the best development regime.

 

As for the metering, without wishing to appear rude, I cannot help wondering if you are trying to run before you can walk. If you believed that longer development made for lighter negs, I somehow doubt that you know enough about basic sensitometry to get much benefit from the Zone System.

 

As I say, I do not wish to appear rude, but I had similar problems myself when I first read about the Zone System some decades ago: I just didn't know enough about the basics, so I wasted a lot of time trying to do things I didn't really understand, by rote. When I came back to the Zone System, many years later, I found most of it to be a jargon-laden restatement of basic sensitometry, which by that time I understood, though the naming of Zones remains a work of genius.

 

If the Zone System works for you, let no-one discourage you from using it; but if it does not, then reflect that there are at least as many great B+W photographers who do not use the Zone System as there are who do use it, and abandon it without a backward glance.

 

Cheers,

 

Roger

[maddog50]

Frank Thanks for the help but i use a Pentax 1 deg. spotmeter anddo average out the scene to make sure the other areas will fall where I want them to I have shot the same barn manyn times before using Pan F at 25asa with great results using the Massive dev. chart for times Also have shot this film indoors using real slow shutter speeds and large aperatues with great results It seems like when i use fast sutter speeds and f/11 or 16 I get dark negs I will keep working on this

 

Thanks for all the help

 

 

Mark

[ronald_moravec1]

Please go back and read above why fast speeds and small openings do not work as expected.

[ronald_moravec1]

One last thought. The masive development chart is a compilation of data from different people. The person who submitted data for Panf may have the same water etc as you, but the high speed person may have something different. His thermometer may not even be accurate, then again maybe yours and the Pan f submitter are both wrong, but in the same direction.

 

By using manufacturer`s directions, all the variables are removed as everthing is done precisely. It may not match your work for many reasons, but if you find a correction factor for one film, that is a good starting point for another from the same manufacturer.

[maddog50]

Ronald Thanks for the info I will adjust my exposure accordingly with the aperature as i cant go faster than 500 with this setup Thanks to All

 

 

Mark

[maddog50]

Ronald,

You suggested to make sure that my camera is giving me 1/500 speed. How would I check to make sure that it is giving that speed? I shot the roll at 1/500 at f16. I dont see how you could actually figure if it is shooting 1/500 of a second.

 

 

Mark

[james_noel1]

"The strip on the side where it would say ILFORD HP5 isnt clear at all"

 

Here is the major clue.

The film must be fogged, or not cleared sufficiently in the fixer. Neither exposure nor development will darken this area of the film. My first inclination is to suspect fogging as the culprit.

 

Also remember, if you are photographing a white object, the barn, and placing it on ZOne VII - VIII that area of the film will be dense so that it will print as white not as white produced by under-exposure and/or under-development of the print.

[j_sew]

First, I would not use HP5 in a bright light condition. This film was designed for much lower light conditions. Secondly, it does sound like a little bit of over developement and possilbly overexposure as well. If available, I would send a set of exposed and unprocessed film to a professional lab. Comparing the negatives, will give you and idea of what a standard neg should look like. The other option, as others mentioned, is to reduce your developing time and make sure that you are conforming to what the proper agitaion times are. But first I would use a much slower speed of film.

[Rob F.]

"First, I would not use HP5 in a bright light condition. This film was designed for much lower light conditions."

 

Huh? Sorry, I can't agree with that one. HP5 can work just fine outdoors, even though its speed isn't strictly necessary on bright days.

 

Mark will get good results from HP-5 when he solves his problems with it. 13 minutes in D-76 1:1 sounds too long for this application. 9 minutes or 10 at the most would have been better. And as others have said, the picture may have been overexposed as well.

 

Stay with it, Mark.

[j_sew]

Rob, let me correct myself on the HP5. You can use HP5 in any situation. There seems to be something wrong with one of the many variables involved here. It could be an issue of metering, the type of metering. Acuracy of the camera shutter, processing chemistry, thermometer, etc. I suggest sending film out to be processed by a prolab only to arrive at what should be a standard negative. When tinkering with the zone system, it's reliant on controlled variables. I would suggest photographing a gray card and exposing at normal, +1, +2, +3, +4, +5, -1, -2, -3, -4, -5. Take this negative and get some densitometric readings. The reading will give and indication of proper speed of the film as well as developement.

The other question here is can you achieve a printable image, and what contrast level are you having to work with.

My best guess is that your shadow area (shadow with detail) is beyond zone 3 and perhaps in zone 1. I suggest a slower speed film, due to the long film curve that it provides. The other approach is to expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights.