Developing for coarse grain with Ilford FP4 (or other)

[jason_pleaner1]

Hi All,

 

For a school assignment, I am trying to emulate the magnificent

looking, grainy images created by Australian Photograoher, Trent

Parke. Refer to

http://www.stillsgallery.com.au/artists/t_parke/page02.php although

this is not easy to see grain at this reproduction size.

 

In another thread, it was noted that Parke uses Ilford FP4. I have

not used this film before, but according to the manufacturer, this

is a EXTREMELY FINE GRAIN film. I understand that processing in

Rodinal at a higher temperature and PUSHING by say 2 stops may

produce this grainyness even in FP4.

 

Has anyone had experience with cranking up the grain in pushed FP4

or even another film?

 

Thanks

 

Jason<div></div>

[bruce_karnopp1]

And while you are looking, check the depth of field!

[jason_pleaner1]

Bruce,

 

Are you suggesting that the lens is well and truely closed up, therefore the shutter speed is slow and therefore it may infact be a high speed film, and not FP4?

 

Jason

[al_divenuti]

Jason,

 

You're going about this the hard way. Yes, a two stop push in Rodinal will accentuate grain. Be advised, though, that increasing your temperature will also accelerate development and you may overdevelop as a result unless you reduce your development time.

 

It doesn't look to me like that Parkes' photo was shot with FP4+. There's more shadow detail there than FP4+ is going to give you.

 

I would recommend shooting Ilford Delta 3200 at EI3200 and developing it in DD-X. Plenty of shadow detail and large fluffy grain. You can also try developing it in Rodinal to give larger, grittier grain, though this will cost you quite a bit of details in your shadows.

[marco_buonocore]

<p>Jason,</p>

 

<p>Rodinal is a great developer if you want to see the grain of a film. You'll certainly see a grain pattern if you push fp4 a stop or two, and develop it in 1:25. I'm assuming you're shooting 35mm? What I would do is buy a roll and bracket like a bandit, to see how far you might want to push things. I'd also suggest tri-x or hp5 in Rodinal - the grain will be even more evident. APX 400 developed in straight d76/id11 is also nice IMHO. Here's an example of that, 35mm on a tripod. </p>

 

<a href="http://www.imageshack.us"><img src="http://img100.exs.cx/img100/2981/apx400grain6cd.jpg" border="0" width="600" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" /></a>

 

<p>Good luck,</P>

[marco_buonocore]

BTW - forgot to mention, the stand out thing about Parke's images doesn't seem to be grain to me, but just about everything else you can name - they're magnificent. The one you've got linked is magic. Do you reckon that was shot from the Rushcutters or Vaucluse part of town? That vista looks familar....

[jason_pleaner1]

Al,

Correct me if i am wrong, shooting Delta 3200 at 3200 is really a push of 2 stops. So you will naturally lost shadow detail a bit (not that that is a bad thing). I like the suggestion of DD-X which sounds like the dev that will give the results I am after. I don't really want UGLY grain, but i do want a bit of grain.

 

Marco,

I might have to give the FP4 in Rodinal a go. although according to Al, the grian is a bit edgy. As for the APX400 in D76, is that image you shot pushed and what would you recommend for times and temperatures?

 

Not sure on the location since i live in Melbourne, but from my experience of Sydney it certainly looks like the eastern suburbs!

 

Thanks

 

Jason

[jason_pleaner1]

BTW, Al, DD-X doesn't seem to be readily availible in Australia and the one place that seems to have it is selling 5L bottles at AU$70 which is a bit scary! Is there something similar? Or if you also live here is Aus, where might I get it from?

[marco_buonocore]

Jason,

 

There are some examples of delta 3200 grain <a href="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00BfqQ&unified_p=1">here</a> in a recent thread on the topic.

[conrad_hoffman]

There are all sorts of qualities to grain, and you have to find something that pleases you. It can be sharp and crisp, or quite muddy and fuzzy. The easiest way to get grain has little to do with film and developer. Just back up, or use a wide angle, then crop the heck out of the neg when you print it. Run that enlarger right into the ceiling!

[al_divenuti]

Jason,

 

Yes - the true speed of Delta 3200 is closer to ISO 1200 so, of course, at EI 3200 you are pushing it. DD-X, however, is pretty good at wringing speed out of most films, which is why I would recommend it over, say, Rodinal or D-76.

 

If Internet sources are to be believed, then DD-X should make a return to the shelves by early summer.

 

In the meantime I think Kodak XTOL is probably the best replacement. If you must use a liquid concentrate then the only thing that comes to mind that is universally available and similar to DD-X (at least somewhat similar) is Kodak T-MAX developer.

 

I don't know if Clayton Chemicals are available where you are, but a search of the archives here suggests there are a couple offerings with good film speed. I haven't used them myself and am not too familiar with them.

[don_mckeith]

I got DD-X via ups yesterday- b/o from adorama a couple of weeks ago.

 

Jason- if you want to use FP4- expose at 125 and develop in dektol 1:8 for 7.5- 8 min- it'll be a little contrasty,but be careful not to hurt yourself on the grain.

[hugh_crawford1]

Try D-19 1 to 1 75 degrees F :05 . Shoot a test roll of whatever film you want and determine exposure. It's an high acuttance scientific developer and gives very sharp beautiful grain. I used to use it with 120 pan-x (beautiful) , it looks nice with pan-f , but with tri-x the grain is like nothing else.

 

BTW, agitate HARD about 3-5 seconds every 30 seconds, or if you want lots of adjacency effect try agitating every 30 seconds.

 

Experiment, have fun.

[hugh_crawford1]

if you want lots of adjacency effect try agitating every _60_ seconds.

[tinshed]

Jason,

 

Try Vanbar in Carlton for DD-X. They have a shelf full of one litre bottles.

 

Lou

[frank.schifano]

Jason:

 

FP4+ is a fairly fine grained film and it can be a little tricky to get noticeable grain from it. From the example you referenced it's kink of hard to tell if this is really grain or perhaps some digital artifacting. What you can tell from the photoraph is that he used a fairly high shutter speed since the raindrops are rendered rather sharply. The DOF can be explained with the use of a wide angle lens used at moderate apertures. Here are some things you can try to get an exaggerated grain effect from FP4+.

 

First, shoot 35mm film. If you are using medium format film, your final prints will have to be huge to get any grain effect at all. Rodinal is a good choice for this film, but a terrible choice for push processing. It will do nothing to soften the inherent grain of the film and produce the very sharpest negatives possible from your combination of lens, camera, and shooting technique. In some situations I need to downrate my film a little bit(about 1/3 stop) to get decent shadow detain with Rodinal. Contrast can go through the roof unless you can very carefully control the lighting - an impossible situation when street shooting. Sometimes you get lucky and the ambient light gods smile on you. Often the gods don't care and you don't get lucky. Finally, frame your subject loosely in the viewfinder. When you print, crop out the dead space. This means that you need more magnification for a given print size, and naturally it follows that more magnification equals more magnified grain.

[bj_bignell]

I stopped using FP4+ because the grain was disappointingly larger than I expected from a medium speed film. I switched to Delta 100, but realised later that it was my development technique, not the film.

 

Try it at 125, dev'ed in Ilfosol-S for the recommended time, but agitate the bejeesus out of it for 30s at the beginning, and for 10s at the top of every minute thereafter. It's not gonna have huge grain, but it's gonna be noticeable. You're gonna get a contrast boost too, because of the heavy agitation.

 

Or you can try it at ISO 400, dev'ed in Ilfosol-S for 9m (or so), using a similar agitation technique. You can see some examples here: http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=377927

[kenneth_bruno]

Hello Jason---

Easy: Overexpose FP4 one stop. Overdevelop by temperature, 72-75 deg.F, BUT reduce development time by 25-30%. Rodinal is good, D-76 is good, whatever. The warmer temp. will give you the grain. The reduction of time will keep highlights printable. Works like crazy.

Ken

[al_kaplan1]

Dektol paper developer will make for grainy negatives. You'll have to experiment for film speed and development times, and it works fairly fast. Back in the days of 4x5 press cameras some newspapers souped film with it.